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Topic: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp? (Read 16954 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #25 –
Quote from: John 31415926 on
I just read my first ever article by an objective audiophile discussing the idea that all amps, within comparable parameters, do the same thing and sound the same, regardless of price.  I had never heard that before.  I had always bought into the idea that one amp surely sounded better than another.  It's still a little hard to get my head around the idea that a $4,500 Mcintosh amp has the same effect on an audio signal as a $400 Onkyo ... but that is the argument that these so-called objective articles and blind tests make. 

It's not an argument, it's a statement of measured fact.  It is what we observe, as opposed to what some people believe without evidence.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #26 –
Quote from: antz on
The last paragraph above is phrased rather as though you dispute that "all amps sound the same". It's not really a belief that is "bought into", more a case of plain science.

Quote from: Ed Seedhouse on
It's not an argument, it's a statement of measured fact.  It is what we observe, as opposed to what some people believe without evidence.

That's the second such post, almost verbatim, to make this point on this thread.  Although the first one effectively continued on to articulate the whole concept point by point.

I don't want to inject a sour note into what has otherwise been a profitable and very helpful conversation (I really learn a lot from you guys) but hard statements like these sound to me as snobby and exclusive as subjective audiophiles sound fluffy and delusional.

The fact is, Ed, you may be speaking for yourself and a limited number of other people, but for me, it is not what "we" observe at all ... at least not yet.  I don't have time or interest (yet) to find a store that has all the low-end amps and all the high-end amps and do blind ABX tests for myself.  Nor do I even vaguely understand 80% of the specs referred to in this thread by people who are experienced and knowledgeable with audio measurements.  I know nothing about audio or electrical science.  So that shuts me out - at least at this point - of arriving at these conclusions by way of either blind listening tests or documented specs.

Perhaps hydrogenaudio is not a forum for amateurs or beginners in these matters?

I got to this point of asking what I consider to be more intelligent audio questions because someone wrote an article somewhere (maybe it was a post here on the forum) and made the simple statement that all an amp does is add electricity to an audio stream, thereby "amplifying" it, and, within the normal parameters, that's not a process that can be improved upon.

Therefore, all amps (given similar build quality and power specs) are equal. 

That was an argument someone had to walk me through, courteously and patiently, so I could follow it and finally agree - even without ever having any ABX or measured proof.  I know I can strengthen that conviction with listening tests or learning how to read these charts some of the other guys have presented here, but already now, I'm convinced by nothing more than a step-by-step argument presented by someone who didn't talk over my level of understanding or shut me out because I didn't understand "science".

You might even say that I believe this "without evidence".  I believe it because the argument makes sense.

Whenever I hear someone use a phrase like "the debate is over," or "this is a statement of measured fact" - without any regard for whether or not I've arrived at that conclusion for myself - I usually associate that kind of talk to someone who has no interest is winning me to the truth.

I'm 51 years old, reasonably intelligent, and only a few months ago was I ever exposed, for the first time ever, to the argument that all amps are basically the same.  I've since mentioned it around to a bunch of other people, and have yet to talk to even one person who has ever heard that argument before.  It seems the overwhelming number of people (at least people I've spoken to) have never given any thought to whether their amps were worth the money they spent.  They too were all about the subjective reputation of the brand name or the effectiveness of the advertisement.  Further, they've never even considered the simple idea that all an amp does is add electricity to an audiostream and that that is not a process that can be made "better" or "worse". 

The only reason I understand it now is because someone courteously argued it step by step until I understood it, without any measured specs and without two different amps around to compare.  I fully got it from just that.

And then, of course - after the fact - I can now read specs and do ABX tests all I want until the understanding is bullet-proof.

So a big THANK YOU to all the posters who go the distance and do the work to walk a guy through this stuff so I can benefit from your knowledge, even long before I completely understand it.  It will be a while before I can talk intelligently on your level, but I'm already now feeling good about spending around $1,800 less on an amp than I otherwise would have ... and I'm already feeling confident about the amp I will choose.

I really am humbled by the work some of you put into a post to help me understand something.

Case in point:

Quote from: ajinfla on
Then you need only an amp that can drive a 4 ohm load, since your speakers have a 3.5 minima at 111hz. There are countless of those without output filter issues. Something like this Yamaha for $300 new should do just fine.

ajinfla, I don't understand any of those specs, but I've got enough faith in what you're talking about to use your recommendation.  The Yamaha AS301 looks like everything I want - bass/treble, remote control, reputable manufacturer - and, I assume, a correct match for my speakers.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.



 

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #27 –
Quote from: John 31415926 on
ajinfla, I don't understand any of those specs, but I've got enough faith in what you're talking about to use your recommendation.  The Yamaha AS301 looks like everything I want - bass/treble, remote control, reputable manufacturer - and, I assume, a correct match for my speakers.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Don't overlook the variable loudness control.  I have an RX-460 which I purchased over 20 years ago and is still in use today.  I also have an RX-770 which allows access to the variable loudness control via the remote, though I normally also have to adjust the treble (along with the volume) when adjusting the loudness which isn't on the remote. :(

These receivers were made in Japan.  Time will tell whether or which products made in China will fare as well.  This isn't to say that I'm all that pleased with a certain guitar amplifier company in England for using cheap epoxy boards and not plating their through-holes.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #28 –
Quote from: John 31415926 on
The fact is, Ed, you may be speaking for yourself and a limited number of other people, but for me, it is not what "we" observe at all ... at least not yet. 

May I suggest the terms of use of this forum, *to* *which* *you* *agreed* in order to be permitted to post here.  Are you a person of your word or not?  Did you not read the terms of service before agreeing to them, and if not, why not?
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #29 –
Quote from: Ed Seedhouse on
Quote from: John 31415926 on
The fact is, Ed, you may be speaking for yourself and a limited number of other people, but for me, it is not what "we" observe at all

May I suggest the terms of use of this forum, *to* *which* *you* *agreed* in order to be permitted to post here.  Are you a person of your word or not?  Did you not read the terms of service before agreeing to them, and if not, why not?
I think what Ed is trying to say that your concept of "a limited number of other people" refers to this forum as a collective body which requires "observations" of perceived differences in sound quality to be supported by objective evidence.

*We* (hydrogenaudio) are not interested in what others "observe" or parrot if it doesn't comply with TOS8.

Quote from: John 31415926 on
at least not yet.
Hopefully sooner than later.  It would be a shame that your lack of acceptance of the need for requiring proper controls is being held up because you're put off by statements you deem to be "snobby and exclusive."

Quote from: John 31415926 on
... but that is the argument that these so-called objective articles and blind tests make.
You probably don't realize it, but there are people who find this somewhat offensive.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #30 –
My understanding of John's statement is that he has neither the equipment nor the knowledge necessary to test and make those observations, not that he disagreed with them.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #31 –
Quote from: andrew_berge on
My understanding of John's statement is that he has neither the equipment nor the knowledge necessary to test and make those observations, not that he disagreed with them.

Thank you, Andrew.

Spot on.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #32 –
Quote from: John 31415926 on
Quote from: andrew_berge on
My understanding of John's statement is that he has neither the equipment nor the knowledge necessary to test and make those observations, not that he disagreed with them.
Spot on.
I come at this from a different perspective: one shouldn't need the equipment or knowledge to test in order to be skeptical of unsubstantiated claims; rather, one needs to understand that the human perception of sound is fallible.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #33 –
Quote from: John 31415926 on
Therefore, all amps (given similar build quality and power specs) are equal.
No.
There is an example provided in this thread why that isn't so and why no technically literate person would claims so.
What can be said, is with linear amplifiers, not driven to clipping or instability into the load (speaker), no audible difference will be heard by ears. Barring pathological loudspeakers, there are a great many amplifiers out there that "amplify", rather than possess a "sound". Given your particular speakers, one such example is posited.

Quote from: John 31415926 on
ajinfla, I don't understand any of those specs, but I've got enough faith in what you're talking about to use your recommendation.  The Yamaha AS301 looks like everything I want - bass/treble, remote control, reputable manufacturer - and, I assume, a correct match for my speakers.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Unless you plan to listen at very high levels, it should be more than suffice. If you listen to radio, something like this or this could be an option.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #34 –
Quote from: andrew_berge on
My understanding of John's statement is that he has neither the equipment nor the knowledge necessary to test and make those observations, not that he disagreed with them.
I don't have a rocket to fly to the moon to see if it's made out of cheese either, per "observation"
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #35 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Unless you plan to listen at very high levels, it [Yamaha A-S301] should more than suffice. If you listen to radio, something like this could be an option.

Thank you, AJ.  Interesting that the amp with the receiver costs the exact same price as the AS301 you originally posted.  For the same money, of course I would take the unit with the radio included.

Again, I don't understand audio specs ... so can I borrow your expertise on this?  Again, specific to my Martin Logan Motion 40s, are there any other differences that I might concern myself with on these two units (the AS301 vs RS500)...?  It seems like the RS500 is a no-brainer since I get the added benefit of a radio receiver.  But I wonder if it has any other shortcomings (over the AS301) that offset that benefit?

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #36 –
Quote from: John 31415926 on
Again, I don't understand audio specs ... so can I borrow your expertise on this?  Again, specific to my Martin Logan Motion 40s, are there any other differences that I might concern myself with on these two units (the AS301 vs RS500)...?  It seems like the RS500 is a no-brainer since I get the added benefit of a radio receiver.  But I wonder if it has any other shortcomings (over the AS301) that offset that benefit?

Dr Floyd Toole once made the observation that there is more useful performance information on the side of a tire, compared to what’s currently found on most loudspeaker spec sheets. I did not quote a "spec" for your ML, by rather an independently measured parameter, the impedance minima, including frequency. As such either one of those amps would suffice as an "amplifier", the inclusion of more features such as radio, would perhaps increase the value of the latter.
Again, unless your listening requirements are for very high levels, both will "amplify" your around 90db sensitivity speakers  just fine.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #37 –
Thank you, AJ.

I'm off to Amazon to buy the RS500.

-JOHN

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #38 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I'm surprised that you are unaware of the usual audiophile aversion for tone controls.
I don't see how one can get satisfactory results over a variety of listening levels without tone controls.

I'm also unaware of any omniscient audiophiles who are able to reproduce the proper listening level and environment in order to achieve what was heard in the studio.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #39 –
Quote from: greynol on
Hey John, what happened to your Onkyo?

I'm swapping it out for a Yamaha.

Those Onkyo amps just don't sound as warm, persuasive, and colorful as a good Yamaha.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #40 –
Quote from: John 31415926 on
I don't know much about audio, but I do a hear a BIG difference in different amps, so I'll be shopping quality amps soon
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: John 31415926 on
THANK YOU for taking the time to help me and save me from making a costly decision that would not have solved my problem.
Good, I'm glad to see you did come to your senses.
Well maybe not for another 6 months.

Quote from: greynol on
Hey John, what happened to your Onkyo?
Quote from: John 31415926 on
I'm swapping it out for a Yamaha.

Those Onkyo amps just don't sound as warm, persuasive, and colorful as a good Yamaha.
Surely you must be joking by now.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #43 –
I love it!  I've got greynol worked up, not knowing if I've violated the rules or not.  The poor guy's on the edge of his seat, ready to slap me down or ban me if I say that Yamaha amps are more "warm, persuasive, and colorful" as Onkyos ... even after all the rational exchange of this thread.  Hilarious!

 :))

Don't worry, greynol ... you were being a wiseguy by unlocking and remarking on an unenlightened six month old comment I made about amps ... so I returned in kind.

Yes, I was only kidding.  Although I have yet to AB test them myself ... and even though I don't understand a single graph that might prove it numerically ... I'm convinced that no human ear can discern the difference between a similarly spec'd Onkyo and Yamaha.

Happy?     ;)

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #44 –
Let's just say you wouldn't have been the first person to waffle between rational and irrational thought and your opening post had global-warming denier written all over it. ;)

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #45 –
Boy, you just give people warm fuzzies with every post, greynol.

Some day I'll understand the frequent connection between higher knowledge and the loss of basic courtesy.  Then again, I might not really care to.  I recall in my own past when it felt good to be snarky and sarcastic, but I never really liked myself for it afterwards.

I guess some guys are wired for that and others aren't.

Anyway, I got my amp question answered and AJ helped choose my next amp for me. 

I got what I came here for.   8)

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #47 –
Quote from: John 31415926 on
Boy, you just give people warm fuzzies with every post, greynol.

Some day I'll understand the frequent connection between higher knowledge and the loss of basic courtesy.  Then again, I might not really care to.  I recall in my own past when it felt good to be snarky and sarcastic, but I never really liked myself for it afterwards.

I guess some guys are wired for that and others aren't.

Anyway, I got my amp question answered and AJ helped choose my next amp for me. 

I got what I came here for.  8)



What I see is that the poster who posts under the pseudonym John is now congratulating himself for his elaborate attack on all of  Hydrogen Audio by means of ridiculing Greynol.  Sincerity and honesty = 0.0000 .

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #48 –
Quote from: John 31415926 on
Quote from: antz on
The last paragraph above is phrased rather as though you dispute that "all amps sound the same". It's not really a belief that is "bought into", more a case of plain science.

Quote from: Ed Seedhouse on
It's not an argument, it's a statement of measured fact.  It is what we observe, as opposed to what some people believe without evidence.

That's the second such post, almost verbatim, to make this point on this thread.  Although the first one effectively continued on to articulate the whole concept point by point.

I don't want to inject a sour note into what has otherwise been a profitable and very helpful conversation (I really learn a lot from you guys) but hard statements like these sound to me as snobby and exclusive as subjective audiophiles sound fluffy and delusional.

For my part, it was not my intention to sound snobby and exclusive. It was merely an observation that your phrasing implied that you do not believe the evidence. If you reject the evidence after considering it, then you should provide evidence to the contrary. If you aren't sure about accepting it because you don't understand it, that's not something I'd criticise you for.

Re: How do "objective" audiophiles choose an amp?

Reply #49 –
A proper power amp ABX may be a bit tricky to set up, requiring a bit of hardware which you may never care to use again.

But you can certainly test the basic premise of such testing using line-level source components. In my case, I happened to have a couple of FM tuners. Plug each into a line-level input such that you can switch between them with a minimum of fuss.

Now here's the absolutely essential part: Level matching! I believe the standard for such things is to keep things within 0.1 db of each other. But I also recall a quote from Stereo Review's Larry Klein to the effect that this can be done by ear, and you know you've got it when you can no longer hear differences! If you want to do it double-blind, you might have someone else do the switching for you, but you may not need to go that far to experience a revelation.

If you are going with a receiver or integrated amplifier, may I suggest one which has a tape loop or other handy input/output jacks were an equalizer or MiniDSP can be inserted?  It'd be a rare speaker + room combo which doesn't benefit greatly from some correction. Would be super-handy if you could just use the room correction that's built into cinema receivers, but these functions may not be available unless you've got all 5.1 channels connected, at least that was true of my old Harman Kardon.