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Topic: Good quality souncard (Read 26112 times) previous topic - next topic
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Good quality souncard

Since the Videologic Sonic Fury or that Turtle Beach card don't seem to be available (anymore) in Europe, does anyone have a good alternative?
I just want high quality stereo output. Multichannel stuff and games compatibility is not important at all. Price: lower than 200 Euros preferably.
Thanks,

Menno

edit: sorry for the typo in the topic name

Good quality souncard

Reply #1 –
Of course it depends how you are going to use it.  Analog recording, playing back through analog system, SPDIF I/O, etc.?

I've been very happy with the Philips Acoustic Edge.  About $55 (US) at Buy.com.  I use the SPDIF out to my Hi-Fi and the analog out for my computer speakers / headphones.  Stable drivers (using WinXP Pro).  Should be available in Europe I would think.

I'm sure there are better performing cards, but this one works for me, especially at the price.
Was that a 1 or a 0?

Good quality souncard

Reply #3 –
Hm, yes, that Funcomputer also said they had it, now I can only hope I get my money back sometime....

But I'll have a look at these vendors, thanks.

Menno

Good quality souncard

Reply #4 –
For the experts out there: which cheap sound card would you recommend? And what else is wrong with Soundblasters aside from their resampling to 48khz?

I mean, the cards I've seen and read about are Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, Sonic Fury (which seems to be identical), Sound Blaster (any of them), and some cheap sound cards with digital outs connected to an external DAC.

I just want to listen to --alt-preset standard mp3 files. I probably do fine with the card that came with the system (actually, its built-in the mobo) Avance Logic AC97 or something like that. Connected to cheap PC speakers. Some day I will get a decent headphone. Some day I may plug this system to my stereo in the living room.

But I'll want to upgrade something soon, and I thought the sound card would be a good idea.


David

Good quality souncard

Reply #5 –
Maybe you are interested in one of the ENVY-24HT chip cards:
M-Audio Revolution
Terratec Aureon (Sky or Space)
Both support output at 24bit/192kHz at up to 8 channels. I don't know much about the first card, but the Terratec has a built-in headphone amp on the front-channel and should be available in europe easily. The price tag for the Sky (6 channel version) is about 120 €, so it's quite in your budget.

But for plain stereo output, there might be cheaper alternatives.

Good quality souncard

Reply #6 –
Quote
Hm, yes, that Funcomputer also said they had it, now I can only hope I get my money back sometime....

Ah yes, Fun Computer... some time ago, i returned a package to them (you can do that within 14 days after an online purchase here) and i had to wait 7 weeks (!) until i had my money back. But eventually, i got it all back, so don't worry and have patience...

Good quality souncard

Reply #7 –
Quote
For the experts out there: which cheap sound card would you recommend? And what else is wrong with Soundblasters aside from their resampling to 48khz?

Oh, a lot, trust me... you don't want a SB Live/Audigy in your system. Better buy something like the Hercules Fortissimo III.

Good quality souncard

Reply #8 –
Quote
For the experts out there: which cheap sound card would you recommend? And what else is wrong with Soundblasters aside from their resampling to 48khz?

Best budget soundcard recommendable is the Hercules Fortissimo III. It's got pretty damn got value for money.

Good quality souncard

Reply #9 –
Some time ago I look for an Terratec EW 24/96 and this card have all that I need. But now I see that it is not more available in Italy... Is the Terratec Aureon Sky better solution in sound quality (for recording and lissten analog?)

damjang

Good quality souncard

Reply #10 –
Quote
I don't know much about the first card, but the Terratec has a built-in headphone amp on the front-channel and should be available in europe easily.

Did you say Terratec Aureon 5.1 Sky and 7.1 Space has a built-in headphone amp? Are you 100% sure?

Good quality souncard

Reply #12 –
Quote
Quote
I don't know much about the first card, but the Terratec has a built-in headphone amp on the front-channel and should be available in europe easily.

Did you say Terratec Aureon 5.1 Sky and 7.1 Space has a built-in headphone amp? Are you 100% sure?
I too am interested. I downloaded the manual and there was one reference to a headphone amp:
Quote
From the manual:
An amplifier can also be activated in the ControlPanel for the front output (F), allowing it to be
used as a headphone output!
I'm wondering if anyone here has an Aureon Sky or Space and can confirm that this isn't some software gimmick. Also, has anyone seen any decent reviews of the cards yet?

Good quality souncard

Reply #13 –
Quote
For the experts out there: which cheap sound card would you recommend? And what else is wrong with Soundblasters aside from their resampling to 48khz?

David

From what I read from 3DSS Forum, SB Audigy 2 did not resample to 48kHz. The resampling only take effect if any effect (e.g. EAX) is turning on. This is due to their effect engine (which is in hardware) is limited to 16-bit/48kHz.

This means if u playback a 24-bit/96kHz music, SB Audigy 2 will play it without resampling if no effect is turning on.
Break The Rules!!!

Good quality souncard

Reply #14 –
According to what I've read, 44.1 KHz data is still resampled in Audigy 2, but not higher sample rate data.

Good quality souncard

Reply #16 –
Quote
According to what I've read, 44.1 KHz data is still resampled in Audigy 2, but not higher sample rate data.

In my understanding, yes, they are and also supporting 24/96k recording in dry mode.
Break The Rules!!!

Good quality souncard

Reply #17 –
NO, Audigy2 no. There are a way better M-Audio Revolution 7.1 and TerraTec Aureon 5.1 Sky / 7.1 Space. Only thing Audigy2 is better in is MIDI (these cards lack of MIDI features). Audigy2 eX will be whole different story, but current ones can't compete with Envy24HT. And also, Audigy2 drivers are complete bloatware, TerraTec and M-Audio are known as good soundcard makers, their drivers are generally good. Also, price of Audigy2 is nearly the same as Envy24HT-based soundcards, so it is better choice if you don't care about MIDI.

Good quality souncard

Reply #18 –
I have (had) a Philips Acoustic Edge, and I can't really say I recommend it. Mostly because it has bad drivers (hardly EAX compatible) and sound wierd in many games (NoLF2, UT2003).
  Secondly and probably more imporatant to you, it has static. I use a pair of fine Sony plugs and the Philips' background hissing gets very irretating. 
I only goes away when I touch the case, but I can't do that all the time! This might indicate that if my computer was grounded, this wouldn't be.

Bottom line: Philips are moderatly well designed, but have horrible drivers. So DON'T GET ONE! And if you do, get the cheapest of the Edges, thay are all the same, but with more surround and Digital in/outs.

  I was a bit courious about the Hercules cards, but couldn't buy one because the only have Optical digital-outs (Stupid huh?). Nobody uses optical, and many people use coax digital, so why? Don't know, but don't want one.

I also looking for a good soundcard but have yet to find one.
I want:
SB Audigy's games support (EAX3 please)
Turtle beach's quality
24/96 support (REAL)
and 7.1 full connections
Should that be so hard?
I willing to pay up to 120€ for such a card, but no-one whats to build me one.

Good quality souncard

Reply #19 –
Quote
SB Audigy's games support (EAX3 please)


HAHA. You want EAX support, you have to suffer Creative's stupidness and bugs. Since they created the API, and EAX3 isn't in DirectX and  is a closed proprietary format, forget about anyone else supporting it.

A better tip, use only DirectSound 3D. DO NOT support crappy proprietary retarded APIs that lock you into 1 vendor's hardware, especially when that vendor controls it.

Quote
24/96 support (REAL)
and 7.1 full connections


Those are available in the Revo and Aureon Space. Real 24bit 192kHz with no resampling even with 44.1kHz content. And 7.1 channels.

Good quality souncard

Reply #20 –
EAX3 is EAX2 with Reverb effect and new name... anyway, Revo and Aureons have EAX2, that's good enough, isn't it (if you add some Reverb effect, it is very near to EAX3  ).
You can get everything what you want except EAX3 if you buy Revo/Aureon. And you don't get CL's hardware bugs. Isn't it sweet;)?

What I want is:
Aureon/Revo characteristics + free DSP routing (like kX has for example) + MIDI and SoundFont support + ASIO2 (96/24 for recording and playback (Audigy2 doesn't have this) or any other samplerate) + EAX and GSIF would be nice.

Am I asking too much? Maybe Audigy2 Platinum eX + kX once it supports it can do everything I want... maybe.

Good quality souncard

Reply #21 –
RIV@NVX

EAX ADVANCED HD can also do continues audio movment between rooms, which is an awsome feature... and hd is starting to find acceptence amung game makers. a lot of new 3d games are suporting it.

Audigy2 Ex will support asio2 so you can add effects and record all while maintaing 24/96.

The EAX ADVANCED HD will still be 48khz though.

Good quality souncard

Reply #22 –
I'll add a reply here that I've also posted to some other people asking a similar question.

My experience (some gathered from my colleagues, most based
on my personal experimentation) is as follows:

PC HARDWARE ASSUMPTION
======================
I assume you are running this on PC hardware (either W32 or *nix
platform). I don't which sound cards have full and robust Linux
support, so you may not be able to use all of these on Linux. However,
all of the below limitations are hardware based and cannot be circumvented by moving from Win32 platform to *nix based

CREATIVE SOUND CARDS
====================
All Creative cards up to and including Audigy 2 (A2 Platinum eX being the sole exception)are based on the PC AC97 component specification. This mandates an internal mixer at 48 kHz and 16 bits. In theory this means resampling of most audio data (44.1 kHz, unless you use DAT at 48 kHz exclusively). This resampling is especially poorly done on creative hardware, resulting in sharp drop of high frequncies and in some cases, bad intermodulation distortion.

Pre-Audigy models are especially bad in their frequency response and
will have problems on most non-Intel motherboards, due to PCI latency
problems. In practise this will results in sound that stutters or
'crackles' while other PCI devices are used (high disk activity, network
activity or even video card activity).

You maybe able to circumvent stuttering/crackling playback by adjusting
the individual PCI latencies of each PCI device (Linux has a tool called
'setpci' and W32 has a software called PowerStrip, which is shareware).

You may encounter this same problem (albeit to a lower degree) with
other sound cards as well, especially on non-Intel chipset motherboards.
And no, this is not pro-Intel propaganda as I run Via/nVidia/AMD chipset
motherboards myself. It's just based on experience and is common
knowledge among sound card users.

If you use source sampling rate of 48 kHz exclusively then Audigy and Audigy 2
are ok. If you use 96 kHz exlusively, then Audigy 2 is ok.

AC97 RESAMPLING SOUND CARDS
===========================

Of the very cheap ones that still resample to the AC97 specification
at 48Khz (with associated THD, S/N, IMD problems, but less so than
others), but do it much better than many Creative cards:

- Videologic Sonic Fury, c. £40 GBP (aka TB Sante Cruz in the USA)

If you want to try and get along with a cheap sound card, you should
consider doing the resampling inside your computer software and not
inside the hardware of the soundcard. In fact, you can get pretty
decent results even with resampling, if it's done in software and
properly.

If youre sound sources are AIFF/PCM/WAV, then you can use a common free software like Winamp to play back the files using the Resampling output plugin. This will in fact greatly improve the performance of many
resampling soundcards by doing the resampling much more accurately in
software.

You can find this plugin for Winamp version 2 and version 2 only at:

http://www.blorp.com/~peter/zips/out_wave.zip

Virus free and fully working as I've tested it on 27th of Nov 2002.

Please be aware that some cards resample even the 48 kHz input and induce a lot of jitter in the process, resulting in less than stellar results at analog outputs.

NON-RESAMPLING SOUND CARDS
==========================

If you want to avoid resampling (and associated IMD, aliasing,
amplitude response and other problems) altogether, you need a sound card that can pass through bit perfect data at the sampling rate of your choice.

The cheapest ones that I know of currently are:

- CMI 8738 based cards (e.g. Ennyah DigiSound 8738). Does not resample 44.1 or 48 kHz to it's analog outputs. However, the analog section is limited to 65 dbA snr max and as such may not be enough for your use. I haven't tested one myself, so I cannot vouch for it's perceived performance (esp. in psychoacoustic use). Recommendations from others say that it should be enough for 'casual use' whatever that is. Cheap at c. £10.

- Zoltrix Nightingale. Doesn't resample, but I hear the analog stage is
really bad, so I cannot recommend this as I haven't tested it.
Inexpensive at £30. Only 44.1kHz playback!

The cheapest RELIABLE ones (drivers, analog stage, actual perceived
performance) that I know of are:

- Midiman DIO 2448. The cheapest sound card I have been able to find
that doesn't come with horrible resampling artifacts and is otherwise
decent. Works on Macs too. Cost c. £100.

- M-Audio Audiophile 2496, street price c. £150

- M-Audio Revolution (coming out in Dec). Really nice measurements in
the prototype card, even good enough for serious work. Street price c.
$99.

I know, not very cheap. However, that's the minimum you have to pay
for good sound quality for an add on PCI sound card.

ONES TO AVOID
=============
The ones to avoid:

- If flat frequency response and/or continues playback without noises +
low IMD matter, then I'd rule out all Creative cards, unless your
source is at 48kHz/96kHz, in which case Audigy/Audigy2 might do the
trick.

- Most integrated AC97 sound cards like C-Media types (IMD can rise up
really high) and nForce. Bad resampling artifacts, average dynamic range
and lots of tendency to hiss. I would rule this out completely

- Most obscure stuff (Avance, Ennyah, Hi-Val) you can't get measurements
for or for which no reliable user reviews exist.

- FM801 based sound cards (Terratec 512, 128, several others). In theory
can pass data through without resampling, but no drivers actually use
this AFAIK. Performance is greatly compromised in current known drivers.

HEADPHONE MATCHING
==================

Be also aware that if you are going to plug your headphones straight
into the amplified output of the soundcard, you may run into impedance
matching and amplification issues. In general this can mean up to +10 dB accentuated bass and highs, increased perceivable background noise and loss of dynamics
(i.e. not enough power to drive headphones that have too high impedance or are not efficient enough). This is very much dependent on the headphone of course. Beyerdynamic models tend to like higher output impedance (120 Ohm), but need more power to be driven without problems.

Sennheisers, Sonys and Grados should be *in general* (applies to most models I know) driven from near zero impedance outputs. Higher output will change the perceived tonal characteristics of the phone (i.e. amplitude response).

If you want a headphone that is almost immune to output impedance
changes, then AKG 240M is a decent choice. However, it is neither
very inexpensive nor easy to amplify (i.e sound cards cannot
drive it on their own).

In theory you should drive for near zero ohm OUTPUT impedance at the
sound card output. The problem is that none of the sound card makers
give out their headphone output impedance ratings. Even a 30 Ohm
difference can result in clearly audible increase in distortion,
depending on the headphone of course.

Please note also that the breakout box that some sound cards ship with (Creative Audigy, Hercules GTXP, Terratec DMX 6fire) contain a very rudimentary headphone amp, which is not of very high quality. These are implemented with cheap op-amps using the on-board 5 V rail (usually) and as such are limited both in voltage and amplification capability.

I've already blown the headphone amp section on my Terratec DMX6 fire breakout box when I used it to drive my HD600s at moderate levels (i.e. not loud).

I wouldn't recommend these for even semi-serious psychoacoustic work if working with just noticeable differences.


IN THE END
==========

If you don't have budget for c. $99USD cards, then I suggest getting the
Videlogic Sonic Fury and trying to use the resampling in software
(Winamp plugin if your source are files in AIFF/PCM/WAV).

That's the cheapest, decent quality, decently reliable and moderate
amount of tweaking combination I know of.

You must get a headphone amp to go with that or get a pair of headphones that matches the amplification capability of most sound cards (this can be tricky and is a subject for a whole new thread of it's own).

You can find somewhat old, but often useful measurements for many
soundcards at:

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/compare/index.htm

More results can be found at:

http://audio.rightmark.org/results.html

Be aware that the above measurements may not tell you everything you may need
to know about analog circuit noise immunity and performance under
varying conditions.

Street prices of many common sound cards in UK
http://uk.pricerunner.com/computing...undcards/browse

Good quality souncard

Reply #23 –
can anyone offer any advice about the Emagic card I asked about above?
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Good quality souncard

Reply #24 –
I have been very pleased with my M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 and Audigy.

Clearly they are for different purposes.

Audiophile for recording and high quality playback, Audigy for games.

I was pretty happy with the sound quality of my Santa Cruz, though the drivers were not all that stable in Counter-Strike  .

David