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Topic: History and Accreditation of ABX Testing/Invention? (Read 40345 times) previous topic - next topic
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History and Accreditation of ABX Testing/Invention?

Reply #75 –
Quote from: bobbaker on
Quote from: Rich B on
I'm not asking if you did the first test. I'm asking if you are the inventor of ABX. Not the switchbox.  Not the test. 

ABX.

Are you the inventor of ABX?

We can simplify the response:
a-yes, I did it all, everyone owes me credit.
b-no, I played a big role, but it was a group effort.
c-I don't like the choices, so I'll attack someone whose message I don't like.

EDIT: changed from simple yes/no


Classic move-the-goalpost deceptive post which I have fully and transparently answered and will answer again:

There were two vastly different projects -

(1) One was a relatively simple task of building the first Interactive ABX comparator for which a-yes, I did it all and then put the results into the public domain. People can give me whatever credit they will or not, but it would be kinda nice if they were honest about it, didn't lie to my face about it and call me a liar when I try to set the record straight. However, even this has already happened two or three times. Just shows that there are some very small, jealous, hateful people in the world, I guess.

(2) A highly ambitious and surprisingly successful attempt to use the ABX Comparator and its sequels to move the world of Audio towards reliable listening tests. At many times in this project I didn't play any role at all. For the 10 year period from 1985 to 1995 I almost completely abandoned ABX. I suspect that history has already shown that David L. Clark and the late Thomas Nousaine let that fight vigorously and effectively, especially by Clark in the 10 years after I turned my back on ABX, and by Nousaine for the approximately next 10 years after that. They both used ABX to advance their careers in audio which took a lot of work on their part. They didn't ask me for any help and I didn't give them any. ;-)

Why did I turn my back on ABX so fully for about a decade? For one thing, I was distracted by my day job in IT which was thriving. My family was at a critical age and needed my attention. I was dismayed and disgusted by the fact that there was so much resistance to the idea of reliable listening tests. I simply thought I had better things to do and I'll stand behind that decision today. But things changed, and I changed my mind.

History and Accreditation of ABX Testing/Invention?

Reply #76 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Classic move-the-goalpost deceptive post which I have fully and transparently answered and will answer again:

Arny, you like the “move the goalpost” deflection. The goalpost is the thread title. A directly relevant question is (since you have written “I invented ABX”): did you invent ABX? You have answered this many times in the past, but different ways at different times.

I accept your current answer below, but-
Quote
(1) One was a relatively simple task of building the first Interactive ABX comparator for which a-yes, I did it all and then put the results into the public domain. People can give me whatever credit they will or not, but it would be kinda nice if they were honest about it, didn't lie to my face about it and call me a liar when I try to set the record straight. However, even this has already happened two or three times. Just shows that there are some very small, jealous, hateful people in the world, I guess.

David Carlstrom (from SMWTMS and the ABX Company) also credits Bern Muller. What did he do?
Can you name a single “lie to your face”? I haven’t called you a liar (you like that word!) and never tried to take away the credit you deserve for the contribution you made. I don't like your answer “a-yes, I did it all and then put the results into the public domain.” Is David Carlstrom a liar, or did Bern Muller play a large enough role for him to say “Thus we credit Arny Krueger and his opponent in the argument, Bern Muller, as the inventors of the ABX Comparator.”? I am not small or jealous or hateful. But I don’t like when someone takes full sole credit for joint efforts.

The rest of your post, I like-
Quote
(2) A highly ambitious and surprisingly successful attempt to use the ABX Comparator and its sequels to move the world of Audio towards reliable listening tests. At many times in this project I didn't play any role at all. For the 10 year period from 1985 to 1995 I almost completely abandoned ABX. I suspect that history has already shown that David L. Clark and the late Thomas Nousaine let that fight vigorously and effectively, especially by Clark in the 10 years after I turned my back on ABX, and by Nousaine for the approximately next 10 years after that. They both used ABX to advance their careers in audio which took a lot of work on their part. They didn't ask me for any help and I didn't give them any. ;-)

Why did I turn my back on ABX so fully for about a decade? For one thing, I was distracted by my day job in IT which was thriving. My family was at a critical age and needed my attention. I was dismayed and disgusted by the fact that there was so much resistance to the idea of reliable listening tests. I simply thought I had better things to do and I'll stand behind that decision today. But things changed, and I changed my mind.

They used the ABX Comparator and its sequels to further the cause, and you returned to the cause after an understandable 10 year break. That's good news! No one (including me) wants to take away the verifiable contributions you did make, but you should retract “I invented ABX” as false, and stick with the facts you present here (even under duress). You can be proud of them, especially when you give credit to your collaborators.

I don't think I can get any further with you and I know you like the last word. As long as you don't lie or attack me, I'll stop posting.
Did you invent ABX?

History and Accreditation of ABX Testing/Invention?

Reply #77 –
Quote from: bobbaker on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Classic move-the-goalpost deceptive post which I have fully and transparently answered and will answer again:

Arny, you like the “move the goalpost” deflection. The goalpost is the thread title. A directly relevant question is (since you have written “I invented ABX”): did you invent ABX? You have answered this many times in the past, but different ways at different times.

I accept your current answer below, but-
Quote
(1) One was a relatively simple task of building the first Interactive ABX comparator for which a-yes, I did it all and then put the results into the public domain. People can give me whatever credit they will or not, but it would be kinda nice if they were honest about it, didn't lie to my face about it and call me a liar when I try to set the record straight. However, even this has already happened two or three times. Just shows that there are some very small, jealous, hateful people in the world, I guess.

David Carlstrom (from SMWTMS and the ABX Company) also credits Bern Muller. What did he do?


Bern and I argued the issue up to everybody's attention in an initially private conversion at a SMWTMS club meeting. The topic was the audibility of quasi-complementary versus full complementary output stages with me arguing for the "can hear" side based on my recent conversion to the dogmas of The Absolute Sound. We agreed that we wanted a DBT that was based on  same/different comparisons. The subject went cold for a number of months.

Then Clark (Club program chairman) called together a series of club staff meetings to discuss using DBTs as the focus for at least one club meeting.

Stimulated by that, on a classic rainy Detroit day in February/March I saw a possible relatively simple way to base the development an ABX Comparator on a  component I discovered in the miscellaneous parts bin of a local electronics surplus store where I routinely browsed. While I developed the first Comparator, like several others, Bern stood around and kibitzed. One day after several months and at least one failed attempt at a public amp DBT at a  bi monthly meeting  I showed up with a stable, useful device.

Several years later ABX had been the centerpiece of a number of successful club meetings and stopped being a curiosity. Bern decided that he wanted a Comparator of his own, so he tried to design and build one based on TTL logic and wirewrap construction. That device kinda worked but was not reliable enough to be a commercial product, so there was about another year's worth of development by about 5 people including myself of its various subsystems into a more-or-less commercial product.

The device portrayed in Clark's AES paper was the work of about 5 different people including myself, most who had attended the meetings that spurred the development of audio DBTs for club meetings.

There were a number of attempts to build a universal switchbox. Hum and noise were a serious problem. I eventually realized that the problem was one of ordering contact closures, and built a series of increasingly sophisticated relay boxes that were slaved to existing comparators. The final version I built was reliable but there were concerns about how the required fairly complex timing was implemented. Clark developed a new timing circuit that implemented the timing scheme that I had developed using analog comparators, and we had our final product. 

I don't think that Bern had anything to do with that stage except help assemble production products.