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Topic: What's the best way to record vinyl to CD? (Read 6582 times) previous topic - next topic
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What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Hi, I have a technics 1200 M3D turntable, a pioneer DJM-500 mixer (preamp), and a yamaha DSP-A1 receiver. I was wondering what would yield better recordings: 1, getting an ad/da converter and a cd burner and then taking the burned cd to my pc for editing; or 2, simply getting some nice sound card with an ad converter for my computer and plug it directly into my receiver, then editing, then burning off my pc's cd burner.
    My instincts tell me that it's best to leave out computer hardware as much as possible, isn't this true?
    I also plan to improve my turntable's rca cables, somehow, if possible. I want to ditch the standard ones and replace them with a detachable interface. Is this possible?

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #1 –
This webpage or that one should give you answers to most of your questions.

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #3 –
The link Jan provided is a pretty definitive site..  lots of good info there.  Worth looking for is
his software,  Wave Repair,  which he hardly mentions during all his software reviewing.  I think he's too modest!

You can get a copy that will run for 30 days,  then it will still record and do basics..  but it's well worth the low price.
I've been very happy with it.  I also use Cool Edit 2000,  with the plugin group that has the denoising tools..  they work well too.

The computer or not issue..  he covers that some..  basically I don't think there's a reason not to use the computer,
if you have a half way decent sound card.  And, for all but the most discriminative, "half way decent" would even include SB Live's
that you can get for $20-30 USD.  Better is better,  of course.  If you end up with some Creative or other card that runs 48Khz sample rate innternally,  I'd record your wav's at that rate,  for slightly larger but somewhat better quality and better card behaviour.
Recording at 24 bit and/or 96Khz is overkill for LP recording, IMO...

Overall,  you have the benifit of being able to do things (pop and crackle fixing,  editing options, etc) to your recorded stuff after recording when you are using a computer..  or at least you wouldn't have to do extra importing, converting, then exporting back out to your hardware only setup to do that.

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #4 –
for recording from a magentic cartridge LP player, you might want to find a phono preamp.
i dont think running through the receiver would be good, unless it is very clean. maybe connected to a line isolation filter.
and properly electrically grounded.
since your more than likely will be adding noise to the recording via the noisey PC. so the less added noise the better.

you might want to consider looking at Pristine Alien Connections for the recording software. it has realtime compression, many realtime options to help out.

also. i have read someplace. although i cant say for certain, but whoever it was recommended recording LPs at 32,000Hz, not 44.1, 48. dont rem why that was recommended, and I suppose you up sample and add dither to the recording.

i just record with a preamp through my linear Turntable. running Pristine and clean up with Sonic Foundrys' Sound Forge.

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #5 –
Well, recording at 32000Hz is quite useless, since resampling is a lossy process...
Better use 44100Hz or 48000Hz if you own a card which resamples at 44,1kHZ.

Another method to reduce artifacts in the whole file is, instead of deglitching whole file,
to select pops manually and then use click/pop reduction tool on them.
(esp. the one included in Cool Edit Pro v2 is great)
ruxvilti'a

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #6 –
Another thing - on both solutions you mentioned using an external A>D convertor. Given the standard of the rest of your equipment, this isn't really neccesary. If you were using super audiophile equipment, then maybe.


Just buy a reasonable sound card. If your receiver or mixer isn't good enough, get a dedicated phono stage too. Have you actually tried transfering an LP with the equipment you have? Depending on your existing sound card + receiver, you might be plesantly surprised at the results.

Cheers,
David.

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #7 –
Quote
also. i have read someplace. although i cant say for certain, but whoever it was recommended recording LPs at 32,000Hz, not 44.1, 48. dont rem why that was recommended, and I suppose you up sample and add dither to the recording.

You must have read it from an audiophile website. 

In answer to your question, the best AD conversion you can get would be to buy an external AD and hook it up to your computer through SPDIF, edit it there and burn to a CD. This is overkill, and I recommend you buy a nice internal stereo soundcard by M-Audio or Terratec. Don't forget to clean your records first. Also, as suggested, a separate phono preamp will help.

There is a lot of information about this already if you search the forum.

Destron

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #8 –
Noise might be an issue with an SB16 or an SB64 soundcard if your records are clean, not with an SB live or something better.

If you have a CD recorder, you don't need an external AD/DA converter. All CD recorders have analog in/outs of good quality.

You can replace the cable of the turntable if you disassemble it. But
1-You must get a well shielded cable with an extra wire for the ground connection
2-You must be extra careful removing the old cable and soldering the new, because the tiny wires of the turntable, that lead to the cartridge through the arm, are soldered at the same place, and they are very tiny.
3-You must consider the size and stiffness of the new cable, and if it will fit at the same place inside the turntable without moving any of the internal shieldings.
4-You must consider the capacitance of the cable and its lenght so as it doesn't interfere with the phono input capacity, that defines RIAA equalisation.
5-Cheap looking cables are OK for any use. In this thread, you can download the same sample recorded through 1-meter high-precision cables (RG179), and through the same, but with a cheapo 5 meters extension with plastic plugs in addition. 0.00 db measured loss. No audible difference for the people who listened to. Download samples 3 and 5.

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #9 –
I have been getting what I think are good results recording from the stereo amp to the PC, then burning CDs. Using the aforementioned Wave Repair to record and edit, works well for me. Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card. I find editing goes much faster on a PC with a faster processor (recently went from Pentium 300Mhz to 2.4 Ghz, saw a huge difference), and enough RAM (256 or more).

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #10 –
I've recently started archiving some of my parents' vinyls, by connecting them through the phono input of a Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96.

It's actually a very nice solution; recording can be done comfortably from Wavelab, software which comes with the soundcard, and they offer a DirectX plugin to do the RIAA equalisation (can be used in Cool Edit, too).
Also, they deliver with it a tool called Sonic Laundry or so, for pop-removal. Personally, I prefer to just leave the pops and noise in the recording. It saves a lot of time, and to me it sounds better than badly (too hastily) performed noise-reduction.
I do the recording in 24/44 mode. This way, I can just set the gain very loosely, recording at an average level of -30dB or so, while the highest music peaks don't even hit -12dB. Comfortable headroom

Some questions:
  • am I right to use the extra 8 bits in 24bit mode as headroom, or is this mis-thinking? It seemed logical to me; sounds at -30dB still have 19 bits at their disposal, right?
  • How can I evaluate the quality of the 6fire's phono preamp? It seems fine to me, but hey, I've just played with a turntable for the first time in my life...
  • During recording, I still get some clipping because even at 0dB gain, the biggest pops run off the scale. If I just leave in such (heavily) clipped parts to be put on CD, will that damage any equipment?
Anyway, apart from the quality, which I do not yet dare to judge, I can say Terratec have a comfortable package for doing this.

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #11 –
Quote
am I right to use the extra 8 bits in 24bit mode as headroom, or is this mis-thinking? It seemed logical to me; sounds at -30dB still have 19 bits at their disposal, right?


That is one way to do it, but since a record has less than 16 bits of data in it you should be able to record it at 16 bits with the same quality if you set the gain carefully. Your way is fine, it is just a small waste of space.

Quote
How can I evaluate the quality of the 6fire's phono preamp? It seems fine to me, but hey, I've just played with a turntable for the first time in my life...


Try comparing your recording to listening to the record through a stereo. Does the EQ seem right? Does the recording sound muffled?

Quote
During recording, I still get some clipping because even at 0dB gain, the biggest pops run off the scale. If I just leave in such (heavily) clipped parts to be put on CD, will that damage any equipment?


Sorry, I wouldn't know for sure, but I thought I might add that when I archive records, I manually fix those peaks that clip. I also prefer not to use any filtering software because it takes too long to run and because I do not want to degrade the quality of the recording.

Destron

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #12 –
Despite having 24 bits in the digital data, you'll probably find that the last 8 or so are largely filled with noise from the sound card.

So, that's 24 bits... -12dB loses you 2, leaving 22, lose another 8, leaves you with 14. That's probably OK for an LP. I think I'd turn the gain up if possible.


You mention that the Terratec has a phono input, but you're doing RIAA equalisation in software. If so, the Terratec doesn't have a phono input, it has phono connectors - that's the name of the socket itself (also known as RCA phono) - it doesn't mean it has the correct processing or equalisation for handling a phono cartridge input. Or, if it has, then you shouldn't be doing another RIAA Eq in software!

Assuming they're just standard phono connectors, giving a line-level (NOT phono) input, then you'd probably do better with a proper phono pre-amp.

Appologies if I've miss-understood your method. If you're applying the RIAA EQ curve twice (once in the sound card, and then again in DirectX software) then the result will sound VERY VERY muffled - like someone talking with their hand over their mouth. If you're not applying the RIAA EQ at all, then the result will have almost no bass, and will sound very tinny and crackly and hissy. Neither is correct! Hopefully you're just doing it the once (in software), and it sounds OK - it would be a little better doing it hardware (propper phono pre-amp) instead.


btw - in one place you said the max peaks are at -12dB, then later you said you often get clipping. ?! These two statements are contradictory.

If it's only clipping during a click or crackle (or where you drop the needle on the record), then don't worry about it (remove it if it's just where the needle hits the record at the start). If it's clipping during the music, then you need to prevent this for best results.


Cheers,
David.

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #13 –
Thanks for your answers, Destron and David. I thus conclude that I'm doing it more or less right

I guess I should do listening comparisons to see about the quality of the preamp, but I just don't have a trained ear for that. I rather trust graphs than my ears...
Probably, ten years from now, I'll feel educated enough to make judgements by ear. But I want to know about this preamp now

About the DMX 6fire: it does have a built-in RIAA filter in the break-out box, but that can be switched off. For recording to hdd, Terratec recommend that one bypasses the filter, to do the filtering in software. Since it only takes two or three extra minutes to perform that operation, I guess it's better done in software.

The clipping only occurs at pops and clicks. Peaks that belong in the music stay somewhere round -12dB. So I'm fine there, then
 

What's the best way to record vinyl to CD?

Reply #14 –
You can get examples of recorded vinyls here :

Vinyl vs CD samples
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....t=ST&f=1&t=2896

Vinyl noise samples
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=21&t=9050

Casual blind test
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=21&t=7953

Processing a CD sample so as to get it similar to vinyl
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....t=ST&f=1&t=7993


Edit : it's me again : http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame41.html