Skip to main content

Topic: Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail (Read 20094 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
  • greynol
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #100
A digital master (Redbook included) will be a technically superior source (in terms of even frequency response, available dynamic range, pitch stability, low distortion, within the audible band) than analog tape ever could be.

Have you ever heard any claims that vinyl now sounds better than it ever has thanks to hi-res digital masters?
  • Last Edit: 27 February, 2013, 05:12:27 PM by greynol
Please be aware that there is an expectation that you read and follow the rules.  It is not my job to teach them to you.

Your eyes cannot hear.

  • greynol
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #101
Even if it happens most of the time or a lot of the time or much of the time

It only has to happen regularly.

it seems at odds with the only things presented here from modern record companies.

Ahem, things?!?  Somehow examples given by David don't count?  Please realize that some of them even rise above the level of anecdote.

When Porcus calmly asked a moderator to explain his statement that "AFAIC, opinions about what constitutes professionalism from a non-professional should be dismissed."

First, he didn't ask me to explain anything.  Second, calmly?  How can you divine such a thing?  Was it because he told me to "C'mon"?  No, he chose to ask me if my statement should be taken out of the context of this discussion.  I chose to ignore his off-topic troll-bait.

Look, there hasn't been one active person in this discussion to agree with you on just about anything having to do with your outrage that vinyl may have been pressed from redbook.  I suggest you cut your losses now.
  • Last Edit: 27 February, 2013, 05:34:26 PM by greynol
Please be aware that there is an expectation that you read and follow the rules.  It is not my job to teach them to you.

Your eyes cannot hear.

Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #102
Even if it happens most of the time or a lot of the time or much of the time

It only has to happen regularly.

it seems at odds with the only things presented here from modern record companies.

Ahem, things?!?  Somehow examples given by David don't count?

When Porcus calmly asked a moderator to explain his statement that "AFAIC, opinions about what constitutes professionalism from a non-professional should be dismissed."

First, he didn't ask me to explain anything.  Second, calmly?  How can you divine such a thing?  Was it because he told me to "C'mon"?  No, he chose to ask me if my statement should be taken out of the context of this discussion.  I chose to ignore his off-topic troll-bait.

Look, there hasn't been one active person in this discussion to agree with you on just about anything.  I suggest you cut your losses now.


It can't even be said that it happens regularly.

Yes, things. Kees de Visser's example was a thing as well. The example of the Beatles was 24/44.1...that is not by definition Redbook. Golly gee, I wish you'd just be honest in your responses because I know you knew that.

"...taken out of the context of this discussion." What was the context then? You're seemingly incapable of ignoring a legitimate question unless it's "ignore through condescension."

By "one active person" you must mean people who will take the time to return to this mess of insults presided over by yourself. I count at least three who tried to add productively to my side of the issue. David, who disagrees, in my opinion has tried as well without resulting to childishness, arrogance, and insult.

I suggested that you step down since you can't act like a moderator, moderate insults, or stop with your petty grudges against certain members who've crossed you in the past. That's not going to happen though due to your ego and refusal to just say "I'm sorry for insulting you instead of moderating" (unless you're amending a comment long after you've made it in an attempt to cover yourself over insults. That's not a conspiracy; anyone can go back in the thread and see it along with your edits of almost everything for whatever reason.)

If by "cutting your losses" you also mean not answering one more word of Kruger's or your condescending, arrogant, and insulting shit in this thread consider it as of now done. I know you really mean you don't want me to reply to this thread any further. Done.
The Loudness War is over. Now it's a hopeless occupation.

Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #103
Monty notes in http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml,  than analog tape has at best 13-bit performance, and that's including noise reduction.


Maybe yes, maybe no.

I'm under the impression that the latest technology high speed wide track analog tape without noise reduction can achieve approximately 11 or 12 bit performance (66-72 dB). Dolby SR noise reduction is claimed to improve that by 25 dB for a total of 91 to 97 dB. That corresponds to 15-16 bits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_SR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reel-to-reel_..._tape_recording

"In the late 70s there was also the German Telefunken-made HighCom NR system, a broadband compander, which was technically very advanced and reached a signal-to-noise ratio in the range of a CD (approximately 100 dB)."

  • greynol
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #104
Look, there hasn't been one active person in this discussion to agree with you on just about anything.

I edited that long before you made your reply, perhaps only a minute or so after my initial post.

It reads:
Quote
Lookm there hasn't been one active person in this discussion to agree with you on just about anything having to do with your outrage that vinyl may have been pressed from redbook.

...and it still is 100% true.
Please be aware that there is an expectation that you read and follow the rules.  It is not my job to teach them to you.

Your eyes cannot hear.

  • greynol
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #105
Anything else being argued (the game is rigged, the moderator is a cheat, people are being mean to me) are all diversions of the real issue at hand: this entire thread stemmed from the religious belief that redbook isn't good enough to source vinyl.
Please be aware that there is an expectation that you read and follow the rules.  It is not my job to teach them to you.

Your eyes cannot hear.

Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #106
"...just interpreting the technical papers would be well beyond your competence with audio technology, as basic chores as they are." ...arrogance is one thing. My only response to this (since it's going unmoderated as well) is you can take your past psychoanalysis, present English-lesson, and this little morsel here and shove them. You must be a sad little man if you think you know people based on some internet comments. If I were to sit and pretend I know who you are and what you're capable of I'd first ask you if you even went outside yet today.


Out of context quote followed by an attempt at a diversion from the issue at hand.

What I actually wrote is:

"Just guessing, but I suspect that doing the lab work or even just interpreting the technical papers would be well beyond your competence with audio technology, as basic chores as they are."

Operative words being guessing and suspect

The anger that was tapped by mere guessing and suspicion pretty much answers any questions I may have had.
  • Last Edit: 27 February, 2013, 07:00:37 PM by Arnold B. Krueger

  • greynol
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #107
Out of context quote followed by an attempt at a diversion from the issue at hand.

I see I'm not the only one noticing a pattern.
Please be aware that there is an expectation that you read and follow the rules.  It is not my job to teach them to you.

Your eyes cannot hear.

Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #108
It reads:
Quote
Lookm there hasn't been one active person in this discussion to agree with you on just about anything having to do with your outrage that vinyl may have been pressed from redbook.

...and it still is 100% true.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_mastering

"From the 1950s until the advent of digital recording in the late 1970s...."

The format of the recordings used for digital mastering in those days ranged from 44/16 to 50/16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_recording

"In 1978, Sound 80 Records of Minneapolis records "Flim and the BB's" (S80-DLR-102) directly to digital before pressing the vinyl LP. The mastering engineer is Bob Berglund. The recording system is a 3M Digital Audio Mastering System."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundstream

"
Soundstream Technical Specifications
Frequency Response   Flat from 0 Hz to 21 kHz
Total Harmonic Distortion   Less than 0.004% at 0VU
Signal-to-Noise Ratio   Better than 90dB RMS, Unweighted
Dynamic Range   Better than 90dB RMS, Unweighted
Crosstalk   Less than -85dB
Sampling Rate   50,000 per second
Digital Format   16 bits linear encoding / decoding
"

http://www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf
'
Those were the final specs, commercial recordings were produced on earlier versions that used 37.5 and 42.5 KHz sampling

Mitsubishi Pro-Digi X-80 used in Japan for LP mastering was based on a 50.4 KHz sampling rate

http://mixonline.com/TECnology-Hall-of-Fam...8-EM-Mastering/

The 3M Digital mastering system was 16-bit, 50 kHz audio, contingent on a critical manual adjustment that was often done incorrectly.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7417193-post18.html
"regarding our GZ Vinyl processing methods: all source WAV/AIFF files, CD-Audio discs, DAT tapes or DDP files are carefully checked by our operators with a help of our dedicated vinyl mastering software."

http://www.duplication.ca/indexae.htm
"
We can work from the following sources:

CD
Vinyl (playback on Linn LP12 turntable)
Audio cassette
Minidisc
1/4" half-track reel-to-reel tape at 15, 7.5, and 3.75 inches per second.
DAT
WAV, AIFF, MP3 and any almost other computer file (24-bit files preferred if processing required)
Vinyl Mastering

The ideal source today for vinyl is 24bit WAV or AIFF files at 44.1 or 48kHz sampling rate..."

http://productionadvice.co.uk/vinyl-mastering/

"Regardless of what you may have been told, most vinyl these days is cut directly from a CD production master – and it’s been that way for years."

http://gottagrooverecords.com/faq/

"f you are providing your audio master in a digital form, we prefer either 24 bit wav files (if uploaded via our website) or a data disc containing either wav files or (at the least) redbook format (16 bit) audio. "

http://www.alphavinylrecordpressinginc.com...-vinyl-records/

"It is common today to have masters on CD, we can cut off 24 bit data CDs (our preference) as well as 16 bit audio, these are most common."

etc.


  • krabapple
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #109
Emil Berliner Studios has re-introduced vinyl mastering a few years ago.
One of the options is direct-to-disc vinyl, which seems to offer higher-than-redbook quality audio, at least in theory.
Looking at their analogue suite equipment, it seems also rather likely that hi-res audio is quite common. Plenty of DAW's and analog gear.

http://www.emil-berliner-studios.com/en/vinyl.html
http://berliner-meister-schallplatten.de/en/direct_to_disc



I'm not familiar with exactly what DTD offers in theory, but I see nothing on that site at that suggests 'higher-than-redbook' quality for their DTD vinyl. 

'Higher than redbook quality' would mean, to me, at minimum, a dynamic range better than ~96dB, a ruler-flat frequency response from 0 to beyond ~20 kHz, as well as the zero interchannel bleed, perfect pitch stability and ultra-low distortion offered by CDs

Their DTD vinyl products *might* have one of those, but all of them?
  • Last Edit: 28 February, 2013, 11:43:57 AM by krabapple

Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #110
Emil Berliner Studios has re-introduced vinyl mastering a few years ago.
One of the options is direct-to-disc vinyl, which seems to offer higher-than-redbook quality audio, at least in theory.
Looking at their analogue suite equipment, it seems also rather likely that hi-res audio is quite common. Plenty of DAW's and analog gear.

http://www.emil-berliner-studios.com/en/vinyl.html
http://berliner-meister-schallplatten.de/en/direct_to_disc



I'm not familiar with exactly what DTD offers in theory, but I see nothing on that site at that suggests 'higher-than-redbook' quality for their DTD vinyl. 

'Higher than redbook quality' would mean, to me, at minimum, a dynamic range better than ~96dB, a ruler-flat frequency response from 0 to beyond ~20 kHz, as well as the zero interchannel bleed, perfect pitch stability and ultra-low distortion offered by CDs

Their DTD vinyl products *might* have one of those, but all of them?

The process before the vinyl should have be capable of all of those characteristics since there is no intermediate storage medium. The disc itself, yes, will not. I think the real advantage to this process is a musical one rather than a technical one - it's pretty fun going straight to two track with decent musicians when they have to give their all and can't rely on studio wizardry to "correct" the human performances.

  • krabapple
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail
Reply #111
The process before the vinyl should have be capable of all of those characteristics since there is no intermediate storage medium. The disc itself, yes, will not. I think the real advantage to this process is a musical one rather than a technical one - it's pretty fun going straight to two track with decent musicians when they have to give their all and can't rely on studio wizardry to "correct" the human performances.



But no one disputes that vinyl can be and has been cut from 'hi rez' masters .  The only dispute here, if any, is how often this happens, and whether this has any audible benefits when the rock is scraped over the plastic disc in the listener's home.


As for the excitement of direct to disc performance, well, for me it would depend *a lot* on who is doing the playing, and what the music is.  As a player myself, I'm not all that enamored of listening to live mistakes.  I make enough of them on my own, thanks 
  • Last Edit: 28 February, 2013, 12:05:21 PM by krabapple