Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

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Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #50 – 2012-04-07 00:20:13

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To determine the actual deformation-force relations, complex groove impedances have been measured as a function of tracking force, groove speed, etc.

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At high bearing loads complete plastic flow sets in and the needle leaves a permanent indentation track, while at lower loads the elastic deformation is predominant.

Exactly my contention versus categorical statements by those arguing from authority. Thanks.

It would be nice to know from the original paper what they found to be the tracking force where elastic deformation is dominant vs. permanent deformation.

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I'm just pointing out that your belief that the practice is harmless is not supported by the facts.

I still play records wet with good results that I have owned and played back wet since the late sixties and early seventies.
If there is any harm, then it is offset by reducing problems with static, a record that is cleaned during playback etc.
It should also be mentioned that the development of heat during the playback is likely significantly reduced by a cooling agent, be it water alone or in a mix of alcohol (isoprop), thus further reducing the risk of permanent deformation.

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Repeated playback (no matter what the timeframe) carries the risk of permanent damage. Obviously, records are observed to wear out with repeated play. No published evidence exists of back-to-back playback causing any more permanent damage than if repeated plays are separated by any longer period of time.

from the horses mouth itself: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...inyl_has_cooled

As to plasticizers in pvc:

I could not find any reference as to what plasticizers are used in PVC specifically for vinyl records. Or that Vinyl acetate was specifically used at all.

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http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002...010508/abstract

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Polyvinyl chloride acetate (PVCA) is a thermoplastic copolymer of vinyl chloride and vinyl acetate.[1] It is used in the manufacture of electrical insulation, of protective coverings (including garments), and of credit cards and swipe cards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride_acetate

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. The most common plasticizers are derivatives of phthalic acid. The materials are selected on their compatibility with the polymer, their low volatility, their low toxicity, and their cost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chl...er_applications

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Copolymers of ethylene and vinyl acetate (E-VA) of a certain composition can be used for the improvement of impact properties (elasticisation) of PVC as well as under certain conditions (grafting) for the preparation of flexible PVC (plasticisation). Products of interesting properties are prepared by blending E-VA (up to ∼ 12%) with PVC or more advantageously by grafting vinyl chloride on special E-VA types. Graft copolymerisation by the suspension method allows the synthesis of E-VA/PVC systems in all ratios (up to 80% E-VA); these polymers are compatible over the whole range in contrast to the blends.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002...010508/abstract

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Plasticizers
It has been claimed that some plasticizers leach out of PVC products. However plasticizers do not readily migrate and leach into the environment from flexible vinyl articles because they are physically and tightly bound into the plastic as a result of the heating process used to make PVC particles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride

So again the study by the so called scientists by Discwasher seems to be more than flawed and not worthy any consideration imo.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #51 – 2012-04-07 02:14:59

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To determine the actual deformation-force relations, complex groove impedances have been measured as a function of tracking force, groove speed, etc.

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 00:20:13

It would be nice to know from the original paper what they found to be the tracking force where elastic deformation is dominant vs. permanent deformation.

The answer is in the first quote above: It Depends.
It depends on the stylus profile, cantilever mass, suspension compliance, room temperature, "groove speed", and the actual vinyl composition.
As for figures, this area has been well studied. For example: "... we know that stylus pressure per square centimetre is on the order of tons, and that a permanent deformation of the groove is produced under static conditions. Dynamically, the values can vary by more than 12 tons/cm2, positive values causing defomation of the groove wall and negative values causing mistracking." - Jean Hiraga, 1978.
The best advice is to aim towards the maximum recommended tracking force given by the manufacturer of your stylus. Damage caused by high stylus pressure is less noticeable than damage caused by mistracking. I've found several articles in my files containing Scanning Electron Microsocope photos of groove damage caused by various mechanisms.

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 00:20:13

It should also be mentioned that the development of heat during the playback is likely significantly reduced by a cooling agent, be it water alone or in a mix of alcohol (isoprop), thus further reducing the risk of permanent deformation.

Most of the heat is produced inside the groove walls by the pressure of the stylus deforming the vinyl, not the friction of the stylus against the walls. The presence of a cooling agent has little effect.

As to plasticizers in pvc:

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 00:20:13

I could not find any reference as to what plasticizers are used in PVC specifically for vinyl records. Or that Vinyl acetate was specifically used at all.

For me, the evidence was that Discwasher found large quantities of acetic acid on the disc surface. Acetic acid is one of the precursors for vinyl acetate.
Apart from the Discwasher mention, there is:

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... records are a complex chemical mixture including 85% polyvinyl chloride (PVC), 15% polyvinyl acetate (PVA), antistatic agents, dyes, stabilizers (heavy metals such as lead stearate), modifiers and lubricants. PVA, the exact chemistry of which varies among companies, both aids in the flow of vinyl during record pressing and as a plasticizer. Plasticizers play a critical role in softening the plastic/resin.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue38/lp_sleaves.htm
I recommend this discussion for those interested in optimal storage of LPs. Also Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_disc_records_preservation

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Plasticizers
It has been claimed that some plasticizers leach out of PVC products. However plasticizers do not readily migrate and leach into the environment from flexible vinyl articles because they are physically and tightly bound into the plastic as a result of the heating process used to make PVC particles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride

Proof that PVC plasticisers leach out with some alacrity is probably available in your own home, if you have plastic cables (equipment cables, mains extension cables) that have been in contact with acrylic painted surfaces. The plasticiser dissolves the paint and welds the cable and paint surface together, peeling the paint when the cable is moved. Also note that when you buy equipment with flexible leads and polystyrene packaging, the leads are packed in polythene bags. This isn't because it looks pretty, it's because the plasticisers also attack polystyrene. Finally, PVC is no longer used in "cling film" food wrappng because the plasticisers were found to leach out into the food, especially foods containing fats.

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 00:20:13

So again the study by the so called scientists by Discwasher seems to be more than flawed and not worthy any consideration imo.

I think the last word of your sentence is the operative one. Facts are less partial.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #52 – 2012-04-07 03:56:19

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Most of the heat is produced inside the groove walls by the pressure of the stylus deforming the vinyl, not the friction of the stylus against the walls. The presence of a cooling agent has little effect.

What does it matter where the heat is produced? If the groove wall gets deformed, the resultant heat will still be dissipated faster with a cooling agent present than without. And the cooling agent is in the groove after all. I do not understand your argument.

By your logic water surrounding a combustion motor cylinder will not help dissipate the heat because the heat is produced inside the cylinder?

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For me, the evidence was that Discwasher found large quantities of acetic acid on the disc surface

Evidence by Discwasher is tainted, biased and therefore useless. Show me proper analysis of what is found with proper ph readings and I might be convinced. Other than that - hearsay.

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including 85% polyvinyl chloride (PVC), 15% polyvinyl acetate (PVA), antistatic agents, dyes, stabilizers (heavy metals such as lead

I tried to find evidence concerning the composition of record grade vinyl, and could not find among the sources (several google pages) any that clearly defines what is included, even the one I linked to is fairly vague.
I looked into the chemistry of polymer vinyl acetate and some references were made to various products using this in conjunction with chlorinated form of vinyl polymer, but no clear indication of its use.
The author linked to fails to supply any sources, so I will not accept his statements just now. The same goes for Wikipedia, no sources linked to support that statement.

Jean Hiraga, 1978: having read statements concerning tube amps by Hiraga, I have some difficulty accepting him as a serious source.

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The plasticiser dissolves the paint and welds the cable and paint surface together, peeling the paint when the cable is moved

I have no experiential references to your statement. I do not know what you are talking about.
The worst thing that I found regarding plasticizers is the deteriorating foam of old SLR cameras ( I collect pentax slrs, for use, not show) >40 years old.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #53 – 2012-04-07 04:16:10

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 03:56:19

I have no experiential references to your statement. I do not know what you are talking about.
The worst thing that I found regarding plasticizers is the deteriorating foam of old SLR cameras ( I collect pentax slrs, for use, not show) >40 years old.

IF we are to build knowlege, we must build on what others do that has been tested and verified, stuff like understanding that wet playing is hard on records, and that groves do deform due to accileration alone in vinyl playback. It is, after all, despite your faux skepticism, nothing but physics.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #54 – 2012-04-07 06:53:42

Quote from: Woodinville on 2012-04-07 04:16:10

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 03:56:19
I have no experiential references to your statement. I do not know what you are talking about.
The worst thing that I found regarding plasticizers is the deteriorating foam of old SLR cameras ( I collect pentax slrs, for use, not show) >40 years old.

IF we are to build knowlege, we must build on what others do that has been tested and verified, stuff like understanding that wet playing is hard on records, and that groves do deform due to accileration alone in vinyl playback. It is, after all, despite your faux skepticism, nothing but physics.

What bothers me with your posts is the categorical "knowing better" attitude, that apparently prohibits you from answering question other than by arguing from authority or flatly denying there is any benefit to the question in a fairly arrogant manner, called "besser wisser" in german.
The discussion regarding wet/vs dry playing is far from settled, and there are arguments for and against it, especially considering the claims regarding chemistry of vinyl that are far from certain and depend very much on each manufacturers formulation. We are not just talking physics here, we are talking chemistry and material science, complicating the issue.

The same is true for the deformation, elastic or otherwise that depends on the design of the tonearm, cartridge mass, tracking weight etc. If you want to ignore those parametres and how they change the actual wear and tear on a record - why do you even participate? Just to piss on everybody else who has questions?
For me the "certain" claims as to behaviour are far from settled, as this discussion should show. We have contrary to questions like the non falsifiability of time dilation or even the calculations of the acceleration of mass in a gravitational filed no definite proof of any of your contentions regarding the material science, chemistry and its effect on the physical behaviour of a stylus on a record surface.

It is simply wrong just to categorically state that wet playing is "hard" on records, based on biased not very scientific research, ignoring the positive aspects.

But hey, why should you stop ignoring my arguments, you have been doing fine so far.

For some reason the name Sheldon comes to mind.....and thanks for the "faux" skeptic.
On other forums I participate in that would be equal to a Godwin....

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #55 – 2012-04-07 07:59:21

Just a last note:
I know that my decades long experience with replaying vinyl "wet" is only considered anecdotal, but I have to my own satisfaction confirmed that the records I own for the last 45 - 40 years are still very playable, and that the not so fine grained spectrum displays both in foobar and the previously owned deq 2496 show me a frequency band that in good recordings - well mastered - reaches from 20 Hz to at least 18 kHz, on a well used test record even almost ruler flat from 20 - 20 kHz on pink noise, despite some surface noise and the inevitable wow/flutter inducing some wobble of the display .

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #56 – 2012-04-07 08:15:46

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 06:53:42

The same is true for the deformation, elastic or otherwise that depends on the design of the tonearm, cartridge mass, tracking weight etc. If you want to ignore those parametres and how they change the actual wear and tear on a record - why do you even participate? Just to piss on everybody else who has questions?

I didn't say to ignore anything, please tell the truth in the future.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #57 – 2012-04-07 10:26:47

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 03:56:19

... What does it matter where the heat is produced? If the groove wall gets deformed, the resultant heat will still be dissipated faster with a cooling agent present than without. And the cooling agent is in the groove after all. I do not understand your argument.

How fast the heat is dissipated doesn't affect the damaged caused. Take two identical discs. Play a blowtorch over them for a few seconds. Throw a bucket of water over one, leave the other to air cool. Which one suffers the most damage? It could also be argued that rapid cooling increases the stresses and damage to the vinyl, as it does to many other materials.

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 03:56:19

By your logic water surrounding a combustion motor cylinder will not help dissipate the heat because the heat is produced inside the cylinder?

Your logic is faulty. The combustion temperature in the cylinder will be the same whether there is a water jacket or not, just as the groove wall temperature reaches the same level whether wet played or not. Where your logic falls apart is when you count the number of cycles per second. Does a motor cylinder need water cooling if it only experiences one combustion cycle per 20 minutes or so?

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 03:56:19

Evidence by Discwasher is tainted, biased and therefore useless. Show me proper analysis of what is found with proper ph readings and I might be convinced. Other than that - hearsay.

Discwasher had to prove that the effect was real and that their product minimised it in order to obtain their patents. You, on the other hand, have only your own experience with no evidence. For example, your record collection is not duplicated, with one set played wet and one dry, with logging of the differences over the years.

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 03:56:19

Jean Hiraga, 1978: having read statements concerning tube amps by Hiraga, I have some difficulty accepting him as a serious source.

You appear to be unaware of his work on the interactions between the various parts of a turntable playing a record. It was well researched and mathematically rigorous. But it was uncontroversial and therefore unmemorable except to those working in the field. I learnt of his work after finding him quoted as a reference by later workers.

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The plasticiser dissolves the paint and welds the cable and paint surface together, peeling the paint when the cable is moved

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 03:56:19

I have no experiential references to your statement. I do not know what you are talking about.

Your lack of experience with a phenomenon does not mean it does not exist. The effect of PVC sheathed wiring on polystyrene foam is especially annoying to those who collect vintage gaming consoles and home computers. Those still with their original packaging are sought after, but all too often they were used and then packed away with the cables in contact with the polystyrene packaging popular at the time. The resulting damage lowers their value. As for the plasticisers in cling film, you can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_wrap and continue with the references at the bottom of the article.

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-07 03:56:19

The worst thing that I found regarding plasticizers is the deteriorating foam of old SLR cameras ( I collect pentax slrs, for use, not show) >40 years old.

I reluctantly retired my own SLR when the foam on the mirror frame disintegrated. Even after a thorough cleaning, occasional flecks kept appearing on the film so I couldn't trust it for critical work any more. Deteriorating foam has had a large effect on the audio scene as well. It's also a problem in the vintage mainframe and personal computer world, where foam was often used for sound deadening and air flow management.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #58 – 2012-04-07 10:37:29

Quote from: splice on 2012-04-07 02:14:59

...I recommend this discussion for those interested in optimal storage of LPs...

Thanks for those links, splice.

I've been following this (sometimes heated) discussion and find it interesting. I'm grateful for any good direction in preserving vinyl and getting the best out of it (or as good as reasonably possible.) I wish it were as easy as CDs

...anyway. Carry on.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #59 – 2012-04-07 11:31:59

Quote from: splice on 2012-04-07 10:26:47

Deteriorating foam has had a large effect on the audio scene as well.

Like in woofer suspensions disintegration which, AFAIK, in the long terms is caused much more by aging than by the mechanical stress of (reasonabily proper) playing.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #60 – 2012-04-07 21:36:22

Quote from: Nessuno on 2012-04-07 11:31:59

Quote from: splice on 2012-04-07 10:26:47
Deteriorating foam has had a large effect on the audio scene as well.

Like in woofer suspensions disintegration which, AFAIK, in the long terms is caused much more by aging than by the mechanical stress of (reasonabily proper) playing.

Yeah, I thought about pointing that out, but I don't think facts are the issue in this discusson. I've had several older speaker designs I've done fail by foam-blowout. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #61 – 2012-04-08 12:54:00

Quote from: krabapple on 2012-04-06 20:49:15

and, btw, the AES e-library is free to search. Results are returned with abstracts.

e.g. 'vinyl' gets 293 hits, here's a few I foudn particularly interesting:

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The Limiting Tracking Weight of Gramophone Pickups for Negligible Groove Damage

It has been observed that when spherical styli are dragged over flat vinyl surfaces, scratches are produced under loads considerably exceeding the elastic limit as calculated from theory. The author, in this paper, describes the results of his experiments which bear out his argument that under load the point of yield begins below the surface; and reaches the surface, producing visible tracks, only after the calculated yield load is exceeded. This critical value of load for styli of various radii has been measured and found to be equivalent to, for a 1-mil stylus, 0.64 gm. for a 90° record groove. No size or skin effect was found with the vinyl material tested.

Author: Barlow, D. A.
Affiliation: Aluminium Laboratories, Ltd., Banbury, Oxon., England
JAES Volume 6 Issue 4 pp. 216-219; October 1958

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Groove Deformation and Distortion in Recordings

The elastic and plastic deformation of vinyl record compound under indenters of various profiles has been studied in large-scale tests. Curves of total depth of penetration versus load have been used to calculate the net distortion on record playback. In general, in the lower treble, net distortion is less, and in the upper treble, net distortion is greater than tracing distortion alone. This is important for attempts to reduce tracing distortion by inverse predistortion of the recorded signal. Nylon was also studied as a material with contrasting mechanical properties to vinyl. Further light has been shed on the nature of translation loss.

Authors: Barlow, Donald A.; Garside, Gerald R.
JAES Volume 26 Issue 7/8 pp. 498-510; August 1978

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Comments on "On Stylus Wear and Surface Noise in Phonograph Playback System"
When a set of conclusions is reached in a study as fundamental as this, it is certain that particular factors have been accepted as a part of the working hypothesis essential to the formulation of conclusions which are open to challenge by another student of the subject. Mr. Barlow's studies, like those of Prof. Hunt, are thorough and represent another view of the same subject. Almost invariably, the points of departure in such cases become the focal points for study by all concerned. The process of further investigation usully results in the collection of additional test data that removes the subject from the realm of scientific speculation, and places it within the established body of knowledge of the art. Readers wishing to offer supporting or different viewpoints of their own for publication are invited to address them to the Editor. Such comments are especially welcome.

Author: Barlow, D. A.
JAES Volume 4 Issue 3 pp. 116-119; July 1956

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Determination of Sliding Friction Between Stylus and Record Groove

A method is presented for determining the coefficient of sliding friction between stylus and record groove. The method consists of measuring the time intervals required for a freely rotating record (on a turntable) to decelerate from one known speed to another, both with and without a stylus sliding in the record groove. The method as been used to evaluate the frictional characteristics of several brands of phonograph records in mind condition and after treatment with various preservatives, cleaners, and antistatic agents. Some test results are presented
Author: Pardee, Robert P.
Affiliation: Ball Corporation, Aerospace Systems Division, Boulder, CO
JAES Volume 29 Issue 12 pp. 890-894; December 1981

.

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Disc Record Care and Cleaning Accessories

Since the paper presented by me on a similar theme to the 50th AES Convention at the Cunard International Hotel in London in 1975, investigations into developments in this area have been pursued vigorously both in the UK and in other countries to tackle the problems of -record cleaning- and maintenance.

Author: Aldous, Donald
Affiliation: Hi Fi News and Record Interview, Plymouth
AES Convention:65 (February 1980)

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An Investigation into the Increase of Non-Linear Distortion Products from Virgin Tape to Disc Playback

A study was carried out in order to examine the increase in distortion products arising from the various stages in the recording process from virgin tape, via tape copies, right up to and including interaction with specific record pick-up distortions. 1 kHz sinusoidal signals as well as some IM (400 + 4000 Hz) and double tone (9800 + 10200 Hz) signals were recorded at levels increasing in discrete 3 dB steps starting in non-critical range and continuing up to tape compression level. The tape -original- and first and second generation copies were then transcribed together onto 12" LPs. This made possible a study of the distortion progression and also the second and third order distortion combination products. The current practice of recording right up to the modulation limits of the tapes as well as of the disc seems to result in a total distortion percentage which considerably degrades the sound quality. In order to gain an impression of the audible effect of these distortions, some special musical samples were recorded with the same discrete level steps as the measuring signals. These musical samples were subjected to the same copying and transcription processes as the measuring signals and were similar in character (single tone, multi tone). Listening to these musical sample records provided an opportunity to establish perceptibility limits for the human ear regarding amounts of disturbing distortion.

Authors: Stephani, Otfried; Blüthgen, Björn
Affiliation: Polygram GmbH, Hanover, Germany
AES Convention:62 (March 1979) Paper Number:1453

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An Experimental Study of Groove Deformation in Phonograph Records

Groove deformation has been analyzed in the literature primarily in terms of classical elasticity theory, which is based on assumptions that are not appropriate for stylus-groove contact. To determine the actual deformation-force relations, complex groove impedances have been measured as a function of tracking force, groove speed, etc. The results obtained are contrasted with classical predictions.

Author: White, James V.
Affiliation: Acoustics Research Laboratory, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA
JAES Volume 18 Issue 5 pp. 497-506; October 1970

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Factors Affecting the Needle/Groove Relationship in Phonograph Playback Systems

It is shown that a phonograph pickup stylus riding in the groove of a record partly penetrates the groove walls because of elastic and plastic deformation of the record material. At high bearing loads complete plastic flow sets in and the needle leaves a permanent indentation track, while at lower loads the elastic deformation is predominant. This leads to amplitude distortion in the reproduced signal which may be of two types: one which is a function of the recorded wavelength (G function or translation loss), the other a function of the dynamic moving mass of the stylus/armature (H function or stylus/groove resonance). A third phenomenon (S function or scanning loss) is caused by the finite size of the stylus/groove-wall contact surface. Experiments with specially built pickups show the evolved theory to be valid even for very high frequencies. Special test records with recorded frequencies up to 100,000 Hz were used for these experiments.

Author: Bastiaans, C. R.
Affiliation: Westinghouse Research Laboratories, Pittsburgh, PA
JAES Volume 15 Issue 4 pp. 389-399; October 1967

It appears to me that if Kraut just bothered to read the abstracts, he's sing a different tune!

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #62 – 2012-04-08 22:00:03

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2012-04-08 12:54:00

It appears to me that if Kraut just bothered to read the abstracts, he's sing a different tune!

Well, if you read his stuff, he makes personal attacks, ignores facts, and focuses in on a few people. My agenda detector kind of overheated there.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #63 – 2012-04-09 06:08:14

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2012-04-08 12:54:00

It appears to me that if Kraut just bothered to read the abstracts, he's sing a different tune!

Yes. Point is, ANYONE could have done that search and got those results -- it's free. The search terms was just 'vinyl'.

Had I posted all the results in chronological order from oldest to most recent, it would makes a fascinating historical record, well worth having a look at
for anyone at all interested in the history of vinyl and the transition from analog to digital.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #64 – 2012-04-09 14:04:25

I feel a sense of regret that the CD came along when it did. We were starting to make great strides in the science of vinyl reproduction - a deeper understanding of the physics in all areas from mastering to turntable design. What would the state of the art have become if vinyl had reigned another 10 years? And when a digital system finally did come along, it would almost certainly have a higher bit depth and sample rate. It might not even have been a disc - Soundstream prototyped a system with index-card sized media made of photographic film, with the bits recorded photographically, read by shining the laser through it. It would certainly have been cheaper to duplicate and easier to store.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #65 – 2012-04-09 16:54:50

@splice: That's an awful lot of conjecture, and frankly I see almost nothing that I would agree with.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #66 – 2012-04-09 22:03:13

Quote from: pdq on 2012-04-09 16:54:50

@splice: That's an awful lot of conjecture, and frankly I see almost nothing that I would agree with.

We were indeed making great strides in vinyl technology in the 80s, and the Soundstream system was real. The remaining candidates for conjecture are my musings on sample depth and rate, and the possible physical carrier form. I look forward to hearing your reasons for disagreement. You can PM me if you prefer, and if it has legs we can open a thread for it.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #67 – 2012-04-09 22:44:46

Quote from: splice on 2012-04-09 22:03:13

We were indeed making great strides in vinyl technology in the 80s, and the Soundstream system was real. The remaining candidates for conjecture are my musings on sample depth and rate, and the possible physical carrier form. I look forward to hearing your reasons for disagreement. You can PM me if you prefer, and if it has legs we can open a thread for it.

Blind tests have so far been unable to prove that 16/44.1 CD audio played from a $1 media on a really affordable player introduce any audible loss to 2-channel sound. Today, even this is becoming redundant, and files can be easily transmitted and streamed on the net with no local physical media.

Why should we strive for exotic systems if all they do is raise the price and make the hobby more elitist?

-h

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #68 – 2012-04-09 23:04:06

@-h, I happen to agree with almost everything you wrote. Where I beg to differ is in the "striving for exotic systems". I believe we should strive, but not because it raises the price. Some people have the disposable income to indulge their desires to own exotic systems. Their investment pays for the R&D that eventually filters down to "affordable" systems.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #69 – 2012-04-09 23:28:08

Quote from: splice on 2012-04-09 23:04:06

@-h, I happen to agree with almost everything you wrote. Where I beg to differ is in the "striving for exotic systems". I believe we should strive, but not because it raises the price. Some people have the disposable income to indulge their desires to own exotic systems. Their investment pays for the R&D that eventually filters down to "affordable" systems.

I dont believe that the world needs much more R&D on regular, high-bandwidth 2-ch playback. I don't believe that most such products contribute by a lot of "R", some seems to be pretty light on "D" as well.

I'd like to see more attention on the capture and rendering of spatially realistic audio and reference playback behaviour (absolute loudness, frequency response etc).

-k

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #70 – 2012-04-09 23:28:15

My system is by no means exotic nor is it expensive. But I do have a Pioneer DVD player within it that is capable of playing DVD-A and SACD. I paid a little over a hundred bucks for it on Amazon.

I'm no audio-snob but I find the DVD-A capability useful. I can burn needle-drops (from my humble $500 dollar Pro-Ject TT) to cheap DVD-As and not even think or care about the bit-depth and sampling rate. Just enjoying music whatever the format.

I have to agree with splice: it would be cool if all formats were pushed to their full potential. IMO there's nothing wrong with erring on the side of more "sound quality" even if it does become inaudible to the average person.

It would also be great if we could do all of this without suffering ridiculous claims about audible sound quality and exotic hardware. ...balance

EDIT: knutinh also makes a great point which the timing of my post neglected to address.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #71 – 2012-04-10 04:58:07

Quote from: knutinh on 2012-04-09 23:28:08

I'd like to see more attention on the capture and rendering of spatially realistic audio and reference playback behaviour (absolute loudness, frequency response etc).

-k

That, in a nutshell, is precisely the place where "stereo" falls light-years short.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #72 – 2012-04-10 04:58:59

"To determine the actual deformation-force relations, complex groove impedances have been measured as a function of tracking force, groove speed, etc. The results obtained are contrasted with classical predictions."
What are the results?

"It is shown that a phonograph pickup stylus riding in the groove of a record partly penetrates the groove walls because of elastic and plastic deformation of the record material. At high bearing loads complete plastic flow sets in and the needle leaves a permanent indentation track, while at lower loads the elastic deformation is predominant."
What I had said: deformation - elsatic vs. permanent depends on tracking weight.

"It has been observed that when spherical styli are dragged over flat vinyl surfaces..."
Has it occurred to anybody that a stylus point presents a different load to a flat surface than a stylus riding in a groove, the total load on the surface far from being a point load point load ?
"The method as been used to evaluate the frictional characteristics of several brands of phonograph records in mind condition and after treatment with various preservatives, cleaners, and antistatic agents. Some test results are presented"
What are the results?

"The elastic and plastic deformation of vinyl record compound under indenters of various profiles has been studied in large-scale tests. Curves of total depth of penetration versus load have been used to calculate the net distortion on record playback. In general, in the lower treble, net distortion is less, and in the upper treble, net distortion is greater than tracing distortion alone. This is important for attempts to reduce tracing distortion by inverse predistortion of the recorded signal. "
Again, what results and what are the parametres?

Having no access to the info, I am asked to accept vague abstracts as proof of what?

I am also bothered that attacks on statements, opinions and nondescript test results are seen as personal attacks. If that is the case, I really am in the wrong place here.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #73 – 2012-04-10 05:07:20

You may want to look up the word predominant. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

Reply #74 – 2012-04-10 05:28:48

Quote from: kraut on 2012-04-10 04:58:59

Having no access to the info, I am asked to accept vague abstracts as proof of what?

You demanded citations for the evidence counter to your mystical belief. You can pay to access the information. The burden of proof is entirely on your shoulders as is your vile defamation of those who have actually bothered to become informed.