Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Topic: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate? (Read 79024 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Reply #125 – 2017-10-10 15:10:46

Quote from: Crysist on 2017-10-09 01:29:20

I'm only curious about the relationship between what is still in the original input signal into the lathe and what distortion gets added. Even if it is rolled off, a bunch of HF distortion is added, it seems.

It was a thread about content > 20 kHz recently, and I recall I found an interesting Youtube video. https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,113365.msg940556.html#msg940556

Re: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Reply #126 – 2017-10-10 18:02:40

Quote from: Porcus on 2017-10-10 15:10:46

Quote from: Crysist on 2017-10-09 01:29:20
I'm only curious about the relationship between what is still in the original input signal into the lathe and what distortion gets added. Even if it is rolled off, a bunch of HF distortion is added, it seems.

It was a thread about content > 20 kHz recently, and I recall I found an interesting Youtube video. https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,113365.msg940556.html#msg940556

Ah, I'd seen that. Unfortunately, there are ways I can think of it as being not so definitive. The cutoff is apparent, but you can also see there is distortion added. In some transients they seem to blend together on the graph, and other times we see varying amounts of a difference between the frequencies right before the cutoff and right after (a sharp drop).

Needless to say, it shows that there is definitely useful info above 20kHz, but that there is also a good amount distortion up there too. Some relationship between the two, possibly also including the level. That comment also links an interesting article! I wonder at what level the bias tone would be at...

Re: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Reply #127 – 2017-10-10 21:39:48

Quote

Needless to say, it shows that there is definitely useful info above 20kHz

Records are for listening... What's useful about stuff you can't hear?

Re: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Reply #128 – 2017-10-10 21:57:37

Quote from: DVDdoug on 2017-10-10 21:39:48

Quote
Needless to say, it shows that there is definitely useful info above 20kHz
Records are for listening... What's useful about stuff you can't hear?

The 30 kHz carrier signal on your old quadrophonic LPs could potentially have some use, if only you you had a demodulator :-o

Re: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Reply #129 – 2017-10-10 22:44:04

Quote from: Porcus on 2017-10-10 15:10:46

Quote from: Crysist on 2017-10-09 01:29:20
I'm only curious about the relationship between what is still in the original input signal into the lathe and what distortion gets added. Even if it is rolled off, a bunch of HF distortion is added, it seems.

It was a thread about content > 20 kHz recently, and I recall I found an interesting Youtube video. https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,113365.msg940556.html#msg940556

Distortion during LP playback rises with frequency for reasons relating to groove geometry. When there was a desire to exploit response > 20 KHz for quadraphonic music, actually recovering even just a pilot tone from up there was a challenge, and this is the easier part of the problem of recovering music with acceptable sound. Not only that, but the durability of this ultrasonic information was widely reported to be poor. Maybe 10 more or less playings would erase the music.

Re: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Reply #130 – 2018-07-06 05:18:08

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-10-10 22:44:04

Distortion during LP playback rises with frequency for reasons relating to groove geometry. When there was a desire to exploit response > 20 KHz for quadraphonic music, actually recovering even just a pilot tone from up there was a challenge, and this is the easier part of the problem of recovering music with acceptable sound. Not only that, but the durability of this ultrasonic information was widely reported to be poor. Maybe 10 more or less playings would erase the music.

Good point. Still, it could be interesting to explore today (for other purposes than quad), in modern mc cartridge designs.
Both mechanical and electrical non linearities may appear in the 15-20kHz region, and even non linearities above 20kHz affect the modulated signal.

Quote from: KMD on 2012-03-13 11:49:51

What sample rate and bit depth , dithered, would create a digital recording with the same bandwidth and signal to noise ratio as vinyl

What sample rate and bit depth would create a goat with the same bandwidth and signal to noise ratio as a crocodile?

Re: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Reply #131 – 2018-07-07 03:24:27

Astute response, but maybe you noticed you bumped a topic from a year ago?

Re: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Reply #132 – 2018-07-07 05:35:55

Quote from: kode54 on 2018-07-07 03:24:27

Astute response, but maybe you noticed you bumped a topic from a year ago?

Yes, I didn't read the thread until yesterday.
It's interesting to explore how high frequency noise affect modulated signals also 20-20k, and it seems there are a few here who might know something about that.
But maybe that should be asked in a new topic?

Anyway, that's one reason for my silly goat-crocodile note. Another is how we perceive noise, i.e perceived dynamics. Another one is what resolution means within the audioband.
I don't think I'm skilled enough to argue, but I thought somebody should point out the "issues" related to the question by OP.

Re: Vinyl is equivalent to which digital bit-depth and sampling rate?

Reply #133 – 2018-07-07 11:39:49

I guess it's more or less similar to some kind of ADPCM with bit depth somewhere between 6..12 bits, and the usual 44100 sample rate, plus some kind of pre-emphasis. Not like it can be compared to normal PCM, as vinyl also adds nonlinear distortion which is also very dependent on signal characteristics. Anyways, that was a strange question but if the point is to make comparison to CDDA, then it's overwhelmingly obvious that vinyl has far worse fidelity.