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Topic: Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558? (Read 32434 times) previous topic - next topic
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Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Title says it all basically, I have a pair of Sennheiser 558 (50 Ω) connected to a Xonar-DX sound card through the normal output jack and I'm using WASAPI mode in Foobar, the volume levels are all OK, in fact I constantly have to keep the volume at around 20 in windows for brickwalled music and ~60 for albums that have actually been properly mastered. So would I benefit in any way by buying a dedicated headphone amp? I mean besides the obvious benefit of having a handy volume knob, would the sound quality improve by buying a cheap amp?

Thanks

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #1 –
Quote
...would the sound quality improve by buying a cheap amp?
Probably  not...  In theory, you degrade the analog signal any time you add circuitry to the signal chain... 


However, you can sometimes get (frequency response)  improvement with lower source-impedance.  And, sometimes you can use the amp as an attenuator to reduce noise.  (i.e. by turning-up the computer volume for a better signal-to-noise ratio, and then reducing the signal and noise together with the headphone amp's volume control.)

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
And, sometimes you can use the amp as an attenuator to reduce noise.  (i.e. by turning-up the computer volume for a better signal-to-noise ratio, and then reducing the signal and noise together with the headphone amp's volume control.)


Newbie question but would this be a good argument for going line-out to external amp in general or is it only recommended where noise is a problem?

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #3 –
So it would not help all that much if I would get a CMoy or something similarly cheap? (I'm thinking up to 50$)

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: nesf on
Quote from: DVDdoug on
And, sometimes you can use the amp as an attenuator to reduce noise.  (i.e. by turning-up the computer volume for a better signal-to-noise ratio, and then reducing the signal and noise together with the headphone amp's volume control.)


Newbie question but would this be a good argument for going line-out to external amp in general or is it only recommended where noise is a problem?


Using an amplifier as a very expensive, battery powered resistor is probably not the smartest thing.

Usually you use an amp if you want more volume, or if the headphone out on your device isn't very good.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #5 –
I'm thinking of if you had one anyway for a different set of headphones that had needed more power.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #6 –
It really depends on how terrible the thing you're using currently is.


I once tried using my own headphones on an aeroplane in all three configurations mentioned here.  Without amplification, or with high volume and passive attenuation, there was a periodic buzzing noise.  With a dedicated amp (and middling source volume, for the most tolerable mix of hiss and clipping) things were much better.


And that reminds me... I'm about to take a flight and I'm no longer able to borrow my employers' HD280s (I probably should never have done so in the first place, but since they never got asset tagged I assumed nobody was going to notice).  I'd better make a plan.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #7 –
I bought a FiiO E7 for my Westone UM3xs at work......they're really sensitive and the hiss coming off the work desktop was noticeable.

As others have said it'll depend if your current setup is ok or not.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #8 –
I'm certainly dissatisfied with my setup otherwise I wouldn't had posted. The problem is that at higher volumes the sound starts getting overly bright and harsh and ear fatigue settles in very fast. Another thing I've noticed is that once I push past 60 in the volume control I don't notice much change; the volume seems more or less to plateau at 60-70.

I want to know mainly if using an amp will improve sound quality at higher levels, less harshness, cleaner sound, that's all I want basicly. Or if anyone has any other suggestions I'm open to them, I just want to improve whatever is the weakest link in my signal chain.

Currently that is Xonar-DX => Sennheiser 558 (50 Ω). No external DAC/AMPs or anything fancy.

Dunno if it matters but here are my settings from the Xonar Audio Center:

Audio Channels: 8
Sample Rate: PCM 96 KHz
Analog Out: Headphone
Hi-Fi button ticked (that disables completely any post-processing capabilities of the card, like EQ and other such nonsense)

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Patrunjica on
I'm certainly dissatisfied with my setup otherwise I wouldn't had posted. The problem is that at higher volumes the sound starts getting overly bright and harsh and ear fatigue settles in very fast. Another thing I've noticed is that once I push past 60 in the volume control I don't notice much change; the volume seems more or less to plateau at 60-70.


OK, with those symptoms I believe you can get a benefit by using a cheap amp.  Is the output actually advertised as supporting headphones?

It is still possible that the amplifier will still pick up some noise you don't want.  Maybe you can borrow an amp to see how it sounds, because it could turn out that you need an external sound card (which could be purchased with a built-in amp and real volume knob) instead.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #10 –
Well one option is to get a cheap portable amp like a Fiio E5 (£20) and see if that improves things measurably. It's not the best amp in the world or anything but it should tell you if it's a power problem with the headphone out.


Someone else with a better idea of these things might be able to tell you exactly what the problem is though.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #11 –
If you want to avoid problems, I would recommend setting everything (Windows + Card's drivers) to stereo speakers instead of headphones.

IIRC, Windows XP (or the card's driver, I'm not sure) did some EQ to "improve" the sound when I selected headphones instead of stereo speakers. I'm not very convinced that they dropped the habit in Vista/7.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #12 –
For what it's worth, my HD598s arrived today. I'm finding them slightly harder to drive than my HD25-IIs and with the latter I wasn't happy with the volume out of most on board soundcards (exception being my Macbook Pro's). So an amp mightn't be a bad idea if you're like me and listen to classical and like it loud.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #13 –
Thank you for all the replies.

I don't think the drivers have any EQ on, I tested all the settings possible but I didn't notice any difference in the sound and I made sure to always use the "Hi-Fi" setting that supposedly bypasses all post processing effects, I'm also using WASAPI mode in foobar just to make sure. I also use Windows 7 if that makes any difference.

I did change my EQ settings in the Electri-Q plugin in Foobar; I'm using the plugin to put some cut 8 db in the 8000hz range and that seemed to remove some of the harshness, I made this a couple of months ago to reduce some resonances caused by the Headphone-ear combination (they became very apparent after a sine-wave sweep) but the range effected seems to have shifted from a narrow 7800 peak to a more broad 7500-8500 range with a peak at 8000hz (maybe due to burn in?). I've also discovered that I hear a 7800 tone sightly louder in the left ear and a 8300 slightly louder in the right ear (not by much, about 1 db) maybe I'll look out for an EQ that handles each channel separately.

Are there any alternatives to the Fiio E5? I read somewhere that it has some slight feedback issues when it's plugged in (or was that the E6?) and I'll always have it plugged in, are there any cheap amps designed for desktop use? The CMoy seem to be designed with AAA batteries in mind, definitely not optimal.

Also, what stores would you recommend that have free/cheap shiping in eastern europe? I can't seem to find any of the Fiio products on sale in the retail stores here.

Is there anything else I should be aware of? Are there any possible weak links in the setup? I've read only good reviews for the Xonar and the HD 558, are they really not as good as I thought or I am being way to pretentious?

Oh, final note: I just tested some lower to mid frequency (basically everything up to 1Khz) sine waves and found out that pass the 50 volume mark there is NO change in perceived volume, don't know about the higher frequencies because I don't want to murder my ears (those ones really hurt). There's definitely something wrong with that


Oh yeah, some added data: as I mentioned in a previous thread (in retrospect, I shouldn't have started a new one) the Xonar Control Center reports output volumes of up to +20db, is this normal?

edit: Further investigation reveled that a sine wave of any frequency will reach +20db at 50 volume in the Xonar Control Center, furthermore, turning up the dial at that point does NOT push the volume up in the visualizer, so it might not be a hardware issue after all, I'll make a screen grab to illustrated

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #14 –
If it's a desktop amp you want then the E10 is a good (cheap) amp/DAC that runs fine when plugged into USB. More expensive though than an E5 (£62 on Amazon). I have both and am quite happy with both of them but have only ever used the E5 as a portable amp, not with my computers. It should run fine though once you're not trying to charge it at the same time you're using it (10h battery life or thereabouts so it's reasonable to charge it when you're not listening to music).

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #15 –
Ok, I've made up my mind and I want to place an order as soon as possible as with shipping I'm expecting about 2 weeks on delivery time.

So I should get a Fiio E5? I've been tempted by the E10 by what I read about it online but correct me if I'm wrong; If I connect the E10 via USB I'll bypass the Xonar completely and render it pretty much useless right? Would the E10 by an upgrade over the Xonar, considering the fact that most people state that on-board soundcards are adequate?

And if someone can take the time and explain the weird issues described in my previous post that would be much appreciated, even since I realized that at volumes over 50 the Xonar tends to compress/distort sound my sound quality has gone up a lot, never realized how much I was using volumes of 60-70, sound is much clearer now when listening to softer music such as Buena Vista Social Club; this was the main area that was lacking; the downside is of course, now I REALLY need more volume.

...and to think I was listening to the Wish You Were Here album at 100, no wonder the new remasters didn't sound all that impressive, who knows in how many ways the sound was compressed, yup, definitely need an amp. The volume WILL go up several notches with even the E5 right?

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #16 –
The volume will go up with a third party amp. Definitely.

The E10 will completely bypass the Xonar card rendering it useless (except for driving active speakers at some point!). Is it an upgrade? Honestly I doubt many of us could tell the difference between the two DACs unless one is defective. Based on general ABX tests that have been done with speaker systems and cheap vs expensive DACs. The E5 on the other hand will just amplify the signal coming from your Xonar rendering it useful. Which option you prefer is up to you. Personally I'd go with the E10 because I'd prefer a physical volume knob to a software based dial. But that's very much a personal preference thing. The E10 is meant for desktop use and the E5 isn't though. You can plug in and forget about the E10, the E5 you have to remember to charge etc.

If it's an experiment to see if an amp solves your problem the E5 is a third of the price of the E10 though...

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #17 –
Oh, I probably won't ever use active speakers, I have a pair of cheap 2.1 from Genius (I know!) but they are hardly plugged in (maybe twice/year), I really can't them as my neighbors start complaining, so all my listening is via headphones.

Is there any downside to the volume knob on the E5? Quality wise I mean, I don't mind clicking on a button to change volumes... well actually I do but not for that price difference.

Ideally I would want something that costs as much as the E5 (or maybe a bit more, I don't mind) and that can be plugged in all the time and that isn't bundled with a DAC, am I really that niche of a customer?

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #18 –
The volume switch on the E5 is functional and no frills really. It really looks like it cost more than £20 but when you get down to it it's pretty basic and does what it needs to do and little else. I've seen one or two cheaper amp/DACs but the problem with them was high enough impedance on the headphone out and this can mess with the sound in a headphone like the HD598. One option, though you may not like it, is the cheaper Xonar DG which has a version that comes with a headphone amp. You can get them over here for about £25. It's a step down from the DX though DAC wise and possibly in other ways. Personally, I'd get the E5 to check out if there's an amplification problem, if there was then I'd pick up an E10 or similar down the road as a more permanent solution. This might not suit you however.

Someone more knowledgeable might have seen something that suits your needs better though. Do look for the output impedance on any amp though, you want it as low as possible with mid impedance headphones like the HD598, ideally 5 Ohms or less.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #19 –
Oh! I did not know that, thanks for the tip! Where can I find the output impedance on something like the E5? On the homepage it only says "Suitable Headphone Impedance:16 Ω ~ 300 Ω". Can I trust these values?

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Patrunjica on
So I should get a Fiio E5? I've been tempted by the E10 by what I read about it online but correct me if I'm wrong; If I connect the E10 via USB I'll bypass the Xonar completely and render it pretty much useless right? Would the E10 by an upgrade over the Xonar, considering the fact that most people state that on-board soundcards are adequate?


If you have an awesome sound card, I would not recommend buying a USB DAC.  Theres no need if you already have such good hardware. Just buy an amp.

Edit:


Quote from: Patrunjica on
Oh! I did not know that, thanks for the tip! Where can I find the output impedance on something like the E5? On the homepage it only says "Suitable Headphone Impedance:16 ? ~ 300 ?". Can I trust these values?


Yes, those values are fairly conservative.  The Fiio amps have a very low output impedance, they should drive almost anything.

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #22 –
Related question:

What kind of db range are we talking about? I'm using an HD600 at 300ohms. The onboard Realtek soundcard drives it fine. In my experience there should always be a huge difference between 60% and 20% on the windows volume control?

Is the Asus card even weaker than onboard sound?

Do I need a Headphone Amp for a pair of Senn HD 558?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: HTS on
What kind of db range are we talking about? I'm using an HD600 at 300ohms. The onboard Realtek soundcard drives it fine. In my experience there should always be a huge difference between 60% and 20% on the windows volume control?

Is the Asus card even weaker than onboard sound?


The Xonor cards have a stupidly high output impedance.  They're really bad at driving headphones for whatever reason.  Its the line out on them that doesn't suck.  It wouldn't surprise me if your onboard worked better in that regard.