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Topic: Setup for audio/receiver uprgade. Amp? (Read 3246 times) previous topic - next topic
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Setup for audio/receiver uprgade. Amp?

Hi, I'd like to upgrade my setup that i'm using mostly for audio. Current setup is: Receiver AV VSX 918V and speakers JBL L830. I'm using this setup mostly to listen to lossless (stereo) music from my laptop. I'd like to upgrade my Receiver so that I have better sound quality. I bought this receiver just in case I will upgrade in the future to HT but main goal is to to have a great audio setup. I'm wondering if I should just get a good amp. What is best setup in my case. I'd like to have a good equalizer and possibility to connect SACD player and possibly 2 more speakers. What is Pre amp??? My goal is to get:
* great sound (mostly for stereo)
* good equalizer
Should I get amp or new better receiver? I dont care about all those news 7.1, 3D and all this stuff. Just pure audiophile sound.

Setup for audio/receiver uprgade. Amp?

Reply #1 –
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Current setup is: Receiver AV VSX 918V
...I'd like to upgrade my Receiver so that I have better sound quality
...Should I get amp or new better receiver?
...main goal is to have a great audio setup.
Your receiver should be fine.  With modern electronics it's cheap & easy to build a receiver with specs that are better than human hearing.  Unless you need more power or more/different inputs, there is little to be gained by spending more money on electronics.

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and possibility to connect SACD player
You should be able to get an SACD player with a digital output that works with your receiver (i.e. HDMI).  That's assuming they still make SACD players    They never were very popular...  And, since regular CDs are better than human hearing, you won't hear any difference unless you find SACD discs that are mastered differently from the CD (some are), or discs that have surround sound.

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...and speakers JBL L830.
...and possibly 2 more speakers.
JBL makes fine speakers, but those have small woofers.  You might benefit from larger speakers or by adding a subwoofer.  Most electronics sound alike unless you've got something really cheap or defective.    Speakers are a different story...  All speakers sound different.  If you really want to make a change/improvement, start with speakers (or an equalizer).

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I'm wondering if I should just get a good amp.
Only if you need more power.  I doubt you are driving your amp (receiver) into distortion, and if you are you probably need bigger speakers as well as a separate power amp.

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I'd like to have a good equalizer
There are three reasons for using an equalizer -
1. To correct for speaker & room deficiencies.
2. To correct for (occasional) deficiencies in the recording.
3. To adjust to personal taste.  (FYI - Most "audiophiles" would consider this illigitimate use of EQ.)

Your receiver has some EQ built into it, including some sort of room correction.  Usually, this requires a calibrated instrumentation microphone to measure the sound from the speakers & room and make automatic adjustments.    You'll have to check your owner's manual.

Otherwise, you can buy a good graphic equalizer for under $200 USD. (Check out places like Musician's Friend.)

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What is Pre amp???
It's a "control center" with input switching, volume controls, etc.  There is a preamp built-into your receiver.  A receiver combines a tuner, preamp, and a power amp.  (Or, it's a little box you connect between your turntable and receiver.)  In the old days, a preamp would include a phono-preamp to boost and equalize the tiny signal from a phono cartridge.  (Microphone preamps are used during recording to boost the signal from a microphone to line-level)  Most modern home preamps don't have a phono input and don't really amplify anything! 

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I dont care about all those news 7.1, 3D and all this stuff. Just pure audiophile sound.
This is a matter of personal taste, but you might benefit from a full 5.1 (or 7.1) setup. Pro Logic II includes some "soundfield" enhancement options for stereo music.  Personally, I like a little reverb in the rear channels to simulate a large 'music hall" in my living room.

Setup for audio/receiver uprgade. Amp?

Reply #2 –
Than you very much for so detailed answer;-).

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Your receiver should be fine. With modern electronics it's cheap & easy to build a receiver with specs that are better than human hearing. Unless you need more power or more/different inputs, there is little to be gained by spending more money on electronics.

It's not really about the power I guess. It's all about sound quality. I'm never really satisfied.

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You should be able to get an SACD player with a digital output that works with your receiver (i.e. HDMI).  That's assuming they still make SACD players    They never were very popular...  And, since regular CDs are better than human hearing, you won't hear any difference unless you find SACD discs that are mastered differently from the CD (some are), or discs that have surround sound.

This I mentioned just in case. I know that this is basically dead format. I think I have 1 or 2 SCAD recording. It's not even reasonable to buy special player for it. But weren't they supposed to release Blue-rays with some incredible soundtracks??

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JBL makes fine speakers, but those have small woofers.  You might benefit from larger speakers or by adding a subwoofer.  Most electronics sound alike unless you've got something really cheap or defective.    Speakers are a different story...  All speakers sound different.  If you really want to make a change/improvement, start with speakers (or an equalizer).

I didnt mention it but I have pretty good subwoofer HSU. My speakers can sound really good. It all depends on kind of music and particular recording. I noticed huge improvement when I started using equalizer in FooBar. I'm mostly ok with that but I still think that receiver should be doing this job. Maybe I'm wrong. Another thing is that when I'm listening music played by CD/DVD player (separate one connected to receiver) I don't have the right equalizer. I'm never totally satisfied with the sound. For example for my portable player I'm using pretty good headphones HD 380 pro and IE6 both by Senheiser, and I'm never happy in 100%. There's always something. They all (including my home setup) sound amazing with pop music but not as good with classical music especially when recordings are older (for example from 70s.)

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Only if you need more power.  I doubt you are driving your amp (receiver) into distortion, and if you are you probably need bigger speakers as well as a separate power amp.

The only reason I thought about separate amp is that I thought that it will be more "audiophile". I always have such filling that in those AV receivers they mostly concentrate on video gadgets.

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Your receiver has some EQ built into it, including some sort of room correction.  Usually, this requires a calibrated instrumentation microphone to measure the sound from the speakers & room and make automatic adjustments.    You'll have to check your owner's manual.

Yes, I did it few times.

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Otherwise, you can buy a good graphic equalizer for under $200 USD. (Check out places like Musician's Friend.)

This might really resolve my problem I guess. I was once thinking about it a while ago but all of them look so "industrial". they have those mounts on the sides. Are they really for home use? I was looking at connections at the back and I have no idea how should I connect it. Not between my computer and laptop because i couldnt use while listening to CD player??

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This is a matter of personal taste, but you might benefit from a full 5.1 (or 7.1) setup. Pro Logic II includes some "soundfield" enhancement options for stereo music. Personally, I like a little reverb in the rear channels to simulate a large 'music hall" in my living room.

I agree. I'd like to try is but I hate all those sound enhancements in my receiver. This is the main reason of my concern. Maybe different receivers have better settings. All those Pro Logics..... sound so unnatural, fake, no clear, no crisp for me. The only setup in my receiver that I can except is plain stereo. Once I connected an extra pair of speaker and unfortunatelly reveiver was not sending any signal to them in stereo mode:-(. I had to turn on all those gadgets and then it sounded so badly:-(. I have to add that I used speaker from the same line. I don't know to explain the sound I like. I like it crisp, very clear, i think "on the treble side" but still with nice strong and natural bass:-/. I'd say studio quality (??). None of my friends is really into audio setup so I cannot look at other setups to compare.

Setup for audio/receiver uprgade. Amp?

Reply #3 –
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It's all about sound quality.
Unless there's something wrong or unless you are using the bass & treble controls or surround effects, you shouldn't hear a difference.    Don't believe the "audiophile nonsense"!    It's easy to build a circuit with low noise, low distortion, and flat frequency response (especially if the circuit/device doesn't need to amplify low-level mic or phono pickup signals).  These are the only "specs" that matter.    You might want to take a look at Ethan Winer's Audiophoolery article and if you find that interesting, there is a related video from anAES presentation (I think the video runs about an hour).

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I'm never really satisfied.
Human nature  But, once you've got noise, distortion, and frequency response better than human hearing... Where can you go?  ...Except search for better recordings...  And, maybe think about changing/improving your room acoustics?

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The only reason I thought about separate amp is that I thought that it will be more "audiophile".
Oh, it would be!  Audiophiles love this stuff!      But, that doesn't mean it will sound any different in a level-matched blind listening test.    Super-expensive cables, and high-end tube amps are "more audiophile" too.  (Most of the audiophile community doesn't believe in blind listening tests.)  Some audiophlies like vinyl records...  The "snap", "crackle", and "pop" drives me nuts!!!

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This might really resolve my problem I guess. I was once thinking about it a while ago but all of them look so "industrial". they have those mounts on the sides. Are they really for home use?

I was looking at connections at the back and I have no idea how should I connect it. Not between my computer and laptop because i couldnt use while listening to CD player??
Good question.  You need regular "home style" RCA connectors.    Some pro equalizers have balanced XLR connections. 

A stereo equalizer only needs a pair of inputs and a pair of outputs.  Normally, it's connected to the receiver's "tape loop".    The selected sound sound (CD, computer, TV, etc.) always comes  out of the reciever's "tape-out".  Then when you select "tape monitor on", the sound coming into the reeiver's "tape-in" get's routed to your volume/tone controls and eventually to the speakers.  If you turn-off the tape monitor, you'll bypass the EQ.

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...I'd like to try is but I hate all those sound enhancements in my receiver. This is the main reason of my concern. Maybe different receivers have better settings. All those Pro Logics..... sound so unnatural, fake, no clear, no crisp for me.
You should stick with 2-channel stereo.    Most audiophiles would agree that the goal is to reproduce the sound accruately and would avoid artificial enhancement.

Setup for audio/receiver uprgade. Amp?

Reply #4 –
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Unless there's something wrong or unless you are using the bass & treble controls or surround effects, you shouldn't hear a difference.    Don't believe the "audiophile nonsense"!    It's easy to build a circuit with low noise, low distortion, and flat frequency response (especially if the circuit/device doesn't need to amplify low-level mic or phono pickup signals).  These are the only "specs" that matter.    You might want to take a look at Ethan Winer's Audiophoolery article and if you find that interesting, there is a related video from anAES presentation (I think the video runs about an hour).

I'm not really good with all those technical stuff and terms. I can only judge the sound by my "taste". I noticed that once I started using EQ in FooBar there is huge improvement but there's also something like "distortion". Not sure if I'm understanding it right. The sound is nicer to my ear but also a little changed, like there was something missing, like there were micro, micro micro gaps. I don't know how to call it. Some kind of really minimal deformation. It's something that occurs when you play music really loudly on the equipment that is not strong enough, sounds becoming deformed. (is it what you call distortion??) So here I have something similar but really, really minimally, on the regular volume, barely heard. Nobody else can hear it probably, and I could live with it but it annoys me. This was the reason of the idea of getting different amp/receiver. But now I think that I will start with EQ and eventually will make the bigger upgrade in the future (including speakers and stuff).

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Human nature  But, once you've got noise, distortion, and frequency response better than human hearing... Where can you go?  ...Except search for better recordings...  And, maybe think about changing/improving your room acoustics?

How can I change my room acoustic?

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Good question.  You need regular "home style" RCA connectors.    Some pro equalizers have balanced XLR connections.  A stereo equalizer only needs a pair of inputs and a pair of outputs.  Normally, it's connected to the receiver's "tape loop".    The selected sound sound (CD, computer, TV, etc.) always comes  out of the reciever's "tape-out".  Then when you select "tape monitor on", the sound coming into the reeiver's "tape-in" get's routed to your volume/tone controls and eventually to the speakers.  If you turn-off the tape monitor, you'll bypass the EQ.

Wow, this is amazing. I never though you can connect it as a loop. Otherwise I would have bought EQ long time ago. So simple solution. The only thing is that I don't have this tape monitor button. Will it still work?? How about if I will be listening for example to concert from DVD (which I really barely do, mostly stereo but asking just in case)? Normally multichannel sounds are downmixed to stereo since I have only to speakers. Will the EQ be controlling that too?

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You should stick with 2-channel stereo.    Most audiophiles would agree that the goal is to reproduce the sound accruately and would avoid artificial enhancement.

Hope that EQ gives me enough improvement;-).

Setup for audio/receiver uprgade. Amp?

Reply #5 –
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I noticed that once I started using EQ in FooBar there is huge improvement but there's also something like "distortion".... It's something that occurs when you play music really loudly on the equipment that is not strong enough, sounds becoming deformed. (is it what you call distortion??)
It could be clipping[/u] (flat-topped waves...  it's a common kind of distortion...  the shape of the waveform is altered/distorted).  If you boost the signal digitally (such as by boosting certain frequencies with an equalizer), you can end-up "trying" to push your digital-to-analog converter higher than it can go (i.e. you can only "count" so-high with 16-bits).  It usually doesn't happen unless you have all of the computer/digital volume controls cranked-up...  It all depends on the various EQ & volume settings and on how the gains add-up.  You'll get analog clipping you try to get 110 watts out of a 100 watt amp.  Or, if you EQ a WAV file and you are not careful about the peak levels, the WAV file itself can be clipped.  (Again, there is a limit with 16-bit or 24-bit integers.)

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How can I change my room acoustic?
Simply moving your speakers around can change how they sound in the room.  Hard surfaces reflect sound.  Soft surfaces absorb sound.  It's generally easier to soften-up a room by putting-down a rug on a hardwood floor, or by hanging decrative carpets or tapestries on the walls, or by adding heavy drapes, than it is to harden-up a room.  Most listeners seem to prefer a "dead" (soft-absorptive) room, where they are hearing the sound of the speakers with minimal influence from the room acoustics.    Home listening is different from a concert-hall or dance hall, where the room sound is desired.  Again, I will direct you to an article at EthanWiner.com[/u].  (He works for an acoustics company.)

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The only thing is that I don't have this tape monitor button. Will it still work??
Nope..  You need a tape-out and tape-in loop (or some kind of "processing loop"... )  I think you are right...  I found the user manual for your receiver online, and I don't see anything like that.  On professional mixers, the outputs are called effect "sends" and the inputs are called "returns".  On receivers, there is sometimes a pair of "ins & outs" with funny looking "U"-shaped connectors/jumpers that you can pull-out and replace with RCA plugs.  These might labeled preamp out and amp-in.  In this case, you remove the jumpers and replace them with an equalizer in the signal path, so you don't need a front-panel switch. 

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How about if I will be listening for example to concert from DVD (which I really barely do, mostly stereo but asking just in case)? Normally multichannel sounds are downmixed to stereo since I have only to speakers. Will the EQ be controlling that too?
(I suppose it doesn't matter if you don't have a tape loop.)  It depends on the receiver...  I don't think the tape monitor loop on my reciever works at all when using a digital input.  I know it doesn't work at all with digital surround.  In fact, the "tone controls" on my cheapo receiver don't work at all with digital signals!  I can only adjust the subwoofer level.

Setup for audio/receiver uprgade. Amp?

Reply #6 –
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It could be clipping[/u] (flat-topped waves...  it's a common kind of distortion...  the shape of the waveform is altered/distorted).  If you boost the signal digitally (such as by boosting certain frequencies with an equalizer), you can end-up "trying" to push your digital-to-analog converter higher than it can go (i.e. you can only "count" so-high with 16-bits).  It usually doesn't happen unless you have all of the computer/digital volume controls cranked-up...  It all depends on the various EQ & volume settings and on how the gains add-up.  You'll get analog clipping you try to get 110 watts out of a 100 watt amp.  Or, if you EQ a WAV file and you are not careful about the peak levels, the WAV file itself can be clipped.  (Again, there is a limit with 16-bit or 24-bit integers.)

I'm not sure what is it. I was doing some tests and I found that the problem occurs while listening to some CDs of classical music recorded with pretty low volume when I try to listen to them on higher volume. I think it all started once I started to using this FooBar EQ. And again it's only few records. I was just listening to few other and it sounded amazing on high volume. So I think that it all depends on quality of recording (I actually noticed before that there are some recording companies that I'm trying to avoid). If this is clipping (still not sure, it sounds a bit different, it's like something in high sounds, I'd say something wrong with "finishing" the sound, the sounds isn't crisp enough, doesn't have this depth, it's kind of flat plus this kind of minimal "clipping") it's very minimal and I guess I have to live with that.

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Nope..  You need a tape-out and tape-in loop (or some kind of "processing loop"... )  I think you are right...  I found the user manual for your receiver online, and I don't see anything like that.  On professional mixers, the outputs are called effect "sends" and the inputs are called "returns".  On receivers, there is sometimes a pair of "ins & outs" with funny looking "U"-shaped connectors/jumpers that you can pull-out and replace with RCA plugs.  These might labeled preamp out and amp-in.  In this case, you remove the jumpers and replace them with an equalizer in the signal path, so you don't need a front-panel switch.

Hm, I have what is called CD-R/Tape/Md 2 RCA outs and 2 ins. I just don't have a monitor loop bottom but maybe it's enough?? Do you think that is still may not process digital sound?
 

Setup for audio/receiver uprgade. Amp?

Reply #7 –
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...some CDs of classical music recorded with pretty low volume when I try to listen to them on higher volume.
It might not be clipping...  it might be something else...

But, clipping is related to the peaks, whereas perceived loudness is related to the average level (and the frequency content).   

Most modern popular music is very dynamically-compressed, which means it has a higher average level and sounds louder, even though it may have the same peaks as classical music.    If you crank-up the volume of a classical piece 'till it sounds as loud as the popular piece, the classical music might clip.  (And, classical music might need a higher-powered amplifier than heavy metal, even though the heavy metal sounds louder.)

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Hm, I have what is called CD-R/Tape/Md 2 RCA outs and 2 ins. I just don't have a monitor loop bottom but maybe it's enough?? Do you think that is still may not process digital sound?
Somehow, somewhere, you've got to break the signal-path and insert the equalizer.

As far as I can tell, the selected input always goes straight-through to the speakers, and the only place to insert the equalizer is between the device and the receiver, which means one device at a time.

Unless... Maybe you can select "tape" and "CD" at the same time.  If by chance, selecting tape does not turn-off the other input, the other input will be routed to tape-out (to EQ-in) and the output from the EQ can go to tape-in, and you've got your tape-loop!   

If you can't tell from the way the controls work or from the display, you can test that by plugging RCA cables between tape-out and tape-in.  If you plug-in that "loop-back" cable and play CD, and if you still hear the music when you hit "tape", you've got a loop.  And, if the sound stops when you unplug the loop-back cable that will confirm it.    Keep the volume way-way down when doing this!  If this is not a tape-loop, you might be creating a nasty feedback loop, and/or you can get a nasty speaker-blowing buzz when plugging-in and unplugging RCA cables.