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  • Destroid
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #25
Well, add about half a second to 02:04:16 and your files exceed the 4 GB limit of the wave file format. There is little i can do besides adding support for something like the Wave64-Format.
Ok, that makes sense. Those large WAV files were a DTS conversion of a concert DVD where all the channels were in one single WAV.

An intermediate step to the "RF64" option might be two different options: a) for the user, divide the concert into chapters; b) the program maybe could accommodate the 6-WAV approach (multiple WAV files of the the different channels) since it's likely each channel is less than 4GB by itself...
"Something bothering you, Mister Spock?"

  • lvqcl
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #26
Good idea! Currently i have no time to look at the source to check if this works for files larger than 4 GB. TAK's stream functions definitely support more than 4 GB, but i am not sure, if i have somewhere coded some restriction. Anyway, you will not be able to decode such a file while TAK only supports the standard wave format as output format...


What can I say...

a) 12.7GB .W64 file was converted to 12.7GB .WAV
b) This .WAV file was converted to 5.56 GB .TAK file (takc.exe -e -ihs -p2 - out.tak < in.wav).
c) Then .TAK file was decoded back to .W64 with foobar2000.

Resulting .w64 file is identical to the source.

  • TBeck
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #27
What can I say...

a) 12.7GB .W64 file was converted to 12.7GB .WAV
b) This .WAV file was converted to 5.56 GB .TAK file (takc.exe -e -ihs -p2 - out.tak < in.wav).
c) Then .TAK file was decoded back to .W64 with foobar2000.

Resulting .w64 file is identical to the source.

Thank you! I am surprised. Really nice.

  • Destroid
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #28
Didn't have doubt about data integrity of TAK, I just can't benchmark with TAK converting via FB2K piped and get CPU% numbers to account for HDD bottlenecks. Also not really sure why FB2K writes a WAV that it can't read to-the-end correctly when converting from DTS, but the AC3filter utils' "valdec.exe" managed to do so.

This multichannel TAK implementation seems highly successful and since I will be looking to bench with chapter-split files I can run tests to compare the performance vs. ALAC-derived and have results before xmas

Great work, Thomas!
"Something bothering you, Mister Spock?"

  • Destroid
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #29
And here's some test results

Not sure exactly what settings to use with MP4ALS I ended up supplying using no arguments at all. Comparing that with -p0 TAK came up a little less compressed in every file. I re-ran with -p1 and TAK edged out every MP3ALS file, so I'm guessing the closet TAK setting to default MP4ALS for compression ratio is either -p0e or -p0m.
Code: [Select]
6ch 48KHz 16bit     TAK 2.2.0alpha -p1          MP4alsRM23
WAV    filesize    ratio  enc    dec      ratio  enc    dec
-----  ---------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------
D1-02  106.15 MB  44.95%  42.80x  81.36x  45.68%  13.00x  34.16x
D1-03  228.73 MB  41.33%  44.94x  87.38x  42.10%  13.15x  35.49x
D1-05  407.76 MB  33.35%  48.04x  97.76x  34.04%  13.66x  36.94x
D1-08  506.63 MB  42.42%  44.79x  86.55x  43.47%  13.00x  36.78x
D1-10  140.89 MB  45.28%  44.01x  87.80x  46.21%  13.12x  36.81x
D2-05  153.60 MB  43.40%  44.08x  81.35x  43.98%  12.95x  34.61x
D2-09  201.40 MB  36.35%  47.12x  90.26x  37.13%  13.45x  37.67x
D2-10  378.39 MB  42.43%  44.40x  87.83x  43.04%  12.88x  37.27x
D2-11  296.93 MB  45.78%  42.19x  84.29x  46.29%  12.79x  36.19x
D2-18  340.04 MB  45.58%  43.54x  85.02x  46.55%  12.84x  36.79x
D3-02  87.80 MB  49.94%  42.81x  76.37x  51.55%  12.87x  37.89x
D3-05  184.21 MB  48.95%  43.27x  81.93x  50.45%  12.91x  36.44x
D3-09  211.97 MB  45.15%  44.26x  86.97x  46.62%  12.86x  35.85x
D3-11  501.20 MB  44.19%  44.04x  84.76x  45.54%  12.90x  36.61x
D3-12  191.09 MB  46.88%  44.00x  83.70x  48.29%  12.91x  36.56x
I did try the settings from the TAK 2.2.0 development thread but MP4ALS encoder was so incredibly slow I abandoned the test early on, but here's what I got:
Code: [Select]
6ch 48KHz 16bit    TAK 2.2.0alpha -p2m     MP4alsRM23 -7 -o160 -t6
WAV    filesize    ratio  enc    dec      ratio  enc    dec
-----  ---------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------
D1-02  106.15 MB  43.72%  4.184x  76.83x  43.12%  0.206x  7.12x
D1-03  228.73 MB  40.38%  4.231x  74.86x  39.58%  0.209x  7.55x
D1-05  407.76 MB  32.70%  4.357x  84.39x  32.40%  0.220x  8.41x
D1-08  506.63 MB  41.07%  4.087x  75.10x  40.66%  0.211x  9.07x
D1-10  140.89 MB  44.11%  4.134x  79.31x  43.30%  0.209x  7.09x
"Something bothering you, Mister Spock?"

  • TBeck
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #30
Didn't have doubt about data integrity of TAK, I just can't benchmark with TAK converting via FB2K piped and get CPU% numbers to account for HDD bottlenecks.

Doubts wouldn't be totally unjustified. There must be a reason, why i call it an alpha release...

Not sure exactly what settings to use with MP4ALS I ended up supplying using no arguments at all. Comparing that with -p0 TAK came up a little less compressed in every file. I re-ran with -p1 and TAK edged out every MP3ALS file, so I'm guessing the closet TAK setting to default MP4ALS for compression ratio is either -p0e or -p0m.

Usually a -p1x setting is comparable to the default mode of Mpeg4Als. Then both are using 12 predictors (like FLAC -8). The significantly better performance of -p1 provides an indication, that your files provide good opportunities for TAK's channel decorrelation algorithms. And those seem to be more efficient than Mpeg4Als' ones. This advantage may compensate for the lower predictor count (4) of -p0x.

I am really glad to see an advantage of TAK's channel decorrelation algorithms on your files, because most of the work has gone into them. Since my multi channel test file corpus is still small, i really couldn't be sure if the advantage would also manifest in other comparisons.

I did try the settings from the TAK 2.2.0 development thread but MP4ALS encoder was so incredibly slow I abandoned the test early on, but here's what I got:

More nice results. 

Could you please test those 5 files with -p4m?

You really made my day.    Thank you!
  • Last Edit: 08 June, 2011, 12:14:07 PM by TBeck

  • Destroid
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #31
The -p4m results:
Code: [Select]
6ch 48KHz 16bit    TAK 2.2.0alpha -p2m      TAK 2.2.0alpha -p4m      MP4alsRM23 -7 -o160 -t6
WAV    filesize    ratio  enc    dec      ratio  enc    dec      ratio  enc    dec
-----  ---------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------  ------
D1-02  106.15 MB  44.00%  4.184x  76.83x  43.85%  3.079x  62.78x  43.12%  0.206x  7.12x
D1-03  228.73 MB  40.38%  4.231x  74.86x  40.18%  3.121x  60.16x  39.58%  0.209x  7.55x
D1-05  407.76 MB  32.70%  4.357x  84.39x  32.49%  3.312x  61.38x  32.40%  0.220x  8.41x
D1-08  506.63 MB  41.07%  4.087x  75.10x  40.94%  3.018x  68.00x  40.66%  0.211x  9.07x
D1-10  140.89 MB  44.11%  4.134x  79.31x  43.91%  3.159x  62.90%  43.30%  0.209x  7.09x
Note: I initially noticed for the file D1-02 the ratio of -p2m was better than -p4m and found it was a error in calculation or a typo, so it's fixed. I double-checked the other files' ratios for -p2m and there were no further errors/typos.

Speaking of 'no errors,' all my tests with -p0, -p1, p2m and -p4m were decompressed and bit-compared, still no errors found
  • Last Edit: 08 June, 2011, 01:35:03 PM by Destroid
"Something bothering you, Mister Spock?"

  • TBeck
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #32
The -p4m results:
...
Speaking of 'no errors,' all my tests with -p0, -p1, p2m and -p4m were decompressed and bit-compared, still no errors found

This was fast! 

Ok, nevertheless Mpeg4Als here compresses better, although at the price of about 15 times slower encoding and about 9 times slower decoding. Not to mention, that it's using bigger frames which also are not independent, so that you for instance would loose much more audio data in case of a single bit error.

That's not meant as an excuse. It simply illustrates, why i don't want to modify TAK in a similar way to improve it's compression. I really like high speeds and small, independent frames of audio data.

And thank you again!

  • Destroid
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #33
Ok, nevertheless Mpeg4Als here compresses better, although at the price of about 15 times slower encoding and about 9 times slower decoding. Not to mention, that it's using bigger frames which also are not independent, so that you for instance would loose much more audio data in case of a single bit error.
That price of roughtly 0.5% for the speed isn't worth it, IMO. Although this ALS is unoptimized I have yet to seen any optimizations from this lossless format.
Quote
This was fast! 
You can thank TAK for that, and the fact I didn't re-run the ALS tests.  Actually, once I get my initial test script written it's really easy to change the settings. It was the first run of testing where that error of the -p2m compression ratio came from (sorry about that) and I got the script errors fixed after.
  • Last Edit: 08 June, 2011, 03:12:52 PM by Destroid
"Something bothering you, Mister Spock?"

  • Destroid
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #34
What can I say...

a) 12.7GB .W64 file was converted to 12.7GB .WAV
b) This .WAV file was converted to 5.56 GB .TAK file (takc.exe -e -ihs -p2 - out.tak < in.wav).
c) Then .TAK file was decoded back to .W64 with foobar2000.

Resulting .w64 file is identical to the source.

Thank you! I am surprised. Really nice.
I somehow overlooked lvqcl using pipe input off redirect instead of using FB2K. Now I should start saving up for glasses, apologies.

I also wanted to inquire: would there be interest for other testing 24-bit DTS->WAV files? I can see one point of interest (to measure TAK's ability on that bit-depth) as well as a point of non-interest (persons don't much convert DTS->WAV anyway, much less at 24-bit since there nearly zero audible advantages). At any rate, the DTS decoder gave me the option of 16 or 24 bits. I suppose it's more interesting to test on 24/48 or even 24/96 multichannel material but I have no such material.
"Something bothering you, Mister Spock?"

  • TBeck
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #35
I also wanted to inquire: would there be interest for other testing 24-bit DTS->WAV files? I can see one point of interest (to measure TAK's ability on that bit-depth) as well as a point of non-interest (persons don't much convert DTS->WAV anyway, much less at 24-bit since there nearly zero audible advantages). At any rate, the DTS decoder gave me the option of 16 or 24 bits. I suppose it's more interesting to test on 24/48 or even 24/96 multichannel material but I have no such material.

I agree. Testing of true 24-bit material would be nice, but testing of an 24-bit version of your DTS files would not really be informative. The results may be similar to the 16-bit results. If not, the difference may be attributed to the output stage of the decoder, whose properties are of little interest for us.

Maybe you could test your files with FLAC and WavPack to obtain a more complete picture?

Well, somehow this release is a bit problematic because it adds a feature only few users will be using and this means even less testers. I am not sure, if i will immediately release a final version or insert a beta release. The latter may be tried by more users who possibly don't want to touch alpha releases. In fact this only means a different label, because only the wave reader has been slightly modified.

  • bryant
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer (Donating)
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #36
Maybe you could test your files with FLAC and WavPack to obtain a more complete picture?

I would be happy if someone included WavPack in the comparison, but I believe that the configuration used in the other testing thread (-hhx) might be suboptimal for multichannel and high sampling rates. The first issue is that multichannel WavPack files will use shorter blocks and those end up being less efficient with the longer headers of the very high mode, so it might even be that the regular high mode (-h) is better (and certainly faster to encode and decode). Also, the -x1 to -x3 options are optimized for regular 44.1 KHz audio, so they are not ideal for the LFE channel of a multichannel stream or 96 KHz sampling rates. The -x4 to -x6 options generate custom decorrelation filters, so they work better (sometimes much better) than the lower ones in these cases.

Maybe a good comparison configuration (that would not be too slow at encoding) would be -hx4 (or even -x4 if that was still too slow). These might improve WavPack's compression a little compared to the other test (especially at 96 or 192 KHz), but I'm sure it still won't get close to the values for this new TAK (which is a great piece of work, Thomas, congratulations!)

David



  • RastaMan
  • [*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #37
Tested TAK 2.2.0 Alpha on an HDCD album "Sara Evans - Stronger (2011)" [Peak extension disabled]

Original album size [compressed using Monkey's Audio High (-c3000)]

256 MB

Size of album after decompressing to 24-bit WAV, then compressed with TAK 2.2.0 Alpha (-p4m)

255 MB

Nice to know that you could listen to this type of HDCD album in foobar2000 without having to use the HDCD plugin, save 1 MB an album in the process, and also use ReplayGain with the TAK files as well.

MD5 - CRC Comparison:
Code: [Select]
Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\01. Desperately.tak"
MD5: EA41B8E89DCF097D78D6F7F7A52F9CC4
CRC32: 99BB3CD7
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\01. Desperately.wav"
MD5: EA41B8E89DCF097D78D6F7F7A52F9CC4
CRC32: 99BB3CD7
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\02. A Little Bit Stronger.tak"
MD5: F323EB8CC18FA1467A08BD966948A702
CRC32: 5D6CB218
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\02. A Little Bit Stronger.wav"
MD5: F323EB8CC18FA1467A08BD966948A702
CRC32: 5D6CB218
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\03. My Heart Can't Tell You No.tak"
MD5: EFBDB2BA5D2CF4090CBBC52CB859BE60
CRC32: FF639028
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\03. My Heart Can't Tell You No.wav"
MD5: EFBDB2BA5D2CF4090CBBC52CB859BE60
CRC32: FF639028
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\04. Anywhere.tak"
MD5: 486998CCBB67C144CE6786019371E036
CRC32: CD82EF1D
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\04. Anywhere.wav"
MD5: 486998CCBB67C144CE6786019371E036
CRC32: CD82EF1D
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\05. Alone.tak"
MD5: 243DE8364D81FFC8FE33107273E65863
CRC32: B7F53113
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\05. Alone.wav"
MD5: 243DE8364D81FFC8FE33107273E65863
CRC32: B7F53113
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\06. Ticket To Ride.tak"
MD5: C45F19A945CB72CCA8B81150851A932A
CRC32: 76B7E44F
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\06. Ticket To Ride.wav"
MD5: C45F19A945CB72CCA8B81150851A932A
CRC32: 76B7E44F
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\07. Life Without Losing.tak"
MD5: B0526DE645D9B10EC1D2B63D1F6DBB3B
CRC32: 3A2723C1
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\07. Life Without Losing.wav"
MD5: B0526DE645D9B10EC1D2B63D1F6DBB3B
CRC32: 3A2723C1
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\08. What That Drink Cost Me.tak"
MD5: B9E747A5210E29796CAF720035DF2809
CRC32: A5D464CE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\08. What That Drink Cost Me.wav"
MD5: B9E747A5210E29796CAF720035DF2809
CRC32: A5D464CE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\09. Wildfire.tak"
MD5: 045DAAC28BA8FBF5B6F06D84D2C42C5A
CRC32: 5739ECFE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\09. Wildfire.wav"
MD5: 045DAAC28BA8FBF5B6F06D84D2C42C5A
CRC32: 5739ECFE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\10. Born To Fly (Bluegrass Version).tak"
MD5: 1563D1F2FB08BAE898CDC1B3B3EDCE47
CRC32: 75AFC5AC
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\10. Born To Fly (Bluegrass Version).wav"
MD5: 1563D1F2FB08BAE898CDC1B3B3EDCE47
CRC32: 75AFC5AC
No problems found.


All items decoded successfully.

Bit Comparison:
Code: [Select]
Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\01. Desperately.tak"
MD5: EA41B8E89DCF097D78D6F7F7A52F9CC4
CRC32: 99BB3CD7
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\01. Desperately.wav"
MD5: EA41B8E89DCF097D78D6F7F7A52F9CC4
CRC32: 99BB3CD7
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\02. A Little Bit Stronger.tak"
MD5: F323EB8CC18FA1467A08BD966948A702
CRC32: 5D6CB218
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\02. A Little Bit Stronger.wav"
MD5: F323EB8CC18FA1467A08BD966948A702
CRC32: 5D6CB218
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\03. My Heart Can't Tell You No.tak"
MD5: EFBDB2BA5D2CF4090CBBC52CB859BE60
CRC32: FF639028
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\03. My Heart Can't Tell You No.wav"
MD5: EFBDB2BA5D2CF4090CBBC52CB859BE60
CRC32: FF639028
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\04. Anywhere.tak"
MD5: 486998CCBB67C144CE6786019371E036
CRC32: CD82EF1D
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\04. Anywhere.wav"
MD5: 486998CCBB67C144CE6786019371E036
CRC32: CD82EF1D
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\05. Alone.tak"
MD5: 243DE8364D81FFC8FE33107273E65863
CRC32: B7F53113
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\05. Alone.wav"
MD5: 243DE8364D81FFC8FE33107273E65863
CRC32: B7F53113
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\06. Ticket To Ride.tak"
MD5: C45F19A945CB72CCA8B81150851A932A
CRC32: 76B7E44F
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\06. Ticket To Ride.wav"
MD5: C45F19A945CB72CCA8B81150851A932A
CRC32: 76B7E44F
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\07. Life Without Losing.tak"
MD5: B0526DE645D9B10EC1D2B63D1F6DBB3B
CRC32: 3A2723C1
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\07. Life Without Losing.wav"
MD5: B0526DE645D9B10EC1D2B63D1F6DBB3B
CRC32: 3A2723C1
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\08. What That Drink Cost Me.tak"
MD5: B9E747A5210E29796CAF720035DF2809
CRC32: A5D464CE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\08. What That Drink Cost Me.wav"
MD5: B9E747A5210E29796CAF720035DF2809
CRC32: A5D464CE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\09. Wildfire.tak"
MD5: 045DAAC28BA8FBF5B6F06D84D2C42C5A
CRC32: 5739ECFE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\09. Wildfire.wav"
MD5: 045DAAC28BA8FBF5B6F06D84D2C42C5A
CRC32: 5739ECFE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\10. Born To Fly (Bluegrass Version).tak"
MD5: 1563D1F2FB08BAE898CDC1B3B3EDCE47
CRC32: 75AFC5AC
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\10. Born To Fly (Bluegrass Version).wav"
MD5: 1563D1F2FB08BAE898CDC1B3B3EDCE47
CRC32: 75AFC5AC
No problems found.


All items decoded successfully.


Ran another test on another HDCD album "Carly Simon - Boys In The Trees (1978)' [Peak extension enabled] This time, though, I decompressed the original album into 24-bit WavPack files (Extra High) and compared it to TAK 2.2.0 Alpha to see how it handled block size

WavPack (Extra High)

254 MB

TAK 2.2.0 Alpha (-p4m)

231 MB

That's a 23 MB difference in file size (in TAK 2.2.0 Alpha's favor)

MD5 - CRC Comparison:
Code: [Select]
Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\01. Desperately.tak"
MD5: EA41B8E89DCF097D78D6F7F7A52F9CC4
CRC32: 99BB3CD7
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\01. Desperately.wav"
MD5: EA41B8E89DCF097D78D6F7F7A52F9CC4
CRC32: 99BB3CD7
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\02. A Little Bit Stronger.tak"
MD5: F323EB8CC18FA1467A08BD966948A702
CRC32: 5D6CB218
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\02. A Little Bit Stronger.wav"
MD5: F323EB8CC18FA1467A08BD966948A702
CRC32: 5D6CB218
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\03. My Heart Can't Tell You No.tak"
MD5: EFBDB2BA5D2CF4090CBBC52CB859BE60
CRC32: FF639028
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\03. My Heart Can't Tell You No.wav"
MD5: EFBDB2BA5D2CF4090CBBC52CB859BE60
CRC32: FF639028
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\04. Anywhere.tak"
MD5: 486998CCBB67C144CE6786019371E036
CRC32: CD82EF1D
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\04. Anywhere.wav"
MD5: 486998CCBB67C144CE6786019371E036
CRC32: CD82EF1D
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\05. Alone.tak"
MD5: 243DE8364D81FFC8FE33107273E65863
CRC32: B7F53113
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\05. Alone.wav"
MD5: 243DE8364D81FFC8FE33107273E65863
CRC32: B7F53113
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\06. Ticket To Ride.tak"
MD5: C45F19A945CB72CCA8B81150851A932A
CRC32: 76B7E44F
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\06. Ticket To Ride.wav"
MD5: C45F19A945CB72CCA8B81150851A932A
CRC32: 76B7E44F
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\07. Life Without Losing.tak"
MD5: B0526DE645D9B10EC1D2B63D1F6DBB3B
CRC32: 3A2723C1
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\07. Life Without Losing.wav"
MD5: B0526DE645D9B10EC1D2B63D1F6DBB3B
CRC32: 3A2723C1
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\08. What That Drink Cost Me.tak"
MD5: B9E747A5210E29796CAF720035DF2809
CRC32: A5D464CE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\08. What That Drink Cost Me.wav"
MD5: B9E747A5210E29796CAF720035DF2809
CRC32: A5D464CE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\09. Wildfire.tak"
MD5: 045DAAC28BA8FBF5B6F06D84D2C42C5A
CRC32: 5739ECFE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\09. Wildfire.wav"
MD5: 045DAAC28BA8FBF5B6F06D84D2C42C5A
CRC32: 5739ECFE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\10. Born To Fly (Bluegrass Version).tak"
MD5: 1563D1F2FB08BAE898CDC1B3B3EDCE47
CRC32: 75AFC5AC
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\10. Born To Fly (Bluegrass Version).wav"
MD5: 1563D1F2FB08BAE898CDC1B3B3EDCE47
CRC32: 75AFC5AC
No problems found.


All items decoded successfully.

Bit Comparison:
Code: [Select]
Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\01. Desperately.tak"
MD5: EA41B8E89DCF097D78D6F7F7A52F9CC4
CRC32: 99BB3CD7
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\01. Desperately.wav"
MD5: EA41B8E89DCF097D78D6F7F7A52F9CC4
CRC32: 99BB3CD7
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\02. A Little Bit Stronger.tak"
MD5: F323EB8CC18FA1467A08BD966948A702
CRC32: 5D6CB218
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\02. A Little Bit Stronger.wav"
MD5: F323EB8CC18FA1467A08BD966948A702
CRC32: 5D6CB218
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\03. My Heart Can't Tell You No.tak"
MD5: EFBDB2BA5D2CF4090CBBC52CB859BE60
CRC32: FF639028
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\03. My Heart Can't Tell You No.wav"
MD5: EFBDB2BA5D2CF4090CBBC52CB859BE60
CRC32: FF639028
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\04. Anywhere.tak"
MD5: 486998CCBB67C144CE6786019371E036
CRC32: CD82EF1D
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\04. Anywhere.wav"
MD5: 486998CCBB67C144CE6786019371E036
CRC32: CD82EF1D
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\05. Alone.tak"
MD5: 243DE8364D81FFC8FE33107273E65863
CRC32: B7F53113
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\05. Alone.wav"
MD5: 243DE8364D81FFC8FE33107273E65863
CRC32: B7F53113
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\06. Ticket To Ride.tak"
MD5: C45F19A945CB72CCA8B81150851A932A
CRC32: 76B7E44F
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\06. Ticket To Ride.wav"
MD5: C45F19A945CB72CCA8B81150851A932A
CRC32: 76B7E44F
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\07. Life Without Losing.tak"
MD5: B0526DE645D9B10EC1D2B63D1F6DBB3B
CRC32: 3A2723C1
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\07. Life Without Losing.wav"
MD5: B0526DE645D9B10EC1D2B63D1F6DBB3B
CRC32: 3A2723C1
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\08. What That Drink Cost Me.tak"
MD5: B9E747A5210E29796CAF720035DF2809
CRC32: A5D464CE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\08. What That Drink Cost Me.wav"
MD5: B9E747A5210E29796CAF720035DF2809
CRC32: A5D464CE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\09. Wildfire.tak"
MD5: 045DAAC28BA8FBF5B6F06D84D2C42C5A
CRC32: 5739ECFE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\09. Wildfire.wav"
MD5: 045DAAC28BA8FBF5B6F06D84D2C42C5A
CRC32: 5739ECFE
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\10. Born To Fly (Bluegrass Version).tak"
MD5: 1563D1F2FB08BAE898CDC1B3B3EDCE47
CRC32: 75AFC5AC
No problems found.

Item: "C:\Documents and Settings\Default User\My Documents\My Music\Sara Evans\2011 - Stronger (HDCD)\10. Born To Fly (Bluegrass Version).wav"
MD5: 1563D1F2FB08BAE898CDC1B3B3EDCE47
CRC32: 75AFC5AC
No problems found.


All items decoded successfully.

  • Destroid
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #38
Maybe you could test your files with FLAC and WavPack to obtain a more complete picture?

I would be happy if someone included WavPack in the comparison, but I believe that the configuration used in the other testing thread (-hhx) might be suboptimal for multichannel and high sampling rates. The first issue is that multichannel WavPack files will use shorter blocks and those end up being less efficient with the longer headers of the very high mode, so it might even be that the regular high mode (-h) is better (and certainly faster to encode and decode). Also, the -x1 to -x3 options are optimized for regular 44.1 KHz audio, so they are not ideal for the LFE channel of a multichannel stream or 96 KHz sampling rates. The -x4 to -x6 options generate custom decorrelation filters, so they work better (sometimes much better) than the lower ones in these cases.

Maybe a good comparison configuration (that would not be too slow at encoding) would be -hx4 (or even -x4 if that was still too slow). These might improve WavPack's compression a little compared to the other test (especially at 96 or 192 KHz), but I'm sure it still won't get close to the values for this new TAK (which is a great piece of work, Thomas, congratulations!)

David
I am embarrassed to admit that I did not remember WavPack handled multichannel (nor FLAC). My apologies. I have a good idea why I might have missed knowing so.

At any rate, I am most happy to run some more tests. Here's what I have got to work with: DTS extracted from  DVD's, hard rock music at live venues, 5.1 channels, 48KHz. I suppose (unless advised otherwise) WavPack -h and FLAC -8.

I will also use a slightly different test corpus than previous tests. I noticed D1-05 was noticeably different from other files and plan to focus on those (FYI, I recall D1-05 was a solo acoustic guitar performance w/no vocals).

Thanks to all (especially Thomas) for their feedback
"Something bothering you, Mister Spock?"

  • TBeck
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #39
Maybe a good comparison configuration (that would not be too slow at encoding) would be -hx4 (or even -x4 if that was still too slow). These might improve WavPack's compression a little compared to the other test (especially at 96 or 192 KHz), but I'm sure it still won't get close to the values for this new TAK (which is a great piece of work, Thomas, congratulations!)

Thank you, this means a lot to me!

Tested TAK 2.2.0 Alpha on an HDCD album "Sara Evans - Stronger (2011)" [Peak extension disabled]
...
All items decoded successfully.
...
Ran another test on another HDCD album "Carly Simon - Boys In The Trees (1978)' [Peak extension enabled] This time, though, I decompressed the original album into 24-bit WavPack files (Extra High) and compared it to TAK 2.2.0 Alpha to see how it handled block size
...
All items decoded successfully.

Great! Thank you.

At any rate, I am most happy to run some more tests. Here's what I have got to work with: DTS extracted from  DVD's, hard rock music at live venues, 5.1 channels, 48KHz. I suppose (unless advised otherwise) WavPack -h and FLAC -8.

I will also use a slightly different test corpus than previous tests. I noticed D1-05 was noticeably different from other files and plan to focus on those (FYI, I recall D1-05 was a solo acoustic guitar performance w/no vocals).

And... time for another 'Thank you'.

  • bryant
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer (Donating)
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #40
Ran another test on another HDCD album "Carly Simon - Boys In The Trees (1978)' [Peak extension enabled] This time, though, I decompressed the original album into 24-bit WavPack files (Extra High) and compared it to TAK 2.2.0 Alpha to see how it handled block size

WavPack (Extra High)

254 MB

TAK 2.2.0 Alpha (-p4m)

231 MB

That's a 23 MB difference in file size (in TAK 2.2.0 Alpha's favor)

Thanks for including WavPack in your test!

I'm not sure what command-line options you used, but adding "--blocksize=256 --merge-blocks" can make a huge improvement for decoded HDCD files. WavPack blocks are pretty big by default, and so special options are required to get good results from these files (or lossyWAV files, which have similar kind of redundancy).

  • RastaMan
  • [*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #41
The original tests were run using the highest compression levels of both codecs, without modification. Didn't think to add the relative switches for block size control. So I redid the test again with them in the mix.

Carly Simon - Boys In The Trees (1978) [HDCD] (Peak extension enabled)

TAK -p4m -fsl512

220 MB



WavPack -h -x2 --blocksize=256 --merge-blocks

219 MB



This time around, WavPack has a 1 MB edge. Extremely close.

  • Ljubo44
  • [*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #42
Any chance to play tak format with windows media player ?

  • lvqcl
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #43

  • Ljubo44
  • [*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #44
Tired before, installed from C:/Temp from bat as admin without errors on w7 64. But..

Windows Media Player cannot play the file. The Player might not support the file type or might not support the codec that was used to compress the file.

Tired to replace newer "tak_deco_lib.dll" in windows/system32. But same message from wmp

Windows Media Player cannot play the file. The Player might not support the file type or might not support the codec that was used to compress the file. 

anyway thanks for help.

  • TBeck
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #45
I want to prepare a final release.

Therefore, if anyone has encountered any problems with this alpha release, now is a good time to report them.

Currently the only difference between this alpha and the final release consists in a modified wave file reader, which supports meta data located at the end of the wave file. Not enough to initiate an additional beta release.


  • Manlord
  • [*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #46
I dont have any multichannel file, but if any test with standard files is needed I will be happy to help.

  • CoRoNe
  • [*][*][*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #47
*bump*
Quote
Hello Thomas,

On the Hydrogenaudio KB I can see cue sheets and cover art are already on your to-do list, but how much of a priority are they?
Currently I'm using WavPack (-hhx -w "Cuesheet=@*.cue" --write-binary-tag "Cover Art (Front)=@*.png"). I've already been experimenting a little with TAK and of course I can add cue sheets and cover art afterwards with Mp3tag because of the APEtag, but once TAK supports it natively I'm really thinking of switching over.
Keep up the good work!
DC-Bass Source Mod: http://reino.degeelebosch.nl

  • Destroid
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #48
Therefore, if anyone has encountered any problems with this alpha release, now is a good time to report them.

No problems here, all the TAK files decoded with no differences. Obviously I didn't get my last comparison done, there was desktop computer disaster (an electricity outage in my area made my harddrives disappear from the BIOS, turned out half the power regulating capacitors on the mainboard blew). I'll slate that comparison after final release of 2.2.0.
"Something bothering you, Mister Spock?"

  • TBeck
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
TAK 2.2.0 - Alpha release
Reply #49
I dont have any multichannel file, but if any test with standard files is needed I will be happy to help.

Since i have performed a lot of code optimizations which affect standard files as well, i would be happy if you tested the final release.

*bump*
Quote
Hello Thomas,

On the Hydrogenaudio KB I can see cue sheets and cover art are already on your to-do list, but how much of a priority are they?
Currently I'm using WavPack (-hhx -w "Cuesheet=@*.cue" --write-binary-tag "Cover Art (Front)=@*.png"). I've already been experimenting a little with TAK and of course I can add cue sheets and cover art afterwards with Mp3tag because of the APEtag, but once TAK supports it natively I'm really thinking of switching over.
Keep up the good work!


The inclusion of the cuesheet should already work, although not with the '*' placeholder:

Code: [Select]
-tt #      Add textual tag item #, where # is a key/value pair: "key=value",
           for instance "TITLE=A nice song". "key=@file" will read the value
           from the text(!) file "file" in the source directory.

The support for binary items like pictures is now on my todo list for V2.2.1. If nothing intervenes.

No problems here, all the TAK files decoded with no differences.

Fine!

Obviously I didn't get my last comparison done, there was desktop computer disaster (an electricity outage in my area made my harddrives disappear from the BIOS, turned out half the power regulating capacitors on the mainboard blew). I'll slate that comparison after final release of 2.2.0.

Good idea!

  Thomas