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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
I am ripping with EAC and encoding with Lame, (version 3.98). 99% of the time I get a perfect transition between tracks that are suppose to be gapless (I.E Pink floyd albums) but I have a few tracks that have a very very small tick or pop from one track to the next. EAC said copy was 100% perfect. I am using Foobar for P.C playback.

As i said it is not between every track just the odd one or two. Does anyone have any ideas? I have tried various releases of lame and EAC the Glitch is always in the same spot it and is not showing up in the WAV file, only the encoded Lame file

Thanks.

  • greynol
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #1
Gapless playback without pops/clicks/etc. with lossy is not a guarantee.  To make sure you don't have a problem with your EAC configuration, please post the contents of the log file.  Make sure to encapsulate the contents of the log file in a codebox.
Code: [Select]
[codebox]...[/codebox]
Your eyes cannot hear.

Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #2
Gapless playback without pops/clicks/etc. with lossy is not a guarantee.  To make sure you don't have a problem with your EAC configuration, please post the contents of the log file.  Make sure to encapsulate the contents of the log file in a codebox.
Code: [Select]
[codebox]...[/codebox]


When I get home from work tonight I will post an EAC log file but it's not EAC thats the problem it's the VBR Lame files. As per my 1st post the WAV files from EAC are perfect. I did read a post on Hydrogen audio that leads me to think it could be a VBR header thats to blame?

Thanks

  • Canar
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #3
If you rip it to a single file with cuesheet, then encode that file to MP3, you can split using pcutmp3 to generate a different kind of gapless information than LAME provides. Doing this might fix your problem.
1. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
2. Assume good faith.

Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #4
Gapless playback without pops/clicks/etc. with lossy is not a guarantee.  To make sure you don't have a problem with your EAC configuration, please post the contents of the log file.  Make sure to encapsulate the contents of the log file in a codebox.
Code: [Select]
[codebox]...[/codebox]


Code: [Select]
EAC extraction logfile from 9. June 2010, 1:20 for CD
Andy Partridge & Harold Budd / Through The Hill

Used drive  : ATAPI  DVD A  DH16A6L  Adapter: 0  ID: 1
Read mode  : Secure with NO C2, accurate stream, disable cache
Read offset correction : 6
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

Used output format : C:\Uberstandard Package - EAC - Lame\uberstandard\UberStandard\lame.exe  (User Defined Encoder)
                     320 kBit/s
                     Additional command line options : -V 0 --vbr-new -q 0 -m s --add-id3v2 --pad-id3v2 --ta "%a" --tt "%t" --tg "%m" --tl "%g" --ty "%y" --tn "%n" %s %d

Other options      :
   Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
   Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
   Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000


Track  1
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\01 - Hand 19.wav

     Peak level 74.3 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 1F7109A4
     Copy OK

Track  2
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\02 - Through The Hill.wav

     Peak level 59.5 %
     Track quality 99.9 %
     Copy CRC DC9AE384
     Copy OK

Track  3
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\03 - Great Valley Of Gongs.wav

     Peak level 54.9 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 8440658C
     Copy OK

Track  4
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\04 - Western Island Of Apples.wav

     Peak level 58.1 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 40A44FA4
     Copy OK

Track  5
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\05 - Anima Mundi.wav

     Peak level 72.1 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 1B677000
     Copy OK

Track  6
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\06 - Hand 20.wav

     Peak level 82.3 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC A298EBC9
     Copy OK

Track  7
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\07 - The Place Of Odd Glances.wav

     Peak level 59.2 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC D779E72D
     Copy OK

Track  8
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\08 - Well For The Sweat Of The Moon.wav

     Peak level 77.2 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 9071238D
     Copy OK

Track  9
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\09 - Tenochtitlan's Numberless Bridges.wav

     Peak level 73.1 %
     Track quality 99.9 %
     Copy CRC F703DA32
     Copy OK

Track 10
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\10 - Ceramic Avenue.wav

     Peak level 70.4 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 6A691ABE
     Copy OK

Track 11
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\11 - Hand 21.wav

     Peak level 56.7 %
     Track quality 99.9 %
     Copy CRC AE3B3295
     Copy OK

Track 12
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\12 - Missing Pieces To The Game Of Salt And Onyx.wav

     Peak level 66.3 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC BCB99C36
     Copy OK

Track 13
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\13 - Mantle Of Peacock Bones.wav

     Peak level 83.8 %
     Track quality 99.9 %
     Copy CRC 148DF162
     Copy OK

Track 14
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\14 - Bronze Coins Showing Genitals.wav

     Peak level 81.8 %
     Track quality 99.9 %
     Copy CRC 01C0EF72
     Copy OK

Track 15
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\15 - Bearded Aphrodite.wav

     Peak level 74.0 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC B1B010AB
     Copy OK

Track 16
     Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\16 - Hand 22.wav

     Peak level 78.7 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 29B53A99
     Copy OK

No errors occured


End of status report

Here is a log file from one of my rips

  • greynol
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #5
I missed the part about the wave files being ok.

Try Canar's solution.  It's pretty well guaranteed to work.
Your eyes cannot hear.

  • mixminus1
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #6
With fb2k, yes, and since that's what the OP is using, it should indeed work fine.

However, any time pcutmp3 and gapless are mentioned together, I think the standard caveat should always be mentioned for the sake of other readers/future searches/etc:  the pcutmp3-split files will very likely play gaplessly *only* in fb2k due to the unusually large padding value.  iTunes, iPods, Winamp, etc. will usually have audible gaps when playing such files.
"Not sure what the question is, but the answer is probably no."

  • Diow
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #7
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.
I'm using Detection Method A (Gap\Index Retrieval Method), Secure (Detection Accuracy).
That's the mode that in my drive doesn't introduces a tick on the begining of my rips... Test first changing the detection accuracy, if it works the problem is gone...


Code: [Select]
 Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 5 from 4. May 2009

EAC extraction logfile from 16. May 2010, 19:08

Pink Floyd / The Dark Side of the Moon

Used drive  : Optiarc DVD RW AD-7190A  Adapter: 0  ID: 0

Read mode              : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache      : No
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction                      : 6
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out          : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks  : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations      : No
Used interface                              : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000

Used output format              : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate                : 128 kBit/s
Quality                        : High
Add ID3 tag                    : No
Command line compressor        : C:\Program Files\foobar2000\Encoders\wavpack.exe
Additional command line options : -w "Artist=%a" -w "Title=%t" -w "Album=%g" -w "Year=%y" -w "Track=%n" -w "Genre=%m" -h %s %d


TOC of the extracted CD

     Track |  Start  |  Length  | Start sector | End sector
   ---------------------------------------------------------
       1  |  0:00.00 |  3:56.47 |        0    |    17746 
       2  |  3:56.47 |  3:35.05 |    17747    |    33876 
       3  |  7:31.52 |  7:04.70 |    33877    |    65746 
       4  | 14:36.47 |  4:47.13 |    65747    |    87284 
       5  | 19:23.60 |  6:22.22 |    87285    |  115956 
       6  | 25:46.07 |  7:50.15 |    115957    |  151221 
       7  | 33:36.22 |  3:25.55 |    151222    |  166651 
       8  | 37:02.02 |  3:50.35 |    166652    |  183936 
       9  | 40:52.37 |  2:03.13 |    183937    |  193174 


Range status and errors

Selected range

     Filename D:\CDS\Pink Floyd\(1973) The Dark Side Of The Moon (1993 Remaster)\Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon.wav

     Peak level 100.0 %
     Range quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC EDE66179
     Copy OK

No errors occurred

 
AccurateRip summary
 
Track  1  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [C9363CDC]
Track  2  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [6838F041]
Track  3  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [B75B0D5C]
Track  4  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [17CF8498]
Track  5  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [1B249DBE]
Track  6  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [23721A57]
Track  7  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [439B80B2]
Track  8  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [6D51A3EA]
Track  9  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [FF5D0D31]
 
All tracks accurately ripped

End of status report
  • Last Edit: 04 July, 2010, 10:27:31 PM by Diow
Sorry for my bad english.

Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #8
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.
I'm using Detection Method A (Gap\Index Retrieval Method), Secure (Detection Accuracy).
That's the mode that in my drive doesn't introduces a tick on the begining of my rips... Test first changing the detection accuracy, if it works the problem is gone...


Code: [Select]
 Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 5 from 4. May 2009

EAC extraction logfile from 16. May 2010, 19:08

Pink Floyd / The Dark Side of the Moon

Used drive  : Optiarc DVD RW AD-7190A  Adapter: 0  ID: 0

Read mode              : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache      : No
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction                      : 6
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out          : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks  : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations      : No
Used interface                              : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000

Used output format              : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate                : 128 kBit/s
Quality                        : High
Add ID3 tag                    : No
Command line compressor        : C:\Program Files\foobar2000\Encoders\wavpack.exe
Additional command line options : -w "Artist=%a" -w "Title=%t" -w "Album=%g" -w "Year=%y" -w "Track=%n" -w "Genre=%m" -h %s %d


TOC of the extracted CD

     Track |  Start  |  Length  | Start sector | End sector
   ---------------------------------------------------------
       1  |  0:00.00 |  3:56.47 |        0    |    17746 
       2  |  3:56.47 |  3:35.05 |    17747    |    33876 
       3  |  7:31.52 |  7:04.70 |    33877    |    65746 
       4  | 14:36.47 |  4:47.13 |    65747    |    87284 
       5  | 19:23.60 |  6:22.22 |    87285    |  115956 
       6  | 25:46.07 |  7:50.15 |    115957    |  151221 
       7  | 33:36.22 |  3:25.55 |    151222    |  166651 
       8  | 37:02.02 |  3:50.35 |    166652    |  183936 
       9  | 40:52.37 |  2:03.13 |    183937    |  193174 


Range status and errors

Selected range

     Filename D:\CDS\Pink Floyd\(1973) The Dark Side Of The Moon (1993 Remaster)\Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon.wav

     Peak level 100.0 %
     Range quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC EDE66179
     Copy OK

No errors occurred

 
AccurateRip summary
 
Track  1  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [C9363CDC]
Track  2  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [6838F041]
Track  3  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [B75B0D5C]
Track  4  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [17CF8498]
Track  5  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [1B249DBE]
Track  6  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [23721A57]
Track  7  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [439B80B2]
Track  8  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [6D51A3EA]
Track  9  accurately ripped (confidence 2)  [FF5D0D31]
 
All tracks accurately ripped

End of status report

Its not the gap detection. Wav files ripped using the same settings and not encoded play perfectly with no gap or click between tracks.

  • greynol
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #9
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.

Gap detection is quite different than the topic that's being discussed.  We're talking about additional silence added to the beginning and ending of mp3 files, not the areas on a CD that are marked with a 00 index.
Your eyes cannot hear.

Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #10
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.

Gap detection is quite different than the topic that's being discussed.  We're talking about additional silence added to the beginning and ending of mp3 files, not the areas on a CD that are marked with a 00 index.


Is there a Programm that will get rid of the additional silence? I wonder why it's only on a select few files?

  • pdq
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #11
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.

Gap detection is quite different than the topic that's being discussed.  We're talking about additional silence added to the beginning and ending of mp3 files, not the areas on a CD that are marked with a 00 index.


Is there a Programm that will get rid of the additional silence? I wonder why it's only on a select few files?

The small pop you hear is not related to additional silence. This silence is already eliminated by your player or else you would have much larger problems than small pops.

The small pop is due to separate encodes of the two tracks. The encoder is not matching the level at the end of the first track to the level at the start of the second track, thus the small pop at the junction of the two. The only sure way to eliminate this, as has been pointed out, is to encode them as a single track and then break the file up into separate tracks.

Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #12
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.

Gap detection is quite different than the topic that's being discussed.  We're talking about additional silence added to the beginning and ending of mp3 files, not the areas on a CD that are marked with a 00 index.


Is there a Programm that will get rid of the additional silence? I wonder why it's only on a select few files?

The small pop you hear is not related to additional silence. This silence is already eliminated by your player or else you would have much larger problems than small pops.

The small pop is due to separate encodes of the two tracks. The encoder is not matching the level at the end of the first track to the level at the start of the second track, thus the small pop at the junction of the two. The only sure way to eliminate this, as has been pointed out, is to encode them as a single track and then break the file up into separate tracks.


Is there no other way to fix this problem? If this is common when encoding usin VBR then I am suprised that no one has come up with a fix.

  • pdq
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #13
Is there no other way to fix this problem? If this is common when encoding usin VBR then I am suprised that no one has come up with a fix.

VBR has nothing to do with it. CBR is just as likely to have the problem. This is an encoder issue, and I suspect that other codecs besides mp3 also suffer from it.

The problem is that the encoder's task is to make THIS file sound as much like the original as possible, and beginning or ending at a particular level is not a requirement.

  • greynol
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #14
If this is common when encoding usin VBR then I am suprised that no one has come up with a fix.

pdq gave you the correct answer (twice now), but you said it yourself, it isn't common...
99% of the time I get a perfect transition between tracks that are suppose to be gapless (I.E Pink floyd albums) but I have a few tracks that have a very very small tick or pop from one track to the next. EAC said copy was 100% perfect.
[...]
As i said it is not between every track just the odd one or two.

Your eyes cannot hear.

  • Corsair
  • [*]
Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #15
Is there no other way to fix this problem? If this is common when encoding usin VBR then I am suprised that no one has come up with a fix.

VBR has nothing to do with it. CBR is just as likely to have the problem. This is an encoder issue, and I suspect that other codecs besides mp3 also suffer from it.

The problem is that the encoder's task is to make THIS file sound as much like the original as possible, and beginning or ending at a particular level is not a requirement.


One of the solutions I think could help would be to encode the beginning and the end of the WAV file at maximum bitrate (320 kbps) if the WAV does not start/end with silence, when using VBR. This should improve the accuracy on file transitions and the bitrate increase would be negligible (if any).

Other codecs suffer from this problem too, except (in my experience) Ogg Vorbis at -q6 (or higher, I tested aoTuV version) because I was unable to find any artifacts on file transitions.

  • Canar
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  • Your mom's favourite moderator
Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #16
However, any time pcutmp3 and gapless are mentioned together, I think the standard caveat should always be mentioned for the sake of other readers/future searches/etc:  the pcutmp3-split files will very likely play gaplessly *only* in fb2k due to the unusually large padding value.  iTunes, iPods, Winamp, etc. will usually have audible gaps when playing such files.
Do you have evidence of this claim? I've never heard this. foobar2000 had to be modified to play them correctly, but I suspect that's only because Peter is such a stickler for details that he limited it to what he knew to be valid values.

One of the solutions I think could help would be to encode the beginning and the end of the WAV file at maximum bitrate (320 kbps) if the WAV does not start/end with silence, when using VBR. This should improve the accuracy on file transitions and the bitrate increase would be negligible (if any).
pcutmp3 does it perfectly, as it duplicates the data on either side of the transition. This should allow for gapless with no discontinuity ever, provided it's supported by the decoder.
  • Last Edit: 08 July, 2010, 07:49:32 PM by Canar
1. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
2. Assume good faith.

Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #17
[/quote]pcutmp3 does it perfectly, as it duplicates the data on either side of the transition. This should allow for gapless with no discontinuity ever, provided it's supported by the decoder.
[/quote]


pcutmp3 would seem to be the way to go but am having problems getting it installed

  • trout
  • [*][*][*][*]
Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #18
...and is not showing up in the WAV file, only the encoded Lame file

It may be helpful if you could upload some WAV samples to see if the problem can be reproduced, or for any possible clues within the samples. Like 10 seconds from each track on either side of a gapless transition where the problem exists. (be sure to mind the upload rule: ''No over 30 sec clips of copyrighted music.'')

Code: [Select]
Additional command line options : -V 0 --vbr-new -q 0 -m s

An observation apart from the gapless issue; Are you sure all of those commands are a good idea?

  • db1989
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #19
Code: [Select]
Additional command line options : -V 0 --vbr-new -q 0 -m s
An observation apart from the gapless issue; Are you sure all of those commands are a good idea?
-q0 is redundant, as values from 0-3 are equivalent under --vbr-new.
-ms is never a good idea, but equally we'll never get a break from having to tell people that.

Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #20
New Command line

Code: [Select]
-V0 --add-id3v2 --pad-id3v2 --ta "%a" --tt "%t" --tg "%m" --tl "%g" --ty "%y" --tn "%n" %s %d

Click gone problem solved. Many thanks to those that tried to help.
  • Last Edit: 19 July, 2010, 01:07:48 AM by andrew22690

Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #21
Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
I am ripping with EAC and encoding with Lame, (version 3.98). 99% of the time I get a perfect transition between tracks that are suppose to be gapless (I.E Pink floyd albums) but I have a few tracks that have a very very small tick or pop from one track to the next. EAC said copy was 100% perfect. I am using Foobar for P.C playback.

As i said it is not between every track just the odd one or two. Does anyone have any ideas? I have tried various releases of lame and EAC the Glitch is always in the same spot it and is not showing up in the WAV file, only the encoded Lame file

Thanks.


I've run into commercial recordings that have DC offsets recorded into the data. If for some reason you have a transition from the DC offset track to a true 0 offset track, you will hear a small click at the transition. I'm an Audition guy and identifying/correcting offsets with Audition ( CoolEdit ) is incredibly easy. Other software is probably easy as well but I have no experience.


  • db1989
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #22
But such a DC offset caused click would occur between the source WAV files too, which the OP stated does/did not occur. The problem has been identified as being due to LAME not accounting for any lossily-introduced difference between two tracks' last and first samples respectively.

andrew22690, I wonder how your new command line fixed the issue; it doesn't look to me to have anything that would affect this behaviour.

Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #23
Code: [Select]
Additional command line options : -V 0 --vbr-new -q 0 -m s
An observation apart from the gapless issue; Are you sure all of those commands are a good idea?
-q0 is redundant, as values from 0-3 are equivalent under --vbr-new.
-ms is never a good idea, but equally we'll never get a break from having to tell people that.


What is the purpose of ms in the command line?



Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
Reply #24
andrew22690, I wonder how your new command line fixed the issue; it doesn't look to me to have anything that would affect this behaviour.


Yes!!I got all exited when I couldn't hear the Gap/click, turns out it was still there, although very much reduced.