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Topic: Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning? (Read 15550 times) previous topic - next topic
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Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Hello fellow nitwits! (j/k!) I have a question that's been gnawing me for a while. Ok, here we go:

A friend of mine told me the other day that he recently got himself a CD cleaner. Not just a piece of cloth and some special detergent. No, it was a little apparatus, like a small dish washer, in which you put the CD's for a good cleaning. By doing that, the bass and treble would become richer and clearer, if grubby of course. We're not talking about scratches or really dirty CD's here either. I didn't want to be rude and dismiss him totally, but after being a member here for many years, I kindly waved him off, huffing at the same time:) I was also quick to dismiss him because a year ago he totally failed to ABX a 96 kbps mp3 from the original.

I told him I was pretty sure CD's don't work like that. Either the CD player picks up the data or it does not. Vinyl might benefit from it, but not CD's because there you have "zeros" and "ones". He then told me that music CD's and data discs aren't the same, and my statement might hold true for a data disc, but not for a music CD.

He is a person who has the latest and most expensive audio gear you could possibly imagine, but still listening mostly to vinyl. You know who I'm talking about:) He then sent me a link (in Swedish, but it can be translated very accurately with Google Translate.) which filled me with doubts.

http://www.svalander.se/tankar/digital.htm

So pleeeease, let me know what you think? Was my friend suckered into buying this CD washing machine, or does he have a point?

/The Dictator

//From the barren lands of the Northsmen

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #1 –
That´s a question...

I am washing my CDs for years now. I also did this to most of my DVDs. Several years ago there was a case of "laser rot" with some DVDs. I own one of these DVDs: the first edition of "Silence of the Lambs". Many people were reporting that some strange things appeared on their DVD. It looked like the readable DVD surface literally was rotting away. This "rotting" was so strong that MGM offered to replace the affected DVDs. However, my DVD didn´t show this rotting... well, this is not entirely true. The DVD "Silence of the Lambs" consisted of two DVDs: the movie on Disc 1 and the extras on Disc 2. I didn´t wash the second disc and I could clearly see the "rotting". I washed the DVD and the rotting was gone.

What happened? Some wax used in the production of these DVD was left on the surface, this seems to be a normal condition. Under usual circumstances this wax is transparent to the eye and to the laser. But here some fumes in the printed material used for the casing caused the wax to "rot". It actually wasn´t rotting, it just was a chemical reaction. By washing my DVD I obviously had removed the wax so that it couldn´t react with the fumes.

Why do I still wash my CDs? Because I got used to it over the years. I tried to DBT the sonical results of washed vs. unwashed CDs, I found none. I still do it though just to make sure but I can´t find any logical reason for it. And I certainly wouldn´t buy a machine that does the washing for me - because there is no effect and therefore for me this is an unnecessary gadget.

Warm water and a little amount of detergent completely suffices.
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #2 –
Cavaille, I hope you are just kidding. Do you seriously wash optical media with soap and water? Bizarre 

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #3 –
I would certainly believe that if the CD is dirty enough, it starts to stutter, not lose the treble or bass. But if it's readable the bass and treble stay intact. Or no?
//From the barren lands of the Northsmen

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: rohangc on
Cavaille, I hope you are just kidding. Do you seriously wash optical media with soap and water? Bizarre 
Yeah, go ahead and ridicule me. I´m used to it. But please remember that there can be things that you do despite knowing that they are pointless. You could describe it as one of the little paranoid things everyone does... I don´t feel right about a CD if I didn´t wash it. You could call this my "biggest-known-placebo". 


Quote from: DigitalDictator on
I would certainly believe that if the CD is dirty enough, it starts to stutter, not lose the treble or bass. But if it's readable the bass and treble stay intact. Or no?
If a CD is dirty the error correction kicks in. And if it´s readable it will always have the same sonic signature no matter if it´s washed or not. I mean that´s the point of being digital.
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: DigitalDictator on
I would certainly believe that if the CD is dirty enough, it starts to stutter, not lose the treble or bass. But if it's readable the bass and treble stay intact. Or no?


That's right.
The CD is READ ONLY media. The bits and bytes don't change if you wash it, or if you put it under the light source. They don't change. They don't move. They are always there, in the same order they are pressed/written on. If they are readable, the decoding result will always be the same.

The only way for them to change if to forcefully destroy the disk by breaking it or putting it into microwave oven (DON'T DO THIS!), or by simply get damaged over time because of the poor media quality or some manufacturing error. But by then they can't be readable as well.
TAPE LOADING ERROR

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #6 –
What the article says is that if the CD-player can't read the "ones" and the "zeros" properly, it approximates (guesses) the values and because of that, the sound may become distorted rather than faulty.
//From the barren lands of the Northsmen

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #7 –
Yes, but as Cavaille said, such interpolation/errors will not have such a neatly definable effect as making the bass and treble less "rich and clear", or anything of the sort. Interpolation will probably be inaudible, while other errors may manifest as unpleasant pops, distortions, etc.

Quote from: DigitalDictator on
I didn't want to be rude and dismiss him totally, . . .

I'm afraid you're going to have to! Wishy-washy (pardon the pun ) nonsense like "the bass and treble would become richer and clearer, if grubby of course" is an almost infallible guarantee there's no basis to someone's claims.

Quote
. . . but after being a member here for many years, I kindly waved him off, huffing at the same time:) I was also quick to dismiss him because a year ago he totally failed to ABX a 96 kbps mp3 from the original.

I hope he didn't make an excuse about blind tests being just not the same.

Quote
I told him I was pretty sure CD's don't work like that. Either the CD player picks up the data or it does not. Vinyl might benefit from it, but not CD's because there you have "zeros" and "ones".

Exactly. And even if (and it's a big if) there are 'tricks' that can reduce the likelihood of errors, as noted above they won't manifest as any dramatic sonic improvement, but just a reduction of interpolation (again, probably inaudible) and errors.

Edit: I really doubt washing would be good for vinyl. Unless one uses a Brillo pad, of course. And it MUST be a genuine one; cheap supermarket imitations utterly demolish the soundstage.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: DigitalDictator on
http://www.svalander.se/tankar/digital.htm
Oh for goodness sake!

I can't even read it, but it links to this classic...

http://www.johnvestman.com/digital_myth.htm
Quote
DVD+R's are fussy, and they don't sound good. Yes, even for data.  Use DVD-R's instead.

etc etc etc!


I washed a CD once and the printing washed off. I've actually washed a few CDs (because they became too dirty or finger marked to play), but the label only washed off one!

Depending on the type of music, and the level of damage, the error correction can be audible in ways which some people might not immediately realise is error correction - but that's a rare, marginal case. What your friend describes is placebo!

Cheers,
David.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #9 –
What timing! I was needing a new signature.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #10 –
Netflix recommends cleaning skipping DVDs with window cleaner:

"If you can’t play a DVD, try cleaning it first - window cleaner on a paper towel works well."

I have no idea if they care about the longevity of the DVD itself.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
I washed a CD once and the printing washed off. I've actually washed a few CDs (because they became too dirty or finger marked to play), but the label only washed off one!
Over the years I´ve washed over 700 CDs - one out of these broke apart during the process and another one lost it´s label (and it wasn´t even a printed label, it was one of those older TELARC-CDs).

I seldomly wash my DVDs anymore.... but of my 400 DVD´s there was only one which fell apart. I guess it was washed too hot   
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: DigitalDictator on
He then told me that music CD's and data discs aren't the same, and my statement might hold true for a data disc, but not for a music CD.

While he's right about Audio CDs and Data CDs not being the same, Audio CDs are still digital and still have two levels of error correction.  As has been mentioned earlier, errors can often be concealed.  When they are too bad to be concealed they will be audible as clicks, skipping and dropouts.  The idea that they can be detected as differences in bass, treble or soundstage (I just love that one) should be dismissed if not accompanied by hard evidence.  As usual, anecdotes and sighted tests are not examples of hard evidence.

Quote from: zipr on
"...window cleaner on a paper towel works well."

I'm cool with the glass cleaner, though I liberally spray it on directly, gently rub away oil and debris with a clean finger, rinse with hot water, shake the drips off and then buff dry with a soft cloth or plush towel.  Paper towel should be ok in place of the finger, though in either case there should be enough liquid present so prevent scratching.  Paper towel can be abrasive if not saturated with cleaner.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #13 –
Just to add to the count: I've needed to clean CDs,and a couple of DVDs, a number of times, especially for a player that was getting, I presume, slightly out of alignment. Cleaning fingerprints, or anything else not totaly transparent, off the bottom surface usually made a difference, but the difference was purely a matter of reading without skipping vs making a lot of unpleasant noise while trying to read the disk.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #14 –
Thanks guys, this is exactly what I needed, and anticipated. I'll let him read the whole thread at home with a nice cup of coffee and time to let it all sink in. I guess I can't hide my first post from him, bummer...
//From the barren lands of the Northsmen

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: rohangc on
Cavaille, I hope you are just kidding. Do you seriously wash optical media with soap and water? Bizarre 



Not very.  I've done it to rented DVDs, and occasionally to stuff I own, typically if thumbprints are causing stuttering.  It often works to fix that.  I rinse the disc first , then put a pinch of liquid dish soap on the play side, smear it around with a finger or a soft wet cloth, then rinse thoroughly and pat dry with paper towels. Window cleaner has worked too.  I only put the cleaner on the play side.

( For 'audible' scratches, more vigorous intervention is necessary, with some kind of mild abrasive, or something that transparently fills the scratches.)

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: DigitalDictator on
...SWas my friend suckered into buying this CD washing machine...

/The Dictator


Yes.

Even if a CD is scratched or dirty it doesn't mean the data in it was damaged or couldn't be read. Just rip the CD and see if it matches the Accurate rip data base.

Cleaning with a dry cloth and/or water should be enough.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: krabapple on
( For 'audible' scratches, more vigorous intervention is necessary, with some kind of mild abrasive, or something that transparently fills the scratches.)
Toothpaste. Or, a bit more professional, a repair set with Sandpaper in different strengths - I have one and for badly scratched discs it always works wonderfully. Won´t work of course if the reflective layer has been destroyed. For that I haven´t found a solution yet.
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #18 –
Is it true that CDs/DVDs should be cleaned in radial direction (because a CD drive's error correction could better cope with radial scratches than with other ones and fine scratches would result unavoidably from the use of a cleaning cloth)?
This is HA. Not the Jerry Springer Show.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #19 –
From my experience, often when I want to rip my CD (I normally use EAC) with some smudges on it (dust, dirt, whatever), EAC goes into retry mode. When I carefully clean that CD, the symptoms disappears, EAC rips fine. However, if I play the same CD (before cleaning) on a regular CD player, it plays with no problems. So I think the CD players (not computer based) are designed not to be too fidgety about the read errors and interpolate on a fly. Hence unreliable read. Which is no big deal, of course. Though these are bits (1's and 0's) it is quite different from reading the computer data file where every bit most be read exactly, no guesses. In this case (CD with some recorded music), ultimately we don't read the data, we listen music, and so a few incorrect bits won't screw things up.  Or will they? I don't know. One may speculate that with too many of such interpolations, we might hear the difference. In any case, that's the only mechanism I can think of, but I won't outright reject the possibility that CD with lots of smudges (or some other stuff which can be removed by some CD cleaner) , even still playable, with no stuttering, may sound better (or make be "different" instead of "better") after cleaning it.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #20 –
Optical computer drives all perform error correction* on the fly regardless of the software or ripping mode, just like standalone CD  players.  If you had read the dirty disc in burst mode and listened, you might not have noticed the difference.  This isn't to say that your CD player and your optical computer drive will do equally as well when attempting to read a dirty disc, just like two different optical drives.

(*) I initially said interpolate, though I had forgotten that there are some drives that do not interpolate (at least enough for dBpoweramp to provide the option to interpolate in their place).  Does anyone know what the output from these drives look like when there are errors which other drives would have interpolated?

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Robertina on
Is it true that CDs/DVDs should be cleaned in radial direction (because a CD drive's error correction could better cope with radial scratches than with other ones and fine scratches would result unavoidably from the use of a cleaning cloth)?

Yes, that is correct.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #22 –
You know how I clean the read side of a CD or DVD?

First, I take a simple foldable napkin, like the ones you get at fast food restaurants.  I crinkle it up into a ball and then straighten it out.  Do this about 4 or 5 times.  This makes it as soft and non-abrasive as tissue paper or the lens cleaner paper for camera lenses.

Then, I "breathe" on the read side of the CD/DVD so that a thin layer of humid fog develops.  I buff it with that softened napkin.

Works like a charm.  Removes all fingerprints and particles, while almost never scratching the surface.  The disc's read side comes out looking really shiny and glossy.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: rohangc on
Cavaille, I hope you are just kidding. Do you seriously wash optical media with soap and water? Bizarre 


Nothing bizarre at all about washing optical discs with soap and water.

They tolerate it well (unless they are CD-Rs with paper labels) and its a great way to get fingerprints and gook off of them.

I'd say that about half the rental DVDs we receive get this treatment, and it can make a huge difference.

Unfortunately, washing does very little for scratched discs.

Affect sound quality on CD's by cleaning?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: WonderSlug on
First, I take a simple foldable napkin, like the ones you get at fast food restaurants.  I crinkle it up into a ball and then straighten it out.  Do this about 4 or 5 times.  This makes it as soft and non-abrasive as tissue paper or the lens cleaner paper for camera lenses.

Then, I "breathe" on the read side of the CD/DVD so that a thin layer of humid fog develops.  I buff it with that softened napkin.


I do the bretahing thing as well, but I use my soft Tshirt to do the rubbin'. I might upgrade that to the patented microfiber cloth 30,000 [/sarcasm] that I got with my new glasses.

I find that reading problems are rarely caused by a dusty or fingerprinted disc, and more likely by the reader, which may be broken in subtle ways (such as that crappy samsung portable dvd rewriter I got with the evil hydra USB cable it "required" for proper power).

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger link=msg=0 date=
Nothing bizarre at all about washing optical discs with soap and water.


I probably wouldn't have believed it if it hadn't come from you -- regardless of argument from authority