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Topic: Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance (Read 21355 times) previous topic - next topic
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Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

I currently own Beyerdynamic's DT880 32 ohm headphones and like them very much except for one thing: sibilance. This sibilance is primarily present in vocals ('sss' 'zzz' sounds) and occasionally the high frequency sounds of certain instruments. Using foobar2000's EQ I have found that reducing the 7kHz and 10kHz values by around 8dB minimizes the sibilance, but as a result makes the treble range sound a bit wonky. I also own the DT770 Pro 80ohm and there is no sibilance problem with these headphones. As a result of the sibilance I find it very fatiguing to listen to the DT880s while playing rock/pop music. They are great for classical though because vocals are not present.

I have read in numerous threads on head-fi that the higher impedance version (600 ohm) of the DT880 has a "smoother" treble. I'm somewhat skeptical of this because many of the people are using the headphones with amps of all kinds that may be coloring the sound. There is also a post by a Beyerdynamic rep that confirms there may indeed be a difference in sound depending on the impedance: "Headphone systems or drivers with lower impedances use slightly heavier wire for the coil and are therefor not moving as rapid and exact as the higher impedance systems. Conclusion: lower impedances mean slightly heavier membrane + coil --> slightly more mass --> slightly slower to move causing headphones with higher impedances to sound slightly more detailed."

Has anyone here compared Beyerdynamics higher impedance 'Premium' line (DT770, DT880, DT990) headphones with their low impedance counterparts? Do you think it would be worth buying a 600ohm DT880 to see if the sibilance problem is solved with a greater impedance design?

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Bargain Bin on
I currently own Beyerdynamic's DT880 32 ohm headphones and like them very much except for one thing: sibilance. This sibilance is primarily present in vocals ('sss' 'zzz' sounds) and occasionally the high frequency sounds of certain instruments. Using foobar2000's EQ I have found that reducing the 7kHz and 10kHz values by around 8dB minimizes the sibilance, but as a result makes the treble range sound a bit wonky.


If you use a parametric EQ you'll be able to localize the correction better (I assume there are such plugins for foobar2000).

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #2 –
I had the 2005 model (current version) DT880 with 250 ohms for a while and I purchased the 600 ohm version in the hope that there would be a sonic difference.  I cannot say with any confidence that I heard any difference that could not be more easily explained by a volume difference since volume matched testing was very difficult.

IMHO if there was an actual sonic difference between the various impedance versions of the DT770,DT880,and DT990 Beyer would have taken the stance of having 9 different models (e.g. 870,880,890) as headphone companies are quite good as making small sonic changes and making large claims about the differences.

Beyond that, I don't think Beyer has ever explicitly claimed there is any sonic difference between the 32,250, and 600 ohm models.  The whole point about the lighter voicecoil is theoretical.

Apparently the 2003 DT880 is a better fix.  It has peaks, but they are wider and can be addressed with some damping foam rings.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #3 –
@Bargain Bin:

You don't mention what you are using to drive the headphones. When driving low impedance headphones you need a source whose impedance is also low, otherwise the frequency response could be affected. If there is a resonance in the headphones at 7 to 10 kHz then that combined with a high source impedance could give you a peak in frequency response.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #4 –
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Do you think it would be worth buying a 600ohm DT880
Only if you can return them!!!! 

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There is also a post by a Beyerdynamic rep that confirms there may indeed be a difference in sound depending on the impedance: "Headphone systems or drivers with lower impedances use slightly heavier wire for the coil..."
  I wonder if the  "rep" knows what he's talking about...  It's probably true that lower impedance versions use thicker wire, but I would have also guessed that higher impedance means more "turns" (more wire).

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #5 –
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If you use a parametric EQ you'll be able to localize the correction better (I assume there are such plugins for foobar2000).

Thanks I'll check that out.

@odigg:
Good comparison/advice. Did you ever find that the DT880 was too sibilant?

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You don't mention what you are using to drive the headphones.

I use a 4th gen iPod-Photo and my computer's front panel headphone out. My sound card is an on-board Realtek ALC1200 chip (ASUS P5Q PRO motherboard).

@DVDdoug:
Yeah, I'm not really sure what he means as well. The part of the post that interests me is the statement that higher impedance allows more "rapid and exact" driver movement. I was wondering if this performance difference would translate into an audible reduction in sibilance.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #6 –
Another question:

Beyerdynamic states in the DT880 32ohm product description: "DT 880 Premium now available in 32 ohm for all applications including MP3 players." If they are able to make the DT880 32ohm work well in "all applications including MP3 players" why do they offer the higher ohm versions at all? I assume that home/pro-level equipment can drive headphones that can be driven by an iPod (is this correct?). I have read that the 250ohm and 600ohm versions are geared specifically to home amplifiers/pro equipment. If there is no sonic advantage to using these high impedance versions, what advantages do they present? Power savings?

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Bargain Bin on
@DVDdoug:
Yeah, I'm not really sure what he means as well. The part of the post that interests me is the statement that higher impedance allows more "rapid and exact" driver movement. I was wondering if this performance difference would translate into an audible reduction in sibilance.


No, there is just an unhealthy fixation about a lot of things in audio fanboy communities, one is impedance. There is an easy solution to all impedance related problems: low impedance output stages, quite trivial to build. For example, the worst impedance related problem you can get with a 4th gen iPod and 32 ohm headphones is a very slight bass roll-off, but no sibilance as what you describe. The quoted explanation why high impedance headphones would sound more detailed is plain fantasy. There is no room for more or less detail with headphones of different impedance as long as they have identical impulse and frequency response. And that seems to be the only thing happening here. You have got two pairs of phones with differing frequency response. Exchanging the DT880 with a pair of equal impedance has the same probability to solve your 7-10kHz issue as exchanging it with a higher impedance pair.

The quote from a Beyerdynamic sales rep refers to their specific models. It cannot be generalized to the relation of impedance to sound features. When you want a specific sound, look for frequency and impulse response, not impedance. The only thing you need to check about impedance is 1. when the impedance is very high (>~200 ohm), has your amp enough power to deliver the intended listening volume? 2. When the impedance is very low (<~32 ohm), is your source is properly built == has near zero output impedance? As said, the 4th gen iPod should be fine except for a possible very slight bass roll-off.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #8 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
No, there is just an unhealthy fixation about a lot of things in audio fanboy communities, one is impedance.


That's true

Quote
For example, the worst impedance related problem you can get with a 4th gen iPod and 32 ohm headphones is a very slight bass roll-off, but no sibilance as what you describe.


That might be true but, on somewhat of a tangent: If I use RMAA to measure the output of my EMU 0202 USB driving my AKG K701s (around 60Ohm), there is a gentle peak in the high frequencies, starting at 7kHz and peaking at around 19kHz and +.9dB or so (it's around +.25dB at 10kHz though). I don't think I ever noticed it naturally, but it's the most prominent feature in the graphs. If the Beyerdynamics have a wiggly impedance curve then maybe there's some sort of audible effect.

But either way I'd go for the parametric EQ.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #9 –
Quote from: aclo on
That might be true but, on somewhat of a tangent: If I use RMAA to measure the output of my EMU 0202 USB driving my AKG K701s (around 60Ohm), there is a gentle peak in the high frequencies, starting at 7kHz and peaking at around 19kHz and +.9dB or so (it's around +.25dB at 10kHz though).


This kind of measurement is often misinterpreted. It just shows how much energy is lost in the driver at what frequency. That often correlates, but may not be proportional, to actually delivered sound pressure levels. Especially the extend of such a deviation cannot be determined without actually measuring sound pressure directly.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #10 –
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There is no room for more or less detail with headphones of different impedance as long as they have identical impulse and frequency response.

Yes, I agree with your post. I have seen frequency response graphs that compare the 32ohm and 250ohm versions of the DT880 (see here via headphone.com), but I have read that FR graphs from this source may not be reliable. However, the graphs provided do show that the 32ohm version has a higher value in the 7-10kHz range. I have not yet found any FR graphs for the 600ohm version of the DT880.
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If I use RMAA to measure

Does RMAA mean "Right Mark Audio Analyzer"?
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If the Beyerdynamics have a wiggly impedance curve then maybe there's some sort of audible effect.

Do you (or anyone else) know of any websites that list reliable FR graphs for headphones? I'll definitely try out a parametric EQ.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Bargain Bin on
I have seen frequency response graphs that compare the 32ohm and 250ohm versions of the DT880 (see here via headphone.com), but I have read that FR graphs from this source may not be reliable. However, the graphs provided do show that the 32ohm version has a higher value in the 7-10kHz range. I have not yet found any FR graphs for the 600ohm version of the DT880.


The impedance differences are quite large. So the headphones must be built differently (either physically or at least electronically) and so audible differences are possible. You just cannot generalize the results just as a function of impedance. In this case, though, if the measurements are correct, the differences should be very clearly audible. It's over 3 db.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #12 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
Quote from: aclo on
That might be true but, on somewhat of a tangent: If I use RMAA to measure the output of my EMU 0202 USB driving my AKG K701s (around 60Ohm), there is a gentle peak in the high frequencies, starting at 7kHz and peaking at around 19kHz and +.9dB or so (it's around +.25dB at 10kHz though).


This kind of measurement is often misinterpreted. It just shows how much energy is lost in the driver at what frequency. That often correlates, but may not be proportional, to actually delivered sound pressure levels. Especially the extend of such a deviation cannot be determined without actually measuring sound pressure directly.


That's true, but I have no way of measuring how much is lost due to impedance changes with frequency versus how much actually contributes to SPL. And from remembering graphs of the K701s impedance curve, it does indeed tilt up at some point above 10kHz or so (but I don't remember by how much). I just have no means of measuring the actual SPL (plus, <1dB change isn't something I'd personally ever notice).

But you're right overall.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Bargain Bin on
Quote
There is no room for more or less detail with headphones of different impedance as long as they have identical impulse and frequency response.

Yes, I agree with your post. I have seen frequency response graphs that compare the 32ohm and 250ohm versions of the DT880 (see here via headphone.com), but I have read that FR graphs from this source may not be reliable. However, the graphs provided do show that the 32ohm version has a higher value in the 7-10kHz range. I have not yet found any FR graphs for the 600ohm version of the DT880.
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I am not sure I'd trust those graphs that much.

Quote
If I use RMAA to measure

Does RMAA mean "Right Mark Audio Analyzer"?


Yes. But as was pointed out, what is being measured is the output of the amplifier. To take an extreme example, if a speaker with crossovers was being driven, you could see a peak which did not correspond to any peak in produced sound but was instead energy absorbed by the crossovers. So maybe not such a reliable guide for EQing headphones/speakers.

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Quote
If the Beyerdynamics have a wiggly impedance curve then maybe there's some sort of audible effect.

Do you (or anyone else) know of any websites that list reliable FR graphs for headphones? I'll definitely try out a parametric EQ.


FR for headphones is hard to interpret. Give the parametric EQ a shot (although it's easy to just spend your time adjusting things and never being happy!).

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #15 –
Bargain Bin - I found the DT880 to have some peaks in the highs and it did have a sort of "extra pizazz" in the highs.  Keep in mind that I've found I'm more sensitive to hearing sibilance when the peak is at 3khz, not above that.  Ultimately I sold it because of issues I had with midbass.  So you are aware, B&H sells the 600 ohm versions and accept returns without a fuss.

Just so you know, I did "sense" a *slightly* smoother treble with the 600 ohm version.  However, this was after I had read a number of comments about the 600 ohm version having a smoother treble so my evaluation had a good chance of being influenced.  Beyond that, I could not volume match easily and I found in an A/B that the quieter one (even if the volume difference was barely audible) always sounded smoother.

Plenty of people have complained about sibilance with the 250 ohm version.  That's one of the major complaints about it.

As for why the 32, 250, and 600 ohms, it's probably designed (as you said) to deal with the different impedance of outputs.  Many speaker amps, pro audio amps, etc have a very high output impedance.  This can audibly and measurably change the FR of even the 250 ohm Beyer.  The 600 ohm version can probably be plugged into most anything without issue.

I wouldn't rely on Headroom's measurements for much.  There has been some major variation in FR graphs when they've remeasured headphones.  There are plenty of reasons why, but the bottom line is that their FR graphs showing a difference between the 32 and 250 ohm version doesn't equate to an actual difference.  Also, the balanced DT880 has a different FR than the regular DT880 but balancing isn't supposed to change FR!

I looked at the 32 ohm impedance graph and it looks fairly flat.  You may want to verify a flat FR at the headphone jack for yourself though using RMAA (Rightmark Audio Analyzer)and your own DT880.  It's fairly easy if you have a y-splitter and a male to male 3.5mm cable.

Somebody (not here, on other websites) is going to tell you the problem is that you don't have an expensive amp.  Don't believe it

Finally, here's a little bit of trivia if you don't know it.  Beyer uses the same driver in the DT770,DT880, and DT990.  They apparently used the same driver in the 2003 DT880.  The sonic differences between models (of the same impedance) come from the design of the earcup and dampning on the driver.

And so from that I built my logic that if there was any major audible difference between the different impedance models Beyer would have gladly created a "new" model and marketed it as such.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #16 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
This kind of measurement is often misinterpreted. It just shows how much energy is lost in the driver at what frequency. That often correlates, but may not be proportional, to actually delivered sound pressure levels. Especially the extend of such a deviation cannot be determined without actually measuring sound pressure directly.


This statement is a great revelation to me.  It helps me make sense of something I've been investigating regarding all the IEMs with massive variations in their impedance over the FR range.  Measured differences at the headphone jack are not necessarily proportionate to audible differences...that's really clears something up for me.  That never even occurred to me before and it's making clear some of my experiences with IEMs

Man, I love HA

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #17 –
Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: rpp3po on
This kind of measurement is often misinterpreted. It just shows how much energy is lost in the driver at what frequency. That often correlates, but may not be proportional, to actually delivered sound pressure levels. Especially the extend of such a deviation cannot be determined without actually measuring sound pressure directly.


This statement is a great revelation to me.  It helps me make sense of something I've been investigating regarding all the IEMs with massive variations in their impedance over the FR range.  Measured differences at the headphone jack are not necessarily proportionate to audible differences...that's really clears something up for me.  That never even occurred to me before and it's making clear some of my experiences with IEMs

Man, I love HA


Indeed, HA is a bastion for a lot of good thought. Sometimes, it goes too far though with the skeptic approach, but overall, it is a great place to keep one's feet before trudging off to places like Headfi.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #18 –
Quote
Many speaker amps, pro audio amps, etc have a very high output impedance. This can audibly and measurably change the FR of even the 250 ohm Beyer. The 600 ohm version can probably be plugged into most anything without issue.

Yeah, I've read some more headphone/amp threads here and can now understand why they would offer the different levels of impedance. I find it interesting that the 'A1 Headphone Amp' Beyer offers has a '100 Ω headphone output' whereas most amps aim for a rating of 0Ω.
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Somebody (not here, on other websites) is going to tell you the problem is that you don't have an expensive amp. Don't believe it 

Haha, in the past I had a desktop headphone amp that I sold because I found no audible difference vs my computer's headphone jack. I'm now of the mind that if it ain't broke (no voltage based clipping/distortion/etc.) don't fix it.
Quote
Indeed, HA is a bastion for a lot of good thought. Sometimes, it goes too far though with the skeptic approach, but overall, it is a great place to keep one's feet before trudging off to places like Headfi.

Fully agree. I have posted topics similar to this one in that forum and have had hardly any sensible or helpful responses at all.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #19 –
I think there's more to that 100 ohm output impedance than meets the eye.  I think Beyer designed that amp specifically to be used with their "Headzone" system and the 250ohm DT880.  The 250 ohm DT880 has a fairly flat impedance so there probably (I have not measured it) is no major change in the FR.  This is all speculation on my part so don't assume I know what I'm talking about

About EQing the 32 ohm version - You might boost 3khz when you decrease 5khz and 7khz.  This might compensate for any strangeness you hear.  You could also try boosting the lower bass (~50hz in the foobar EQ) to see if that psychoacoustically quiets down the treble a bit. 

I would say the 600 ohm version needs an amp.  It just doesn't get very loud out an onboard sound solution, especially with classical music.

Sorry I can't be of more help.  I personally prefer the Foobar EQ to a Parametric EQ because it's easy to use.  But, as has been pointed out already, a parametric EQ gives your FAR more flexibility.  You'll need to get a plugin for Foobar that allows you to use VSTs.  As far as VSTs parametric EQs you can use,  I like ElectriQ.  Some people like NyquistEQ.  ElectriQ does have a free version.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #20 –
Quote from: odigg on
I think there's more to that 100 ohm output impedance than meets the eye.  I think Beyer designed that amp specifically to be used with their "Headzone" system and the 250ohm DT880.  The 250 ohm DT880 has a fairly flat impedance so there probably (I have not measured it) is no major change in the FR.  This is all speculation on my part so don't assume I know what I'm talking about

Iirc all Beyerdynamic headphones are designed for 120 Ohm output impedance, which used to be (or even still is) the DIN norm for headphone sockets.

(So the audiophools who believe integrated amps' sockets are the devil are actually driving them wrong, not that it makes much of a difference (at least I didn't notice anything obvious with both DT-880 and K-701))

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #21 –
In my opinion it is quite an antiquated choice to still design for 120 ohm. The reasons for 120 ohm output impedance was solely cheapness. A headphone jack could be built by just connecting the speaker output through resistors. Separate headphone output stages were too expensive for the masses back then, but cheap today. There is not a single advantage of high output impedance. And it is also not easier to design a headphone around the roll-off caused by a >0 output impedance. I guess if the 120 ohm story is really still true, then it's just their market niche. Kind of like Porsche using air-cooling for the 911 up until 1998, when they had to decide wether they wanted to accept the absolute performance limitations of that principle or just bite the bullet  and move on with their technology.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #22 –
I have owned the 250Ω version which I sold when moving to South Korea and currently own the 600Ω. The latter is thicker in the bottom end - no contest. But, I also had the 2003 version and the 600Ω is the 2005 version which I hear is 'bassier'.

The 600Ω gets very loud for me even from an iPod, but it lacks real weight till I use a real amp. Both are excellent headphones. I'd like to hear the 32Ω version someday.

Does anyone know if the 600Ω has extra resistors inside? I bought mine second hand re-cabled by a three-thumbed ogre - the stress reliefs broke and my headphones are in the shoppe. The person who is recabling them found the resistors and he is confused too. I didn't open up the 2003 version 250Ω nor have I seen the insides of the 600Ω. If mine are more bassy because of mods... argggg - not happy about that.

Whatever the case, I love the 880 more than any other headphone.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #23 –
The 2003 and 2005 DT880 use a different earcup design and *maybe* differing dampening (I don't know).  The increase in bass is from this and exists across all the 2005 DT880 models (32,250, and 600) ohms in comparison to the 2003 model.

From pictures that I've seen the 600 ohm model has a diode, not a resistor, soldered to the driver.  Ask whomever is fixing it to send you a picture so we can look at it.

Beyerdynamic Headphones and impedance

Reply #24 –
Quote from: odigg on
The 2003 and 2005 DT880 use a different earcup design and *maybe* differing dampening (I don't know).  The increase in bass is from this and exists across all the 2005 DT880 models (32,250, and 600) ohms in comparison to the 2003 model.

From pictures that I've seen the 600 ohm model has a diode, not a resistor, soldered to the driver.  Ask whomever is fixing it to send you a picture so we can look at it.


Okay, then must be okay. I'll admit though that they 600? seems to be bassier than the same 2005 250? model which I demoed recently. Both, however, are fuller sounding than my old 2003 model and I love each the same. As for driving power, I can tell you without a doubt that probably my most difficult to drive headphones, the DJ1Pro, are smashingly deep out of my home amp and not so smashingly deep out of any battery amp I have. It is as if the bottom of the driver jumps up into the ear, says 'here I am', wrestles with the eardrum and slaps you on the upper side of the head before disappearing again as the note, sustained for what seemed eternity, goes back down the hole.