TOS 9 also needs a rethink. In the UK and many other countries, I believe, it is a breach of copyright to make a copy of copyrighted material without the explicit permission of the copyright holder.
TOS2 fills that hole nicely.
You say "TOS2 fills that hole nicely." I think that may be a good example of the TOS being vague or unclear. I always interpreted TOS2 as intended to prevent verbal abuse, swearing, name calling etc. It never occured to me that it had any relationship to TOS8.
"Unauthorised duplication........ is a violation of applicable laws".
Dutch law allows it and we obviously can't expect the TOS to cover the legalities in every country
Perhaps a little amendment pointing out that local laws may differ need to be respected is all that's needed.
we have a situation where HA is inviting large numbers of people to break its own TOS.
TOS 9 could do with a bit of clarification - it doesn't explicitly cover posts requesting help with tag clean-up of pirate rips, or establishing if they were from the original source rather than a transcode, etc.
morons who can't figure out what to do with their pirated data are allowed to inquire.
TOS9 is supposed to be enforced as it was literally written. So morons who can't figure out what to do with their pirated data are allowed to inquire. This doesn't mean that you should feel obliged to help them, nor does it mean that you can't suggest that they go about getting their stuff legally provided that doing so doesn't violate some other rule such as TOS2 or TOS5. It's probably worth mentioning that both of these rules (2 and 5) are typically enforced with great leniency.
I'll put it this way: TOS2 basically can be interpreted to give us mods carte blanche if we need it.
HA's "against piracy, but not in a fanatical way"
HA is not against piracy per se, just covering the legal ass with TOS#9.
Perhaps not enough : According to the Stemra
What about fair use
Fair use: In de Verenigde Staten staat de fair use doctrine toe kopieën te maken van een beperkt deel van eigendomsrechtelijk werk, dat wil zeggen voor bepaalde doeleinden, zoals onderwijs, kritieken en hekelingen. Ook is het in het algemeen toegestaan om voor eigen gebruik kopieën te maken van werken die men in het bezit heeft, mits die niet verder verspreid worden. Vanwege het territorialiteitsbeginsel heeft deze regeling echter geen enkele rechtskracht in Europa.
I think we either need to be legal, or moral, or nothing. I assume it's the first, though personally I'd prefer the second!
btw, it's correct that in the UK, almost all copying is technically illegal. The law is long overdue an update, and this is accepted, so it's ignored. This is a poor situation.
the member needs to act within the laws of his or her own country
There are moral implications if we advise a user to break their governing laws.
Quote from: 2Bdecided on 02 November, 2009, 05:31:00 AMI think we either need to be legal, or moral, or nothing. I assume it's the first, though personally I'd prefer the second!Given the global coverage of this forum I think a moral stance is the more sensible.
In its descriptive use, morals are arbitrarily and subjectively created by society, philosophy, religion, and/or individual conscience.
The arbitrariness of morality stems from the observation that actions that may be deemed moral in one culture in time may not be classified as such in others or in a different time.
The subjectiveness of morality is shown by the observation that actions or beliefs which by themselves do not seem to cause overt harm may be considered immoral, e.g. marrying someone of the same or opposite gender, being an atheist or a theist, etc.
While for the most part immoral acts are classified as such because they cause clear harm, this is not by any means an all encompassing criterion; it's possible that many moral beliefs are due to prejudice, ignorance or even hatred.
[...] known as moral skepticism, in which the unchanging existence of a rigid, universal, objective moral "truth" is rejected.
In its third usage, 'morality' is synonymous with ethics. [...] Ethics seeks to address questions such as how a moral outcome can be achieved in a specific situation ...
TOS#2:"Messages which are found to be abusive, obscene, vulgar, hateful, slanderous, threatening, or which are otherwise in violation of any laws, deemed as such by the Hydrogenaudio staff, and at their sole discretion, will be removed."
[so what's moral?]