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Topic: Best way to rip and archive FLAC (Read 11329 times) previous topic - next topic
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Best way to rip and archive FLAC

I was hoping to get a little bit of Member help on setting up a lossless music archiving schema.  I know that Lee Koo wrote a great answer to a similar question back in 2005 but obviously technology has changed.  Any help is much appreciated!

My set-up
- New Windows XP machine
- About 700 CDs...mostly excellent to mint condition.
- No portable purchased or selected yet.

My needs: 
General: I want to archive my CDs to make an exact replica of the CD for playing on my computer, for archiving, and potentially for using in some sort of home-systems.  But for the time being, I want to put my CDs away.  I also don't want to have to do this again!

Portable: I do want to move these files to a portable device.  I would love to go to an iPod but know that that limits my choices.  I'm thinking that I will probably look to a program that can batch convert (I think that is the right term) on the fly to a low-grade mp3 for listening on head-phones/portable.

Album Art: I want it.  I think I would prefer HighDef although I don't really know the difference.

Tags:  Most definitely.

Quality:  Perfect....size doesn't matter....HD space is cheap!

Where I am now:
- I'm almost 100% sure I will go with FLAC and then batch convert to mp3 for an ipod.  I don't want two copies of the files so I'd like to let them convert as I DL to the ipod.  Is that possible?
- I want perfect copies and as such I think I want to employ AccurateRip.
- I don't know what Ripper/Encoder to use.  I DL EAC but it looks daunting....especially for album art.  I'm torn between Foobar, EAC, DBPoweramp and MediaMonkey.  This is my biggest question and I really don't know which way to go.  I also keep hearing about certain rippers (EAC) being more accurate.  I don’t understand that. If it is Lossless, isn't it already perfect?  Something can't be "more perfect" can it?  Clearly, I'm missing something.  I don't mind paying some money for a program as long as it is secure/safe.  I'm not a big fan of making purchases online that aren't to a "name-brand" site but I'll trust your advice on what is legit.
- Do I need Cue sheets?
- Since I want them to be exact replicas, I want to keep the gaps intact...like with Pink Floyd's "The Wall".  How do I set that up.
- I also don't know what type of CD Drive is in my computer so I need a ripper that auto-detects.

Thanks for all of your help!

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #1 –
About ripping accuracy: The problem with CDs is that they were designed with only moderate error correction in mind, because there was a fall-back strategy of interpolating missing data, or substituting silence. In casual listening this is generally adequate.

If you rip to a file then there is the possibility that the file will be permanently marred with these inaccurate data points, even if the CD is brand-new and unscratched. This is why a "secure" ripper takes extra steps to ensure accuracy.

In verifying the accuracy of a rup, your first defence is AccurateRip. If you get a match to the database then you are assured of good data. Failing this the various "secure" modes of EAC or dBpoweramp are the next best verification.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #2 –
I use:

ripping: dbpoweramp reference to flac -8
tagging: musicbrainz picard w/ amazon art and musicbrainz genre plugins
playback/management/ipod sync: mediamonkey gold (requires latest beta version for ipod 3.x/itunes 9.x support)

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #3 –
I don't want two copies of the files so I'd like to let them convert as I DL to the ipod.  Is that possible?
I can do it on Windows with foobar2000 + foo_dop. I'm sure many more softwares can do it.

I don't know what Ripper/Encoder to use. 
A secure one with log file (in order to check later if you hear something suspicious with your rip). EAC has an excellent reputation ; I switched to dBPowerAmp (much faster in my case, and also less buggy on my system) which isn't free. But this was by far my best investment since I bought my first computer. On Mac OS system XLD seems to be a pretty nice choice too.

Do I need Cue sheets?
I don't think so. I generated cuesheet for one purpose: keeping some extra-infos like pre-emphasis and indexes. It's a small bonus but nothing important.

Since I want them to be exact replicas, I want to keep the gaps intact...like with Pink Floyd's "The Wall".  How do I set that up.
You don't have to worry about it. Most ripper if not all can do it without any additional setting. As long as you rip into a lossless format no extra-gap will be added.

I also don't know what type of CD Drive is in my computer so I need a ripper that auto-detects.
I don't really understand this point.
Wavpack Hybrid -c4hx6

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #4 –
Quote from: pedrot99 on
- I also don't know what type of CD Drive is in my computer so I need a ripper that auto-detects.


I used EAC and foobar2000 for my ripping/encoding for many years.  I've since moved to dbpoweramp.  dbpoweramp makes the process much simpler - one program to rip, tag, encode, and download artwork in one step!!  Especially with a project of 700 CDs, you'll appreciate the convenience. 

I use Media Monkey to do any post-ripping management of my library.  This includes tweaking of tags, downloading missing artwork, and moving tracks/albums around.

Both EAC and dbpoweramp will "auto-detect" your CD drive and set things like caching, read offset, and C2 error correction.  The key is you have to insert a "key" disc.  Basically, you keep putting discs from your collection in until one is recognized.  There used to be a list of discs for EAC.  I don't know how current that list is and I don't know if there is a list for dbPowerAmp.  My original pressing of Sgt. Pepper's from The Beatles always did the trick for me.

Regarding the multiple copy issue - you said yourself that disc space is cheap.  Why have the lossless files transcode to mp3 on the fly?  It's pretty easy to maintain 2 copies of a music library - one lossless and one lossy.  Doing a transode on the fly will only slow down the loading of your portable media player.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #5 –
Quote from: guruboolez on
Do I need Cue sheets?
I don't think so. I generated cuesheet for one purpose: keeping some extra-infos like pre-emphasis and indexes. It's a small bonus but nothing important.

They are (somewhat) important for backup purposes: without them, he won't be able to match a burned disc against databases such as MusicBrainz.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #6 –
Unless there is a gap (HTOA) before the first track there is absolutely no reason why one would need a cue sheet to get information from a database.  In the case where there is a small gap beyond 2 seconds, I still don't think I've ever had a problem getting tag information from a database.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #7 –
Without track one pregap info (incl. silence) it can be difficult to get AccurateRip verification of files that have already been ripped, or of a burned copy.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #8 –
Quote from: maggior on
Regarding the multiple copy issue - you said yourself that disc space is cheap.  Why have the lossless files transcode to mp3 on the fly?  It's pretty easy to maintain 2 copies of a music library - one lossless and one lossy.  Doing a transode on the fly will only slow down the loading of your portable media player.


easy is relative

I find it 'easier' to spend more time waiting to load my player vs more time + effort (and wasted space, regardless of how cheap) trying to maintain sync between a lossy/lossless dual library.

all I have to do is click (to sync) and wait, nothing to worry about and only 1 library to maintain.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #9 –
Suggestions:
- EAC or dbPowerAmp. I personally use EAC as it's still "the standard" and many utilities understand it's .log files/etc. There are many guides out there for setting it up. Just follow a guide, then use a couple log checkers (Google it) to validate your setting look good for perfect rips.

- Tagging: Personally I use Foobar2000. However, I also use metaflac --import-picture-from= from the command line. This isn't very user friendly, so I can't comment much on this area in that respect.

- FLAC & CUE: I prefer FLAC -8. I prefer to rip to tracks & create a .CUE. However, if your audio hardware/software understands embedded CUE sheets, it may be better for your purposes to rip to a single file FLAC+embedded .CUE (this gives you tracks with accurate indexes). No matter what, I suggest saving off the .CUE and .LOG files. They don't eat up any relevant space and can be very useful for various softwares & in the future if you want to re-examine your rips.

Hope that helps

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #10 –
You may want to look at J. River Media Center. A paid app, but does all you ask from one easy interface.

http://www.jrmediacenter.com/

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #11 –
Quote from: pedrot99 on
- I'm almost 100% sure I will go with FLAC and then batch convert to mp3
If it's only a matter or space nothing can beat APE in terms of maximal compression but FLAC is much more well known (open source).
Quote from: pedrot99 on
- I want perfect copies and as such I think I want to employ AccurateRip.
There are more and more ways to use the AR database to compare: Until know I was only aware of EAC and DBPowerAmp but recently I discovered CueTools and the foobar2000 verify plugin.
Quote from: pedrot99 on
- I don't know what Ripper/Encoder to use.  I DL EAC but it looks daunting....especially for album art.  I'm torn between Foobar, EAC, DBPoweramp and MediaMonkey.
Certainly EAC has a strong reputation for accurate reading AND burning. I cannot speak about DBPowerAmp (because I did not want to pay for it) but if I'm not wrong EAC is the only software able to burn e.g. write with a correct offset. Though it's of no practical matter concerning the sound quality if you want to have a perfect 1:1 CD copy it does matter. On the other hand it's a fact that the correct setup of EAC needs some time and special knowledge since there may be big differences between various drive hardwares (and firmwares). I have spent a lot of time to understand all what it takes to achieve most of what you want to do, the exception being that I don't want to compromise with lossy stuff and I stick to lossless quality.   
My present way to go:
Ripping: EAC
Automating Ripping/Writing Process: AutoFLAC
Tagging: mp3tag (great)
Listening/Converting/Verifying/Comparing: foobar2000
Cue sheet stuff/Comparing/Converting(Offset Correction!): CueTools
Burning: EAC (or Burrrn as alternative if write offset does not matter)
Sometimes (not really necessary anymore): FLACFrontend or Monkey's Audio or WinLame
Maybe: Acoustica MP3 CD Burner if I want to have a mp3 CD or DVD (for my daughter since I stick to my rule...    )
Quote from: pedrot99 on
- Do I need Cue sheets?
If I am not wrong (greynol please correct me if necessary...    ) the cue sheet information is not needed concerning the audio quality. It's a must to have it if you want to keep the original index information though this will only have a visual effect on your player. Also it comes very handy to pass on quickly CD-text information to a burning software like EAC or Burrrn. That is why I always create and backup a cue sheet too. Now concerning the AR database comparison: I have been doing many tests these last days since I discovered the foobar2000 plugin and the new CueTool... My present conclusion is that the cue sheet is not needed at all to have this verification against the AR database done. Sometimes it even gives no result (= not in database) by using the cue sheet whereas there's a result by using the bunch of single flac files (folder) instead. The pregap before the first track (HTOA) is of no concern for me because I never had a CD with one until now... so I think it's not really important if 1 CD out of 300 has it...
Quote from: pedrot99 on
- Since I want them to be exact replicas, I want to keep the gaps intact...like with Pink Floyd's "The Wall".  How do I set that up.
You will have to think about choosing single or multy track images (flac files) but either way if you keep the tracks in the initial order the gaps will remain where there were since finally you are ripping bits and the reader/writer does not see the difference if the bit is silence or not...
Quote from: pedrot99 on
- I also don't know what type of CD Drive is in my computer so I need a ripper that auto-detects.
EAC or DBPowerAmp will help you in this process (as has been described in a former post) You could also do it manually by using a software to detect the drive hardware / firmware and locate it in one of the several driver offset databases available or by burning a test CD and read it again (it's the best and only real proof by the way!).
Hope this helps   

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #13 –
Quote
If it's only a matter or space nothing can beat APE in terms of maximal compression but FLAC is much more well known (open source).


Both OptimFROG and LA can.
But they (and Monkey's too) are too slow to decode. So they are bad for "batch convert to mp3".

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #14 –
Quote from: lvqcl on
Both OptimFROG and LA can.
But they (and Monkey's too) are too slow to decode. So they are bad for "batch convert to mp3".
Yes, thank you for this correct statement. (I could not find a way to correct/edit mine above.) 

Here a good link for the overview in this jungle...    http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...less_comparison

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #15 –
Quote from: NuSkooler on
- EAC or dbPowerAmp. I personally use EAC as it's still "the standard" and many utilities understand it's .log files/etc. There are many guides out there for setting it up. Just follow a guide, then use a couple log checkers (Google it) to validate your setting look good for perfect rips.


There are a lot of EAC guides out there but most of them contain outdated and incorrect information. This is the guide to use.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #16 –
Quote from: greynol on
Unless there is a gap (HTOA) before the first track there is absolutely no reason why one would need a cue sheet to get information from a database.  In the case where there is a small gap beyond 2 seconds, I still don't think I've ever had a problem getting tag information from a database.

If the CD starts with more than the standard 150 frames (even by just one frame), it completely changes MusicBrainz's DiscID, which is desirable behavior. The much less precise FreeDB would be more forgiving, since it uses rounded down offsets expressed in seconds (hence all the collisions). And while there are few discs with "hidden first tracks", there are many that start beyond the first 150 frames - not to mention discs with a data track that also change the value of the audio part's lead-out offset.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #17 –
Quote from: skamp on
he won't be able to match a burned disc against databases such as MusicBrainz.

Your advocacy is noted; I would agree that MusicBrainz is in a class of its own.

Quote from: skamp on
The much less precise FreeDB would be more forgiving, since it uses rounded down offsets expressed in seconds (hence all the collisions).

As far as getting presented with a correct hit, FreeDB is extremely forgiving; to the point where a cue sheet does not matter.

Curious that you would choose to present such a misleading generalization about look-up databases in your previous post.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #18 –
Quote from: greynol on
Curious that you would choose to present such a misleading generalization about look-up databases in your previous post.

You may recall that DiscID hashing algorithms are an old pet-peeve of mine - we've debated about them on more than one occasion
I could have worded my first post better, though I've abandonned FreeDB a long time ago. The thing is, look-up databases will only get more precise, not less.

Anyway, given the very small amount of time and hassle it takes to make cue sheets in the ripping process, I can't think of a good reason not to make them…

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #19 –
Bottom Line: If you're about to back up a big collection, and you're somewhat of a perfectionist, make sure you understand all of the settings for your software.  I made a couple of mistakes that I'm kind of regretting.  The mistakes I made had no effect on the sound quality of the rips, but I don't have the ability to perfectly reconstruct the original CDs as CD-Rs.  I'm now evaluating whether or not that matters to me.

I've been ripping my CDs for about 3 years (a total of 368 CDs going through my entire collection and updating when I buy new CDs), using Exact Audio Copy V0.95 beta 4.
I've been converting to flac, level 5, using foobar2000 v0.9.4.2.

My method has been:

1. In EAC, grab CD info from freedb, then sometimes modify the genre setting to conform to my own system of categorizing music.

2. In EAC, create an image file with a cue sheet.

3. In foobar2000, convert the single .wav file to a single .flac file (then delete the .wav file).

4. In notepad, edit the cue sheet file to point to the correct file (i.e. the .flac file, instead of the original .wav file).

And recently, I've decided to go with individual .flac files for individual tracks.

5. In foobar2000, drag in the cue sheet, then convert to .flac level 5 files (splitting up the flac-encoded image).

6. I plan on deleting the flac-encoded images and keeping the cue sheets, in case I want to burn a CD that has the same (or similar, in my case) pre-gaps as the original CD.


What I realized about 100 CDs into my ripping frenzy is that I did not set up EAC with the "read sample offset correction."  I looked up my drives in some database, and I noted that they both happened to have the same offset.  The offset was so small, that I just proceeded to rip the rest of my CDs without worrying about the sample offset correction.  I accepted the inaccuracy, because it seemed so trivial, and I did not want to start over with the rips.

So now after 368 CDs, I noticed another thing I had not set up properly in EAC.  I had the Gap/Index retrieval method accuracy set to "Inaccurate."  I just noticed this today.  When I ripped a particular CD for the 2nd time, forgetting that I had ripped it the first time, I found that I had 2 cue sheets that were different.

One difference was that there was an entry for "Performer" for every track in one of the cue sheets.  The other cue sheet only had the single entry for "Performer" toward the beginning of the cue sheet.  I think this is due to my picking different hits from freedb.

The second difference, is that Index 00 is different by 2 frames for every single track from one cue sheet to the next, except for the first track.  2 frames is about 27 ms.  I would guess that I used 2 different drives for the different rips.  Index 01, however, matches from one cue sheet to the next for every track.  Interesting.

I'm now trying to decide if any of this matters to me, and if so, what I can do about it besides re-ripping 368 CDs.  My original goal was just to have my entire music collection on my computer in a lossless format.  That's been accomplished.

As far as I know, I can't perfectly reconstruct the timing information of the original CDs without re-ripping.  I'm of two minds on this subject.  The perfectionist in me is saying, "oh boy, you screwed up!"  There's also this more dominant side of me that's saying, "Give me a break.  Just enjoy your music!"

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #20 –
Quote from: LocrianGroove on
As far as I know, I can't perfectly reconstruct the timing information of the original CDs without re-ripping.

Of course you can.

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #21 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: LocrianGroove on
As far as I know, I can't perfectly reconstruct the timing information of the original CDs without re-ripping.

Of course you can.


CUETools does appear to fix the sample offset.  I'm still trying to figure out how to fix the Index 00 frame offsets though.  The cue sheets that CUETools writes are identical to the original cue sheets for both of my rips, except it adds this field: REM ACCURATERIPID at the top.  Could I use that ID to find a cue sheet with the correct Index 00 frame offsets?  If so, can someone point me in the right direction?

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #22 –
Quote from: guruboolez on
I don't want two copies of the files so I'd like to let them convert as I DL to the ipod.  Is that possible?
I can do it on Windows with foobar2000 + foo_dop. I'm sure many more softwares can do it.


How long this conversion and copy process takes?
Does the conversion of tags between FLAC/MP3 work (even if you have some special tags in your FLACs)?

Best way to rip and archive FLAC

Reply #23 –
Personally I just keep my rips in seperate files (for better compatibility), and the rare cases of HTOA, i number them as 00.

If you still like to retain the ability to burn a CD as an exact replica, you can save non-compliant CUE-sheets (from EAC) with your rips.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P