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  • greynol
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #25
You can't make the blanket assumption that instrument scale (read: string lengths), string material, construction and gauge remain constant even though the reference pitch changes.  IOW, it's not like reference pitch evolves but the instruments don't.
  • Last Edit: 12 October, 2011, 08:03:49 AM by greynol
13 February 2016: The world was blessed with the passing of a truly vile and wretched person.

Your eyes cannot hear.

  • Northpack
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #26
sonorous and bright sound qualities

Do these terms have (common) definitions? Just asking.

Of course these terms are subjective, but I think it should be easy to link them to the spectrum of overtones an instrument produces.

You can't make the blanket assumption that instrument scale (read: string lengths), string material, construction and gauge remain constant even though the reference pitch changes.  IOW, it's not like reference pitch evolves but the instruments don't.

Who makes this assumption!? That would be the opposite of what I stated in my previous post
  • Last Edit: 12 October, 2011, 08:27:24 AM by Northpack

  • greynol
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #27
Who makes this assumption!?

A question with an exclamation mark?  My aren't we sensitive.

Is it possible that it might have been someone other than you?

Since you seem to want feedback about your post, I can't exactly concur that increasing string tension results in a sound that is thin and harsh.  If you constrain the scale and pitch of the instrument but increase the string gauge (and hence the tension), I don't find that it sounds thin.  When done to the level that the change is audibly perceptible, I have a feeling the results will run counter to the implied claim.
  • Last Edit: 12 October, 2011, 08:49:43 AM by greynol
13 February 2016: The world was blessed with the passing of a truly vile and wretched person.

Your eyes cannot hear.

  • Northpack
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #28
Who makes this assumption!?

Is it possible that it might have been someone other than you?

Using quotes could relieve my sensitivity

Quote
Since you seem to want feedback about your post, I can't exactly concur that increasing string tension results in a sound that is thin and harsh.  If you constrain the scale and pitch of the instrument but increase the string gauge (and hence the tension), I don't find that it sounds thin; quite the opposite.

That's another point. AFAIK lifting the string's tension creates more upper harmonics - so the overall balance shifts towards the bright. Compare the sound of a streel string to that of a nylon string. Of course the steel string guitar has a larger corpus which better amplifies the fundamental and lower harmonics.

Maybe it's my use of the word sonorous which caused confusion. Possibly it has a slightly different meaning in German where is means "deep, dark, full"?
  • Last Edit: 12 October, 2011, 09:22:26 AM by Northpack

  • dhromed
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #29
Quote
AFAIK lifting the string's tension creates more upper harmonics - so the overall balance shifts towards the bright.


See, I was going to assume that more harmonics would be sonorous, while bright would produce an increasingly pure tone and harsher sound.

  • Northpack
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #30
OK, here is what my nylon string guitar says:

[a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/spectrumg.jpg/" target="_blank"]
  • Last Edit: 12 October, 2011, 12:57:30 PM by Northpack

  • greynol
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #31
Revise the experiment with different gauge strings using the same scale.  You also need to make sure the material on which the string is terminated is also the same, otherwise you're bringing more variables into the equation.  Further, there can also be differences in resonances and overtones depending on where the string is in relation to the instrument.

Btw. did you notice that my guitar is tuned to A-432Hz?

...indicating a fundamental problem with your presentation as it relates to the topic.  You should really be comparing the overtones of the same open string tuned to two different notes.

I'd also be interested in a similar test with steel strings, seeing that it may allow more accurate extrapolation to other stringed instruments that do not use nylon.

Maybe it's my use of the word sonorous which caused confusion. Possibly it has a slightly different meaning in German where is means "deep, dark, full"?

Could easily be.  In my circle of English-speaking peers thin/thick/full does not mean the same thing as bright/dark.

I don't believe that jazz and blues guitar players use thicker gauge strings to sound thin and harsh.
  • Last Edit: 12 October, 2011, 02:01:45 PM by greynol
13 February 2016: The world was blessed with the passing of a truly vile and wretched person.

Your eyes cannot hear.

  • Northpack
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #32
You also need to make sure the material on which the string is terminated is also the same, otherwise you're bringing more variables into the equation.

I'll happily neglect this. It really doesn't make much of a difference when I do the same with a fretted F4.

Quote
You should really be comparing the overtones of the same open string tuned to two different notes.

Agreed! I'll do this when I find some time.

Quote
I'd also be interested in a similar test with steel strings, seeing that it may allow more accurate extrapolation to other stringed instruments that do not use nylon.

Noted. I don't expect a fundamental difference though, as the same physical laws apply.

Quote
I don't believe that jazz and blues guitar players use thicker gauge strings to sound thin and harsh.

If you are refering to what I said in post #24, you should note that the construction of steel string guitars differs from classical guitars in several ways: they are build much stiffer and most importantly have an adjustable steel truss rod which bears the strings' tension. If you use thicker gauge strings and/or lifted tunings you have to adjust the truss rod accordingly. That's not possible with a nylon string guitar.

AFAIK most jazzies prefer lighter gauge strings, because they are easier to bend and have a mellower sound. Fingerpicking blues and folk guitarist (like myself ) use medium gauge (.12) to get more sustain and a more brilliant sound. Heavy gauge is used for strumming because you won't do delicate fingerwork and get lots of overtones, making your strummed chords sound even fuller.
  • Last Edit: 12 October, 2011, 02:25:54 PM by Northpack

  • greynol
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #33
I'll happily neglect this. It really doesn't make much of a difference when I do the same with a fretted F4.

Apparently you aren't neglecting this since you are now ensuring strings are terminated in the same way.  I don't particularly care if the strings are played open or not. 

Still you aren't constraining enough variables; at least not enough to satisfy my take on the situation.  Scale is extremely important.

...whatever, I think it's fair to say that differences on materials, construction, scale and string gauge come into play just as establishing a reference frequency on which to base a note all have a bearing on the sound of stringed instruments.
13 February 2016: The world was blessed with the passing of a truly vile and wretched person.

Your eyes cannot hear.

  • dhromed
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #34
I can replicate the extra overtones on the open string vs the fretted string on all strings on my simple bass with, apparently, .045-.105 stainless steel roundwounds. Basically every successive higher string has more overtones than the previous. That doesn't seem too surprising.

I'm not entirely sure what problem we're trying to solve again, but hey, here's the data.

  • botface
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #35
It has been felt at various periods in history that the key of a piece affects the mood (see here) but even if it is the case a difference of 35 cents or so (8Hz @ 440Hz) is relatively small.

So the real test here is to evaluate the differences, if any, between notes 35 cents apart. To complicate matters - assuming a guitar is being used - the chosen note would need to be played on the same fret/string, plucked at exactly the same point between nut and saddle, with the same finger/thumb/pick, using the same angle of attack, at exactly the same intensity with the instrument at exactly the same distance and angle from the mic (assuming an acoustic instrument). That's not as easy as it sounds especially as you will need to put the guitar down after the first note, retune and then pick it up to play the second note

  • greynol
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #36
AFAIK most jazzies prefer lighter gauge strings, because they are easier to bend and have a mellower sound.
Have you looked at the the string diameters on a pack of strings labeled jazz from a company like D'Addario?  Jazz light typically starts at 120 mils; jazz medium at 130 mils.  Compare this with non-jazz-labeled gauges which start at 100 mils and 110 mils, respectively.  Jazz players bend only very rarely, if at all.

Heavy gauge is used for strumming because you won't do delicate fingerwork and get lots of overtones, making your strummed chords sound even fuller.
If you're saying heavier gauge strings sound less thin then we definitely agree, otherwise we'll have to agree to disagree since I really don't have anything to prove here.

Basically every successive higher string has more overtones than the previous. That doesn't seem too surprising.
Let's not move the goal posts here.

To be clear, I took exception to the following:
I've experiented with alternate tunings on my guitar but if you tune the strings of a concert guitar more than two semitones above standard tuning the instrument begins to sound thin and harsh because the added tension inhibits too many lower resonances.

Tuning strings implies a change in tension with the scale remaining constant.  Tests which do not hold the scale constant and adjust the tension constant are not relevant.  Furthermore, the claim is talking about the inhibition of lower resonances.  If this is to include overtones, it had better also include the fundamental.

@botface: I appreciate your reply.  That said, I'm done with this matter.
  • Last Edit: 12 October, 2011, 02:57:08 PM by greynol
13 February 2016: The world was blessed with the passing of a truly vile and wretched person.

Your eyes cannot hear.

  • dhromed
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #37
Let's not move the goal posts here.

Right, missed a sentence earlier.

  • MusX
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #38
anybody heard about foobar plugin to adjust pitch with 3 decimal places precision?
I found two but only with 2 decimal places to adjust.
I'm already tried -0.32, perform blind tests and I'm really surprised.
Did some of you tried blind tests on 432 vs 440? Definitely it should be the first step before going into discussion
my last.fm profile:
http://www.last.fm/user/MusX

  • CoRoNe
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #39
[a href='index.php?showtopic=42705']foo_input_avs[/a].
Code: [Select]
BassAudioSource("<filename>.flac")
TimeStretch(pitch=432.0/4.4)
ConvertAudioTo16bit()
Save as *.avs and feed to foobar2000.
But since that's not really practical for one's audio collection, I made a request, amongst other reasons, for [a href='index.php?showtopic=96929']foo_dsp_avs[/a] (without succes so far).

I haven't done any listening-tests, but [a href='index.php?showtopic=84544']Pitch Shift[/a] @ -0.32 semitones has been one of my standard DSPs for a couple of years now, and I like it very much.
DC-Bass Source Mod: http://reino.degeelebosch.nl

  • andy o
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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz
Reply #40
Did some of you tried blind tests on 432 vs 440? Definitely it should be the first step before going into discussion

To determine what? I don't think anybody here doubts that they sound a little different.