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Topic: Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support (Read 10240 times) previous topic - next topic
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Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

I can't find authoritative information on the internet for this, can the 4gb 2nd generation zune play WMA10, or just wma9 pro? WMA 10 is supposed to have a "frequency interpolation" technique that is going to sound bad if played on a wma9 device.

Also, does it support all formats of WMA10? Like 16/24 bit, in all ripping modes offered by the Windows Media Encoder? Because encoders like Windows Media Player only encodes at a specific setting. (i.e. 16 bit cbr)

Most of the information I found are contradicting each other.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #1 –
Support for anything but plain WMA is iffy for most devices because for some reason MS' codec dev team doesn't communicate that well with the outside world.

TBH I'd suggest you save yourself a major headache and either just use plain WMA (if you must use WMA) or switch over to MP3. Your life will be a LOT easier for it, I assure you as someone who switched from WMA -> MP3 in 2007 myself.
EAC>1)fb2k>LAME3.99 -V 0 --vbr-new>WMP12 2)MAC-Extra High

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #2 –
Isn't the frequency interpolation feature only used a very low bitrates anyway?  I think if you use normal bitrates its backwards compatible, but I really haven't looked at it very closely so I could be completely wrong.  I've only just started studying the new ffmpeg WMA Pro decoder.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
Isn't the frequency interpolation feature only used a very low bitrates anyway?  I think if you use normal bitrates its backwards compatible, but I really haven't looked at it very closely so I could be completely wrong.  I've only just started studying the new ffmpeg WMA Pro decoder.

Maybe, I'm not sure about that.

Quote
Support for anything but plain WMA is iffy for most devices because for some reason MS' codec dev team doesn't communicate that well with the outside world.

TBH I'd suggest you save yourself a major headache and either just use plain WMA (if you must use WMA) or switch over to MP3. Your life will be a LOT easier for it, I assure you as someone who switched from WMA -> MP3 in 2007 myself.

Even for Microsoft's own Zune? Plain WMA doesn't seem to have any advantage over MP3.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
Isn't the frequency interpolation feature only used a very low bitrates anyway?


That is my understanding as well.  I think it is similar to HE-AAC (and mp3pro) in that their technology is really only beneficial at bitrates of around 64kbps and below.  Otherwise, it would be better to stick to standard WMA or WMA pro.  I looked through Wikipedia and found this:
"A WMA 10 Pro file compressed with frequency interpolation mode comprises a WMA 9 Pro track encoded at half the original sampling rate, which is then restored using a new compression algorithm.[26] In this situation, WMA 9 Pro players which have not been updated to the WMA 10 Pro codec can only decode the lower quality WMA 9 Pro stream."

That sounds a lot like HE-AAC to me (LC core with interpolation technology).  Microsoft's website seems to kind of support the same thinking.  They show stereo audio being encoded at 128kbps and lower and 5.1 audio between 128kbps and 768kbps.  I don't know, it seems kind of confusing but I am making an educated guess in saying that, for stereo audio, WMA 10 Pro doesn't offer benefits over WMA 9 Pro.

I could be wrong but the documentation on the internet makes it look like two different "types" of encoders.  The Wikipedia page makes it look like an encoder for lower bitrate audio while Microsoft's page make it look like a high bitrate encoder.  Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in here.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #5 –
All Zune devices can natively play all 2-channel WMA Pro content.  The Zune device is limited to 48 KHz/16-bit playback, however.

WMA Pro is more efficient than standard WMA, but has very little adoption outside of Windows Meida Video use.

Yes, the frequency interpolation function is only used for extremely low bit-rate scenarios.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #6 –
Quote from: grommet on
All Zune devices can natively play all 2-channel WMA Pro content.  The Zune device is limited to 48 KHz/16-bit playback, however.

WMA Pro is more efficient than standard WMA, but has very little adoption outside of Windows Meida Video use.

Yes, the frequency interpolation function is only used for extremely low bit-rate scenarios.

So if I use 24bit 44.1khz then it has to resample it? Then it would not be worth it since the advantages of soundquality would be lost to resampling? I guess I should get an MP3 player after all?

http://www.zune.net/en-ca/mp3players/zune4/specs.htm
This page says "up to 48khz", so that should include 44.1khz as well?

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #7 –
Quote from: grommet on
All Zune devices can natively play all 2-channel WMA Pro content.  The Zune device is limited to 48 KHz/16-bit playback, however.


Yes but I don't think that they can "properly" playback WMA 10 Pro files.  There is a difference between WMA 9 Pro and WMA 10 Pro.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #8 –
WMA 10 PRO tested here and it plays back just fine on a Zune 30gb and Zune 80gb.
Zune 80, Tak -p4 audio library, Lossless=Choice

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Gow on
WMA 10 PRO tested here and it plays back just fine on a Zune 30gb and Zune 80gb.

Is it possible to tell if it's "converted" in any way like with lossless files, or supported natively?

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #10 –
Quote from: HTS on
Quote from: Gow on
WMA 10 PRO tested here and it plays back just fine on a Zune 30gb and Zune 80gb.

Is it possible to tell if it's "converted" in any way like with lossless files, or supported natively?
Well, the file size would be different.  You can browse the device using the Zune software, or you can reverse sync the content back to another PC and you'll get the exact file that was on the device.  Zune supports WMA Lossless, too... without conversion, assuming you set the sync options that way.

Also, regarding your earlier bit-depth comment.... '16-bit' & '24-bit' really doesn't apply to Lossy audio compresion like WMA Pro.  For WMA Pro, it's really just used to control the output behavior.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #11 –
Quote
That is my understanding as well. I think it is similar to HE-AAC (and mp3pro) in that their technology is really only beneficial at bitrates of around 64kbps and below.


AFAIK WMA 10 Pro uses this technology for 96 kbps and below.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #12 –
Quote from: HTS on
Quote from: grommet on
All Zune devices can natively play all 2-channel WMA Pro content.  The Zune device is limited to 48 KHz/16-bit playback, however.

WMA Pro is more efficient than standard WMA, but has very little adoption outside of Windows Meida Video use.

Yes, the frequency interpolation function is only used for extremely low bit-rate scenarios.

So if I use 24bit 44.1khz then it has to resample it? Then it would not be worth it since the advantages of soundquality would be lost to resampling? I guess I should get an MP3 player after all?

http://www.zune.net/en-ca/mp3players/zune4/specs.htm
This page says "up to 48khz", so that should include 44.1khz as well?


I assume that 44.1khz content is played back at native sample rate.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #13 –
Quote from: lvqcl on
AFAIK WMA 10 Pro uses this technology for 96 kbps and below.


Thank you for clearing that up.  So I take it that WMA 10 Pro is the same as WMA 9 Pro at bitrates of 128kbps and above?

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #14 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
Thank you for clearing that up.  So I take it that WMA 10 Pro is the same as WMA 9 Pro at bitrates of 128kbps and above?

I decoded WMA 10 files on two computers: (1) WinXP with default WMP9 and (2) WinXP with WMP11 installed.
For 128 kbps CBR files the results are almost the same (the difference is only in LSB).
OTOH, 96 kbps files were decoded incorrectly on the 1st computer.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #15 –
I'm trying to decide between the Zune and the Sansa Fuze. The good thing about the Fuze is the expandable memory, but if I can compress songs down to 192kb with the WMApro, 4gb of memory is really enough for my needs. Because with MP3 I need 256kbps.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #16 –
I don't think theres much difference between MP3 or WMA at those bitrates.  I would get whichever player looks best to you, and then just use MP3 or WMA, whichever is more convenient.  Vorbis is another option of the fuze, but it will decrease battery life a little since Sandisk's vorbis decoder is a bit slow.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
I don't think theres much difference between MP3 or WMA at those bitrates.  I would get whichever player looks best to you, and then just use MP3 or WMA, whichever is more convenient.  Vorbis is another option of the fuze, but it will decrease battery life a little since Sandisk's vorbis decoder is a bit slow.

There is a quality difference between regular WMA and WMA pro right?

I think I'll get the zune, because the resolution of the Fuze screen is very low.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #18 –
Quote from: HTS on
There is a quality difference between regular WMA and WMA pro right?

Reportedly the quality of WMA pro is significantly better than WMA standard. Its main down side is lack of compatibility.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #19 –
Quote from: HTS on
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
I don't think theres much difference between MP3 or WMA at those bitrates.  I would get whichever player looks best to you, and then just use MP3 or WMA, whichever is more convenient.  Vorbis is another option of the fuze, but it will decrease battery life a little since Sandisk's vorbis decoder is a bit slow.

There is a quality difference between regular WMA and WMA pro right?


Yes, Pro adds better stereo encoding, better lossless packing, and several other improvements, but at 192k I think even WMA Std should be transparent.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #20 –
Quote from: HTS on
I think I'll get the zune, because the resolution of the Fuze screen is very low.


Well, I think you will be disappointed even with the Zune.  The Zune has this large screen yet a low resolution of 320X240.  The Zune HD (which isn't released yet) will fix this issue.  320X240 is just too small for a screen that is 3" or larger.  It makes images and videos look blurry.  That was my number one complaint with my Halo 3 30GB Zune.  I had an iPod touch and the screen was great.  It had a resolution of 320X480 and put the Zune's to shame.  Maybe you would be better off waiting for the Zune HD that comes with a higher resolution OLED screen.  Seriously, if you are going to complain about the Fuze's screen resolution, you have to complain about the Zune's.  In fact, the Fuze's resolution actually makes the screen look better than the Zune's.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #21 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
Quote from: HTS on
I think I'll get the zune, because the resolution of the Fuze screen is very low.


Well, I think you will be disappointed even with the Zune.  The Zune has this large screen yet a low resolution of 320X240.  The Zune HD (which isn't released yet) will fix this issue.  320X240 is just too small for a screen that is 3" or larger.  It makes images and videos look blurry.  That was my number one complaint with my Halo 3 30GB Zune.  I had an iPod touch and the screen was great.  It had a resolution of 320X480 and put the Zune's to shame.  Maybe you would be better off waiting for the Zune HD that comes with a higher resolution OLED screen.  Seriously, if you are going to complain about the Fuze's screen resolution, you have to complain about the Zune's.  In fact, the Fuze's resolution actually makes the screen look better than the Zune's.


I'm not getting the 3 inch zunes, I'm getting the 1.8 inch flash zune. The sansa fuze has a 1.9 inch screen and at a much lower resolution. It's longest dimension has less pixels than the Zune's shortest dimension. The sansa fuze will have problems displaying album art if it has that low resolution.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #22 –
Woops, I forgot that you said that in your starting thread.  Sorry about that.

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #23 –
I would go with the Sansa and the expandable memory, since you can get a 16gb Micro SDHC class 6 from A-Data on Newegg for $49.99USD with Free Shipping.
Zune 80, Tak -p4 audio library, Lossless=Choice

Microsoft Zune and WMA pro support

Reply #24 –
I got the Zune but the software won't see all of my tracks, some tracks are loaded but others on the exact same album are not. They are all WMA pro at the same compression settings of course. But I don't understand why the software won't see some tracks.

I have 30 days for a full refund no restocking fee, I have to see if it's worth keeping.