Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Why do people use images & cuesheets? (Read 24614 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Hi there.
Maybe a n00b question, but why do we need to use image+cuesheet style? Do all of these pre-gaps, post-gaps, ISRC codes contain some sort of "magic"?
My point is, that main thing is sound, not info about data layout on CD. Song doesn't get worse if you strip 2 seconds of silence from it. Finally, storing music on per-track basis is simply more handy and widespread technique.
Caede te ipsum per murum.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Zloboglaz on
Hi there.
Maybe a n00b question, but why do we need to use image+cuesheet style? Do all of these pre-gaps, post-gaps, ISRC codes contain some sort of "magic"?
My point is, that main thing is sound, not info about data layout on CD. Song doesn't get worse if you strip 2 seconds of silence from it. Finally, storing music on per-track basis is simply more handy and widespread technique.


I think it's mostly about being able to recreate a CD that's identical to the original, true to the artist's original intent.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #2 –
mainly because of this (index points):
Code: [Select]
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "00039 d.6"
    INDEX 01 12:37:63
    INDEX 02 13:02:05
    INDEX 03 18:08:44
    INDEX 04 19:05:10


and this (hidden track):
Code: [Select]
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Rpeg"
    ISRC 000000000000
    INDEX 00 00:00:00
    INDEX 01 09:44:57


There are also no tags and everything is done via text files, which is more convenient for me.
And I'm always happy when I spot the "DCP" (digital copy permitted) flag 
Quote from: Zloboglaz on
Song doesn't get worse if you strip 2 seconds of silence from it.

I don't do things that could alter the flow of the album. Anyway, even when ripping to single files this should not happen.

For my DAP I convert the images to single MP3's (and hopefully Musepack when Rockbox gets SV8 support).

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #3 –
I use CDImage, because I don't want do deal with tags when transcoding lossless to lossless. I don't use tag at all except for replaygain & only on separatetrack for my personnal "best of" folder. I use cuesheet because without cuesheet you can't really use accuraterip. I use lossless (Edit: I mean: lossless CDImage) because I don't want to deal with gaps Edit:TAGS. All this put together makes that I use CDImage+cue ... overall I like CDImage+cue because I am past 30 years old so I am old enough to come from an era where people used to buy CD & have collection of hundred of CD. Being from these forgotten times, I consider that an album is a photo of an artist at a period of his evolution, so I consider that an album is a whole single thing with its internal logic, that why I don't like separate tracks, specially without cuesheet.

Quote:
"storing music on per-track basis is simply more handy and widespread technique. "
It is widespread only because the first CD ripper didn't support cuesheet, I disagree with it being more handy, for lossless transcoding it is less handy, due to tags. You have to learn how to keep your tag, which not all software are able to keep.
With time it is becoming less a problem but it was a problem when I started using lossless & using CDImage has became a habbit since that time.

The only reason why I would split my CDImage files to non-compliant cue is the crappy linux support for cue sheet. But I think that without accuraterip support, linux is dead for me anyway. I can live without F2K, but I cannot live without cuetools nowadays.

Quote:
Do all of these pre-gaps, post-gaps, ISRC codes contain some sort of "magic"?
The answer is: yes, it contains the magic keys to Accuraterip ...

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: zipr on
I think it's mostly about being able to recreate a CD that's identical to the original, true to the artist's original intent.


Do you mean physical recreation? Burning image to CD-R? It's curious, because, as far as I see, we're on the way to abandon CD selling in favor of internet music stores.

About AccurateRip. Unfortunately, I have a bad luck with this thing. Either my newly bought CD doesnt present in database, or it has weird pressing and couldnt be verified. I have no accurate CDs at all! :-D
Caede te ipsum per murum.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: sauvage78 on
I use cuesheet because without cuesheet you can't really use accuraterip. I use lossless because I don't want to deal with gaps.

Both of these beliefs are fallacious.
Creature of habit.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #6 –
Ok, there are some pretty bad myths that aren't being addressed here.  As with most misinformation, not addressing it serves to reinforce it.

There is not a single thing a single-file image + cuesheet can preserve that separate files per track + corresponding cue sheet cannot; not one single thing.

Gaps are not lost when ripping to separate tracks unless you explicitly configure the ripper to leave them out.

Transferring tags between tracks when converting between formats is not an issue if you use the right tools and know what you're doing.  Although I use batch files with command-line applications, it's not like this is terribly difficult.  What metadata other than artwork does foobar2000 not preserve metadata when transcoding?  What metadata does dBpoweramp not preserve when transcoding?

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #7 –
I was comparing CDImage+cue vs. separate tracks without cue ... I have nothing against separate tracks+ non compliant cue, did I say anything wrong about separate tracks+non-compliant cue ? I dislike people using lossless without cue, obviously the topic starter doesn't use cue sheet as his tone is ironic (cf "magic") ... re-read my post there is no miss-information in it ... there is my taste simply ... I consider using lossless without a cue a non-sense, is there anything wrong with it ?

Quote: greynol
"Gaps are not lost when ripping to separate tracks unless you explicitly configure the ripper to leave them out."
Gaps are lost when ripping to separate tracks & not keeping the cuesheet, that's where the miss-understanding lies ... obviously the topic starter is asking between the line: "why should I keep the cuesheet? It is useless & people keeping them are not very clever (cf "magic")" ... I am only answering that no, people keeping the cue are clever.

Both you & Soap are mixing Separate Tracks vs. CDImage & with cue (& gaps) Vs. without cue (& gaps) ... maybe I was unclear, but it is only because it was obvious for me that the topic starter was speaking of separate tracks without cue VS. CDImage+cue ... & not separate tracks+cue ...

Quote: Soap
"Both of these beliefs are fallacious."
I disagree both are right from my point of view. Good luck to check your rip for accuracy without a cue & using software that preserve tags is a useless pain, I never said that keeping tags & accessing Accuraterip database without a cue was impossible, I only said that from my point of view it was a pain for no gain.

Anyway I am pretty sure that both Soap & greynol are clever enough to use separate tracks+ non-compliant cue ... so that is really a discussion going nowhere ... there is no argue here CDImage+cue or Separate Tracks+cue (except gaps left out) is exactly the same ... as greynol underlined ...

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: sauvage78 on
re-read my post there is no miss-information in it ... there is my taste simply ...

Huh?
My quote of your post points out at least one piece of missinformation, and if I'm kind I can classify the other as misdirection.

Quote from: sauvage78 on
Both you & Soap are mixing Separate Tracks vs. CDImage & with cue (& gaps) Vs. without cue (& gaps)

No, I was not.  Please do not presume to speak for me.  I was taking you at your literal word.  You said one can not use accuraterip w/o an image and corresponding cue sheet.
This is simply wrong.
Your later clarification seems to imply you meant to say "One can not go back and reverify the accuraterip status of an album without image + cue."
This is also simply wrong.

If I may be so bold as to speak for you as you speak for me - it appears you like to check the accuraterip status of downloads not your own rips, and have found one of the tools to do that, but are unaware of the way most of us use accuraterip.
Quote from: sauvage78 on
Good luck to check your rip for accuracy without a cue

I don't need good luck to use EAC or dBPowerAmp.
Creature of habit.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: sauvage78 on
I disagree both are right from my point of view.


I think you meant to say "I use lossless because I want to", what you said about gapless is just wrong, no matter your point of view.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: sauvage78 on
I disagree both are right from my point of view. Good luck to check your rip for accuracy without a cue & using software that preserve tags is a useless pain, I never said that keeping tags & accessing Accuraterip database without a cue was impossible, I only said that from my point of view it was a pain for no gain.


That is not what you said.  Here is what you previously stated:
Quote from: sauvage78 on
I use cuesheet because without cuesheet you can't really use accuraterip. I use lossless because I don't want to deal with gaps.


That is not a matter of opinion but a "matter of fact" statement.  You can use AccurateRip without using CUE sheets.  It is a painless process in both EAC and dBpowerAMP (haven't used foobar2000 to rip CDs so I can't comment on it) when ripping to individual lossless/lossy files.  dBpowerAMP even has the ability to add AccurateRip information to the track tags of each file.  Additionally, I don't have to worry about gaps either when using lossy encoding.

So I am not sure what makes software such ad dBpowerAMP a "useless pain" especially since most modern applications (iTunes, foobar2000, dBpowerAMP, etc.) can preserve track tags without any hassle.  Again, this is not an opinion but a fact.  Now, you can still have your opinions regarding the use of CUE sheets and lossless file/s but I would stop trying to spin those angles since they are wrong.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #11 –
Big Edit:
Quote Myself:
"I use lossless because I don't want to deal with gaps". READ with TAGS
This is a big Typo, sorry for the confusion it created.

Ok I understund the problem. It's my fault ... I come from separate track lossy & I switched to CDImage+cue at the same time I switched to lossless ... so I don't know why mixed lossy gap issue with the gaplessness by nature of lossless ... my misstake everybody I meant: one of the reason why I used lossless CDImage+cue was the gap problems of lossy ... not that there was an issue with gap in any of the cue sheet style (except left out) ... I dunno why this slipped through my mind as I was answering & I made a typo ... I understand better why everybody was reading missinformation now  I made a big typo due to this much sorry

PS:
Damned I was just asking the question of a newbie & everybody was going to swallow me ? I was asking myself what the hell did I say wrong ? ... will not answer newbie question anytime soon anymore, it's too dangerous

Soap:
I use EAC & I know how to use it with Accuraterip, thks. Cuetools is much easier for my use/taste. I never said you couldn't use Accuraterip without a .cue, I said IMHO it is much easier with a .cue & the evil software called cuetools. Anyway due to the big typo I made the topic is going nowhere, so I prefer shut up & admit I am wrong all the way. I don't even know why I answered this topic in the first place ... in the end I have better thing to do than fighting about miss-understanding with people I know I agree with ...

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #12 –
I was not calling anyone out in particular when I made my statement, though it is clear that my comment regarding metadata was directed at sauvage78's initial post.

I don't really want to get too far away from the original topic, but it is entirely possible to check separate tracks against the AR database without having a CUE, or even a log, but it helps to have at least one of these, though logs created with EAC prior to V0.99 are pretty useless unless gaps were detected prior to ripping.  That said, the only piece of information that is needed is the size of the pregap before the first track, though this can either be guessed or gotten from a database like freedb or musicbrainz.  CUE Tools may even be able to do it, at least the request was made by a couple of people and Gregory Chudov is pretty responsive to these types of things.  There's the situation with enhanced discs, too, but I think I've said enough already.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #13 –
My reason for the use of image files and cuesheets is the amount of files. With CDimage and appropriate cuesheet there is only two files for me to handle, but with separate tracks + cuesheet, there is usually at least 8 files to handle. This is of course a preference but I'm so used to the image + cuesheet that I don't want to go back. Less files is easier for me to handle even though the data size is the same.  I'm so simple person, don't make it too difficult for me, 42 is enough.
Hevay is The Way!

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #14 –
Regarding metadata I said that I started using CDImage because when I started using lossless it was not as easy as it is now to keep tags & that since that time using CDImage has became an habbit ... again in my mind it is clear that this is true, but I agree it might not be clear for others ... I can date it very precisely due to vorbis string: I started using lossless CDImage when I stopped using vorbis & I stop using vorbis when aotuv B3 get out which bring us back to ... 2004. So I completely agree with myself on this point, back in 2004 transcoding lossless to lossless & keeping the tags was not as easy as it's now. If I recall well I struggled with command line software (maybe Case's wapet) some time before I gave up & started using CDImage. A small part of the "popularity" of CDImage comes from this forgotten times. You know the times where a lot of people on this board were using Musepack...

As minor advantage-flaw: Separate tracks is better for HDD fragmentation (with CDImage you have to defragment bigger files). Having all metadata in a cue is better to do search on HDD without being spammed by songs results. (at the opposite if you like searching songs, then separate track is better for you)

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #15 –
It was mentioned earlier, but I think the premise of moving to a society that likes to listen to individual tracks is flawed in the first place, and I fight it tooth and nail.  We already have a problem with attention span in this sound-byte world.  I don't want to add to it.
/soapbox

I mainly use CD images and cue sheets for backup purposes as well as listening (I use FLAC).  I may want to recreate my original CD's if they ever get damaged or lost.  The original gaps are very important if you are used to .... well...hmm... actually listening to more than one song in a row.  Some albums, like Pink Floyd The Wall as a classic example, flow well with no or little gaps.  Many classical albums with movements are the same way.  Some have music in Index00.  Many albums from the 80's on down used an appropriate amount of silence between the tracks.  Some .5 seconds, some 2 seconds, some none.  If you were used to listening to the original vinyl/tapes back then, it was important.  Everyone knows exactly how much 'space' there is between We Will Rock You and We Are The Champions.  Any more or less is wrong.

I don't buy singles off iTunes, I didn't buy 45's or cassette singles when I was younger either.  Personally, if I only liked a single song from an artist, I wouldn't have bought the CD anyway.  There is the some purpose to "artist intent."

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: greynol on
Again(!)

Gaps aren't lost when you rip as individual tracks.


They can be though.

Either you have to add it to the previous or next track, or it's lost.  Is there another choice?  Think of pregaps as another song entirely.  Either you incorrectly add it to another track, or you get rid of it.  Both are wrong if maintaining the album integrity is important.

When I rip the tracks later out of my FLAC image, if I indeed want to just listen to a single tune, there is no reason why I would want an extra 2 seconds or so of silence (if that is what it is) listening to a single song.  Gaps are most appropriate when listening to a whole album.  I agree that they are inappropriate when listening to a single song.  When you rip to individual tracks, it only satisfies the single song problem, provided you remove gaps.


Edit: I am writing in response to the OP, not any side discussion underneath.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #18 –
What's so wrong with a 2 sec gap when listening to single tracks not meant to be played back to back in the first place? I would actually prefer it that way if I had my tracks on shuffle.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #19 –
[CDImage+cue]=[Tracks+cue (gaps appended)]= [Tracks+cue (gaps preppended)]=Perfect CD copy.

[Tracks without cue at all (gaps joined)] or [Tracks+cue Gaps left out]=Not perfect or possibly not perfect CD copy, (but still lossless audio ...)

When speaking of separate tracks, people should always tell what cue setting they use. So if you're a newbie to gap settings in cuesheet, the best thing to do is to start using CDImage+cue as you can't be wrong. That is an avantage of CDImage+cue ...  no headache with learning about gaps ... it's likely that's it's what I had in mind when I did my typo about gaps ... maybe I didn't finish my sentence & meant "I use lossless CDImage because I don't want to deal with all the gap setting available with separate tracks" in all honesty I don't recall, anyway the way I put it in words was cleary wrong.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #20 –
With all due respect, to me this rather seems to be an playground for retrogressive* attitude. You lose nothing without single file images, neither gaps (appending is the default setting for ages), nor INDEX 00/01 info, which is perfectly save within cuesheet + multiple tracks, nor an album context. If I want to listen to the whole "The Wall" album I enter "Wall" into iTunes' search box and instantly have the full thing in order, gaps or gapless (as the original), and lossless for my enjoyment - including track titles and a high resolution album cover. Choosing a deprecated storage format is neither an appropriate form of protest against what you don't like about this society, nor has not choosing your format anything to do with a listeners attention span or preference for full albums.

Edit: I have just found out that "retrogressive" might not be the correct translation for what I have meant. In German there is a single word for a mindset in the sense of "in the past everything was better" and I thought "retrogressive" was the proper translation.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: valnar on
Either you have to add it to the previous or next track, or it's lost.  Is there another choice?

Yes, you can rip gaps as individual files.  That's a total of four choices.  Now tell me, how many choices to you have with single-file images?

Originally I though you were alluding to the fact that if you have a gap before the first track that contains audio, you either have to prepend it to the first track (forcing all other gaps to be prepended to the next track, which I don't personally like) or it is lost*.

Quote from: valnar on
Think of pregaps as another song entirely.

Perhaps you can give us an example of there being an entire song marked off by a 00 index between two adjacent tracks.  It is customary to only consider the gap that before the first track as a separate song, and only when it's an actual song.

Even if you want to treat the gap between two adjacent tracks as a separate song, you can rip them individually if you like.  EAC doesn't give the option to generate a cue sheet from a disc to accommodate one file per index, though it will if you split a single-file wave image + cue sheet.  Creating a script to generate a proper CUE from indices ripped as individual tracks should be trivial, though. 

Quote from: valnar on
Either you incorrectly add it to another track, or you get rid of it.

In the case of the gap before the first track, how is this any different from appending it to the beginning of a single-file image?  How is it any different from a single-file image in the general case other than you lose the option to get rid of them?

Quote from: valnar on
Both are wrong.

As a statement of fact or opinion argued from some kind of authority, this is nonsense.  Otherwise it's just an opinion which is probably better kept to oneself.  I don't go around telling someone that it's wrong to dip their fries in ketchup.

Quote from: valnar on
Gaps are most appropriate when listening to a whole album.  I agree that they are inappropriate when listening to a single song.

How do you handle this dilemma when you want to play a single song from an image, presumably using a CUE sheet and an appropriate player?

(*) Your other choice is to rip the tracks the standard way which is to append them (or not detect them, resulting in the same thing).  In the case of pregap before the first track, rip it separately (provided your drive is even capable!).  Make an adjustment to your noncompliant CUE to include the data, and guess what, you're good to go.  If your drive can't read HTOA, then the point of losing data is moot.

Will a third time be a charm?
Gaps are not lost when ripping to separate tracks unless you explicitly configure the ripper to leave them out.

EDIT: Yep, lots.  Sorry to those who are annoyed by them.

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #22 –
I use disc.image + cuesheet. Or rather cd.range + cuesheet, for my classical collection. I rip the movements from a composition as one piece of music. Most of the time one listens to the whole piece and not to a single movement. However, you can listen to the seperate movements by choosing them in the cuesheet. When I started to archive my other discs I went on ripping them as an image with cue. And even my longer track versions are accompanied with a 'movement' cuesheet. The long version of Get Ready (Rare Earth) for instance. I can now choose the drumsolo or the guitar solo or whatever.

Disadvantage: you can't shuffle within an image; or maybe foobar can ?

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Zloboglaz on
Hi there.
Maybe a n00b question, but why do we need to use image+cuesheet style? Do all of these pre-gaps, post-gaps, ISRC codes contain some sort of "magic"?
My point is, that main thing is sound, not info about data layout on CD. Song doesn't get worse if you strip 2 seconds of silence from it. Finally, storing music on per-track basis is simply more handy and widespread technique.

In the land of the late 90's before LAME stored gapless info in the file headers and when everyone had tiny harddrives and was ripping to mp3's some people were (rightfully, IMO) upset that mp3's couldn't be played back gaplessly. Since not all tracks have gaps (like Sgt. Pepper's or most Pink Floyd albums), the gaps were annoying to have to listen to.

The solution was to rip to a disc image and store track info in a cue sheet.

Since then, cue sheets have proven themselves useful in other capacities.
elevatorladylevitateme

Why do people use images & cuesheets?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: greynol on
As a statement of fact or opinion argued from some kind of authority, this is nonsense.  Otherwise it's just an opinion which is probably better kept to oneself.  I don't go around telling someone that it's wrong to dip their fries in ketchup.


No, if I want to keep the CD intact, it's the best way.  If that is not your goal, then fine.  But to tell me or anyone that it's wrong to do it that way.... is wrong.  It is indeed the best option.  And actually, I don't even need the cue sheet.  It's embedded into the FLAC file, which Foobar recognizes.  Although I do keep the CUE sheet too.

You apparently only listen to single songs, or like to shuffle them.  That is fine, but try to do that with movements of classical music that go together.  The entirety of the album is important to many people.  It's too bad you don't see that.