A couple of nights ago I put an album on to play as I drifted off to sleep and thought I heard some 'flaws' in a couple of the tracks - 256kbps OGGs on the Lplayer. Sure enough, on further inspection there were some fairly noticeable glitches in several tracks. The best non-technical description I can give is if you imagine 8 tracks as part of the music (electronic, ambient so it was all synth stuff), 7 of them were fine but the 8th (in this case the bass) track sounded like someone was playing with the input cable as it was recorded, giving periodic blips in the sound.A straight encode to OGG via either dbpowermap or oggdrop produced the 'worst' result, with noticeable artifacts. Using the SSE, SSE2 and SSE3 options in dbpoweramp all seemed to reduce the problem, but without completely eliminating it. Also, and this is entirely subjective, despite the flaws, all the lossy version seemed to have a much 'brighter' and more dynamic sound than the FLAC. I checked the FLAC files and there appear to be no problems with them.
All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims. Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.
I also have a habit of buying mp3 players when I don't need them, the latest being an iriver Lplayer which can handle FLAC files. Even so, logic would dictate a lossy version would do equally well and make better use of space, so having always used OGG in preference to MP3 I stuck with that.
dbpoweramp has been my ripper of choice in the past for encoding. I suspect my number one mistake may have been using the Music Converter straight from the CD, rather than the dedicated CD Ripper to generate my FLAC files. I can go back and do that again (properly!) if it is likely to have produced less than optimal FLACs - not up enough on the subject to know if this is likely or even possible. I then went from the FLACs straight to OGGs using the same program.
Quotedbpoweramp has been my ripper of choice in the past for encoding. I suspect my number one mistake may have been using the Music Converter straight from the CD, rather than the dedicated CD Ripper to generate my FLAC files. I can go back and do that again (properly!) if it is likely to have produced less than optimal FLACs - not up enough on the subject to know if this is likely or even possible. I then went from the FLACs straight to OGGs using the same program. Just cut dbpoweramp out of the picture entirely and try some of the other suggested methods. One method would be to rip to FLAC directly and then encode using Oggdrop. My next suggestion to you as was mentioned above would be to transcode your files to Vorbis using the Foobar2000 converter just to be safe. This is how I prefer to do out of convenience. It's much more effcient method and may even save time. There could be something wrong with the encoder, but it's highly unlikely.
As a slight thread fork, as it is only a matter of time til I want another player, anyone give me a recommendation for an OGG capable player which doesn't have this problem as I'd still prefer to have OGGs than MP3s?
Out of interest, what is your logic behind choosing Vorbis over MP3? If there is none then it's likely to lead to illogical decision making when choosing your next player.
I might have been surprised given their track record if there was a poor OGG implementation on the player (I'd need someone who knew more than me to confirm that) but now I see that the iaudio7 also has issues with OGG maybe it's more likely than I thought, especially given iriver's slapdash approach to customer service, upgrades to firmware etc. For example, having bought the player for the FLAC/OGG capability, I was very annoyed to find that despite tagging my files 'correctly' (at least they work on every other player player I've tried them on) the player either point blank refuses to show artist, album, track or art info, or does so apparently at random. I've been through their customer support links, and via the company I bought the player from and not even had the courtesy of an acknowledgement they got my mails.
Back to the replies, next job that I can do then is get my hands on a copy of Foobar2000 and do some more encoding/transcoding/testing. I'll try to do it over the next few days and report back. I will also test them on my old H-140 (although it sort of defeats the purpose of having a new player if I have to go back to my old one again).
Heh, it probably started out as just being different from the mass of ipod drones out there wink.gif Obviously people here are way beyond my level of technical understanding, but I'd wager if you stopped 10 people in the street and asked them what an OGG was you'd be lucky to find one who knew the answer... people seem(ed) to reckon Vorbis was a good codec anyway so I've stuck with it. Frankly, if I'm looking down the wrong end of another serious overhaul I want it to be the last time, and I certainly have no problems if that has to be as MP3s.
If that's the case then it's more then likely a subpar implementation of Tremor in this particular iRiver player. I don't know that for sure, but I am just speculating based upon some of the other issues you are having with this player that this is more then likely the case.
iRiver has a few other models that have FLAC and Vorbis support including their new "Spinn". If you take them off the table then your second best bet for out of the box support would be Cowon. They make some solid players as well they get a lot of praise around here.
Which is kind of a sad thing considering Mozilla just invested $100,000 dollars into continued open source development for the project and for Xiph.
If the Lplayer is **** because of this Tremor issue is it likely to be the same with the Spinn and other iRiver players? Anywhere I can find out which ones are likely to be affected?
but is the 50KB saving that I read the low_accuracy Tremor implementation of OGG gets really worth it on something with a 4GB capacity?
Why, oh, why would a company who has produced great pieces of technology in the past suddenly decide to produce this PoS that can't even fulfil the basic requirements of playing a *supported* format correctly? OK, it's a portable player, but is the 50KB saving that I read the low_accuracy Tremor implementation of OGG gets really worth it on something with a 4GB capacity? Definitely a case of the Emperor's new clothes with 'ooh look at it's innovative interface, look at the video capability blah blah' - how about actually playing the damn music I bought it for?
It does lead me to wonder just how many people are using OGG as a format; back to a comment I made earlier in the thread but I can't think I've ever met someone who, in a casual conversation about digital music, has used it and most have never even heard of it.
Have you tried using a lower bitrate OGG setting? 3G iPods had this one issue with VBR Lame mp3 files in that the player would introduce a slight audible pause whenever the bitrate jumped in the song. I found that -V 3 (--preset-medium back then) files were fine, my 3G iPod had issues with higher bitrate mp3 files. The issue was resolved with newer iPods. Additionally, have you tried updating the firmware of your Lplayer? I would also suggest that you conduct your own blind ABX tests before deciding that OGG is the way to go. I see that you are using a 256kbps setting. I think the general consensus is that modern encoders/formats pretty much all sound alike at such a high bitrate. From my experience, the benefits of OGG (just like AAC) are heard at much smaller bitrates. Just a thought.
Thanks for that. I have come across anythingbutipod.com before and looked at some of the reviews. I have to hold my hand up to a certain anti-ipod feeling as well, which was based on lots of things other than sound quality.
I guess what surprised me most about all of this is that before I came here I never saw a single complaint about this issue - the store I bought from had forums and all the reviews were glowing, and misticriver.net (which was my original goto place for advice and info) seems to have become very quiet and any questions I've asked in the past which I thought would be much less technical and simpler to answer got the tumbleweed treatment. It does lead me to wonder just how many people are using OGG as a format; back to a comment I made earlier in the thread but I can't think I've ever met someone who, in a casual conversation about digital music, has used it and most have never even heard of it.
I think it will garner more support, once it get's adopted as part of the HTML 5 standard and is incorporated into Mozilla along with Theora. We will have to see as only time will tell. It has a fan base right now, despite the fact that it's rather small and there is no universal hardware decoder that supports it "out of the box". We will see what happens.
Even if/when it gets adopted into the HTML standard, I'm not sure how much support it'll get.Maybe if Youtube and other similar websites leverage it. I'm not holding my breath, though.
QuoteEven if/when it gets adopted into the HTML standard, I'm not sure how much support it'll get.Maybe if Youtube and other similar websites leverage it. I'm not holding my breath, though. Well Youtube has crappy video quality to begin with, because they use FLV plugin. Theora is somewhere in the middle right now, but still requires some work to be done to be on par with H.264. Thusnelda is coming along pretty nicely though. I am not just referring to Youtube either. I am talking about a lot of other popular Web 2.0 sites also, which may consider adopting it.
I'm just pessimistic about its adoption.Especially since there's apparently no actual standard about what codecs and/or container formats should go inside the <video> tagAnd Youtube's started using h.264 for some things.
So, given I can quite happily continue to stick with OGGs instead of going back to MP3, what IS my next player going to be now?