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  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #25
Wow, how can you hear that? I wouldn't have expected this. I thought your key to success is solely a very high cut-off in combination with the shabby treatment of most codec presets of the >16k Hz range. I have found out that even the highest quality setting of QT's true VBR still cuts at 18k, which I don't appreciate. People being able to hear higher frequencies should at least be able to switch this off. This last sample was iTunes plus (256 kbit/s constrained VBR), which straightforwardly preserves anything until over 20khz.


I can not hear anything over 18.5k - 19k Hz, am just sensitive to precho and warbling artifacts and others aswell. Also the first test of your sample was sorta luck and being very picky at around 0.13.
  • Last Edit: 15 March, 2009, 05:07:21 PM by /mnt
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • rpp3po
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
Human Disease sample.
Reply #26
Are you sure about your inability to ABX Nero 1.3.3.0 -q 0.55?

If yes, that would be an impressive victory for Nero. Well, only one sample - but a very tough one.

  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #27
Are you sure about your inability to ABX Nero 1.3.3.0 -q 0.55?

If yes, that would be an impressive victory for Nero. Well, only one sample - but a very tough one.


I have passed a few ABX test with Nero AAC at 0.55 a number of times, but at q 0.53 it takes alot more effort to do so just like LAME -V 1. Am sure this sample could be ABXable at 0.55 if i really try harder; but that would make me more sensitive to precho. Anyway Nero AAC chokes just as bad as Helix mp3 on that Linchpin sample i uploaded.
  • Last Edit: 15 March, 2009, 05:31:11 PM by /mnt
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • rpp3po
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
Human Disease sample.
Reply #28
A second result would be that iTunes Plus (QT 256kbit/s VBR constrained) is not (considerably) better than Quicktime True VBR, albeit using more than 30% more disk space, with problematic source material. Not forgetting that we are talking about a very high quality level, which most people cannot differentiate at all and also you only with difficulties.
  • Last Edit: 15 March, 2009, 05:37:29 PM by rpp3po

  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #29
A second result would be that iTunes Plus (QT 256kbit/s VBR constrained) is not (considerably) better than Quicktime True VBR, albeit using more than 30% more disk space, with problematic source material. Not forgetting that we are talking about a very high quality level, which most people cannot differentiate at all and also you only with difficulties.

I found the iTunes and Quicktime encodes did a good job making the precho problem transparent; but they seem to struggle with the disortion noises later on the sample.
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • rpp3po
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
Human Disease sample.
Reply #30
You're probably through for today. Attached you'll find Linchpin QT encodes, in case you should be interested later.

  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #31
You're probably through for today. Attached you'll find Linchpin QT encodes, in case you should be interested later.

I'll try them tommorrow, am been meaning to test this sample out with iTunes AAC weeks ago.
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • rpp3po
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
Human Disease sample.
Reply #32
The encoding mode I made those with, is only available in iTunes since 8.1, which is only a couple of days old. Maybe it's better, maybe not.

  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #33
The encoding mode I made those with, is only available in iTunes since 8.1, which is only a couple of days old. Maybe it's better, maybe not.

Likely be the same; but there has been known regression issues with iTunes + Quicktime in the past. Such as the thundershock (or whatever it was called) sample.
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • rpp3po
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
Human Disease sample.
Reply #34
I have followed Quicktime AAC for quite some time, because I was always out for a native Apple solution. Quicktime AAC wasn't really all that great and I used Nero through Wine for a long time. And you are right it even became worse over time. This changed at some point, I think it was Quicktime 7.2. Since then quality is improving again. Especially Quicktime 7.6 was a huge step up for higher bitrates.

  • Busemann
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #35
I have found out that even the highest quality setting of QT's true VBR still cuts at 18k, which I don't appreciate. People being able to hear higher frequencies should at least be able to switch this off. This last sample was iTunes plus (256 kbit/s constrained VBR), which straightforwardly preserves anything until over 20khz.


Hmm.. I just checked the q127 file and the cutoff seems to be around 19khz.

  • rpp3po
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
Human Disease sample.
Reply #36
Hmm.. I just checked the q127 file and the cutoff seems to be around 19khz.


I can confirm that. At 19khz is a steep cutoff, not at 18khz and not only for this file. I have checked the track that I had based my former statement on again and it's also 19khz. Must have confounded the columns. True VBR seems fine then; I don't consider 19khz problematic. LAME's 16khz (if you couldn't switch it off for young ears) yes, but 18khz was already a borderline case and 19khz shouldn't really make a difference.
  • Last Edit: 15 March, 2009, 06:53:43 PM by rpp3po

  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #37
@ rpp3po

I did a test with those iTunes AAC files, and it seems that Nero AAC does has some issues with that sample.

iTunes

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/03/16 21:07:20

File A: C:\Temp\Linchpin [Edit].flac
File B: C:\Downloads\Linchpin__QtTrueVBR127.m4a

21:07:20 : Test started.
21:08:04 : 01/01  50.0%
21:08:47 : 02/02  25.0%
21:09:03 : 02/03  50.0%
21:09:08 : 03/04  31.3%
21:09:34 : 03/05  50.0%
21:09:47 : 04/06  34.4%
21:09:58 : 05/07  22.7%
21:10:07 : 06/08  14.5%
21:10:19 : 06/09  25.4%
21:10:31 : 06/10  37.7%
21:10:36 : 07/11  27.4%
21:10:44 : 08/12  19.4%
21:10:54 : 09/13  13.3%
21:11:05 : 09/14  21.2%
21:11:10 : 09/15  30.4%
21:11:20 : 10/16  22.7%
21:11:29 : 11/17  16.6%
21:11:45 : 12/18  11.9%
21:12:03 : 13/19  8.4%
21:12:05 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 13/19 (8.4%)

Am not sure about this encode, it was hard to ABX.

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/03/16 21:12:45

File A: C:\Temp\Linchpin [Edit].flac
File B: C:\Downloads\Linchpin__iTunesPlus.m4a

21:12:45 : Test started.
21:13:41 : 00/01  100.0%
21:13:49 : 00/02  100.0%
21:14:28 : 00/03  100.0%
21:14:48 : 00/04  100.0%
21:15:04 : 00/05  100.0%
21:15:10 : 00/06  100.0%
21:15:14 : 00/07  100.0%
21:15:18 : 01/08  99.6%
21:15:26 : 02/09  98.0%
21:15:43 : 03/10  94.5%
21:15:57 : 04/11  88.7%
21:16:03 : 04/12  92.7%
21:16:12 : 04/13  95.4%
21:16:16 : 04/14  97.1%
21:16:21 : 04/15  98.2%
21:16:22 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 4/15 (98.2%)

Seems transparent to me.

Nero AAC 1.3.3.0

q 0.50

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/03/16 21:17:58

File A: C:\Temp\Linchpin [Edit].flac
File B: C:\Temp\Linchpin.mp4

21:17:58 : Test started.
21:18:22 : 01/01  50.0%
21:18:34 : 02/02  25.0%
21:18:47 : 03/03  12.5%
21:19:04 : 04/04  6.3%
21:19:18 : 05/05  3.1%
21:19:31 : 06/06  1.6%
21:19:43 : 07/07  0.8%
21:19:49 : 08/08  0.4%
21:19:57 : 09/09  0.2%
21:20:07 : 10/10  0.1%
21:20:23 : 11/11  0.0%
21:20:38 : 12/12  0.0%
21:20:39 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

Better then q 0.40, but still full of smearing and warbling.

q 0.55

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/03/16 21:21:37

File A: C:\Temp\Linchpin [Edit].flac
File B: C:\Temp\Linchpin q 0.55.m4a

21:21:37 : Test started.
21:21:53 : 01/01  50.0%
21:22:06 : 02/02  25.0%
21:22:19 : 02/03  50.0%
21:22:25 : 03/04  31.3%
21:22:35 : 04/05  18.8%
21:22:39 : 05/06  10.9%
21:22:51 : 06/07  6.3%
21:23:09 : 06/08  14.5%
21:23:14 : 07/09  9.0%
21:23:24 : 07/10  17.2%
21:23:28 : 08/11  11.3%
21:23:32 : 09/12  7.3%
21:23:40 : 10/13  4.6%
21:23:45 : 11/14  2.9%
21:23:54 : 12/15  1.8%
21:24:06 : 13/16  1.1%
21:24:14 : 14/17  0.6%
21:24:18 : 15/18  0.4%
21:24:23 : 16/19  0.2%
21:24:30 : 17/20  0.1%
21:24:45 : 18/21  0.1%
21:24:53 : 19/22  0.0%
21:24:55 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 19/22 (0.0%)

An improvement over q 0.50, smearing is gone but theres warbling on the guitars. Dammit that track is not transparent to me at q 0.55 anymore 
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • rpp3po
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
Human Disease sample.
Reply #38
Thank you /mnt, your ears are golden! That's very interesting input. And all this despite your heavy metal consumption...  Or maybe exactly that made you so sensitive for compression artifacts, because it is so hard to compress properly.

I have repeated the ABX tests. I fail at both QT encodes, but Nero VBR at q .5 is really very easy as you say, even to my ears. But I couldn't really get .55 anymore and instantly failed. Then I somehow got a hold of some wobbling, but very faintly. After some tries I lost it again and was already feeling some fatigue. If I had continued after No. 23 the results would have got worse and worse. Anyway, the Nero devs should have a look at this. q 5 is really a good general setting for most cases. It would be even better without slips like that.

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.2
2009/03/16 23:24:33

File A: C:\windows\profiles\crossover\Desktop\My Mac Desktop\Linchpin__Edit_.flac
File B: C:\windows\profiles\crossover\Desktop\My Mac Desktop\Linchpin__neroq5.m4a

23:24:33 : Test started.
23:25:22 : 01/01  50.0%
23:25:36 : 02/02  25.0%
23:25:50 : 03/03  12.5%
23:26:13 : 04/04  6.3%
23:26:29 : 05/05  3.1%
23:26:43 : 06/06  1.6%
23:27:03 : 07/07  0.8%
23:27:20 : 08/08  0.4%
23:27:23 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 8/8 (0.4%)


Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.2
2009/03/16 23:29:22

File A: C:\windows\profiles\crossover\Desktop\My Mac Desktop\Linchpin__Edit_.flac
File B: C:\windows\profiles\crossover\Desktop\My Mac Desktop\Linchpin__neroq55.m4a

23:29:22 : Test started.
23:29:30 : 00/01  100.0%
23:29:46 : 00/02  100.0%
23:30:03 : 01/03  87.5%
23:30:38 : 02/04  68.8%
23:31:02 : 03/05  50.0%
23:31:25 : 04/06  34.4%
23:31:41 : 04/07  50.0%
23:32:05 : 05/08  36.3%
23:32:43 : 06/09  25.4%
23:33:09 : 07/10  17.2%
23:33:41 : 08/11  11.3%
23:34:01 : 09/12  7.3%
23:34:29 : 10/13  4.6%
23:34:42 : 11/14  2.9%
23:35:01 : 12/15  1.8%
23:35:14 : 13/16  1.1%
23:35:27 : 13/17  2.5%
23:35:50 : 13/18  4.8%
23:36:16 : 13/19  8.4%
23:36:33 : 14/20  5.8%
23:36:52 : 14/21  9.5%
23:37:19 : 15/22  6.7%
23:37:45 : 15/23  10.5%
23:37:50 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/23 (10.5%)


  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #39
Thank you /mnt, your ears are golden! That's very interesting input. And all this despite your heavy metal consumption...  Or maybe exactly that made you so sensitive for compression artifacts, because it is so hard to compress properly.

I have repeated the ABX tests. I fail at both QT encodes, but Nero VBR at q .5 is really very easy as you say, even to my ears. But I couldn't really get .55 anymore and instantly failed. Then I somehow got a hold of some wobbling, but very faintly. After some tries I lost it again and was already feeling some fatigue. If I had continued after No. 23 the results would have got worse and worse. Anyway, the Nero devs should have a look at this. q 5 is really a good general setting for most cases. It would be even better without slips like that.


Thanks for testing the sample out and also proved it was easy to ABX at q 0.50, I posted a few ABX logs on the Nero AAC 1.3.3.0 topic.
  • Last Edit: 16 March, 2009, 08:26:44 PM by /mnt
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • C.R.Helmrich
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
Human Disease sample.
Reply #40
Hi all,

thought I should recycle this thread. I found a single-tone sample from an 80's Roland MKS-50 digitally controlled analog synth which I recorded back in 2004 in 16-bit/96-kHz. I converted this to 16-bit/44.1-kHz this morning and - just for fun - tried a foobar ABX vs. LAME -V3. This is what I got.

Code: [Select]
C:\>lame -V3 B86_WhatThe_Chorus.wav
LAME 3.98.2 32bits (http://www.mp3dev.org/)
CPU features: MMX (ASM used), 3DNow! (ASM used), SSE (ASM used), SSE2
Using polyphase lowpass filter, transition band: 17960 Hz - 18494 Hz
Encoding B86_WhatThe_Chorus.wav to B86_WhatThe_Chorus.wav.mp3
Encoding as 44.1 kHz j-stereo MPEG-1 Layer III VBR(q=3)
    Frame          |  CPU time/estim | REAL time/estim | play/CPU |    ETA
  1074/1074  (100%)|    0:01/    0:01|    0:01/    0:01|   15.886x|    0:00
32 [  16] **
40 [   0]
48 [   0]
56 [   1] %
64 [   0]
80 [   0]
96 [  25] %%*
112 [  95] %%%%%%%%***
128 [ 105] %%%%%%******
160 [  74] %********
192 [  17] %*
224 [  82] **********
256 [  41] *****
320 [ 618] %*******************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   kbps        LR    MS  %     long switch short %
  250.3       13.0  87.0        25.4   9.6  65.0
Writing LAME Tag...done
ReplayGain: -6.6dB

_______________________________________________________________________________

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.5
2009/05/16 13:41:55

File A: C:\B86_WhatThe_Chorus.wav
File B: C:\B86_WhatThe_Chorus_mp3.wav

13:41:55 : Test started.
13:42:49 : 01/01  50.0%
13:44:22 : 02/02  25.0%
13:45:04 : 03/03  12.5%
13:45:39 : 04/04  6.3%
13:46:31 : 04/05  18.8%
13:47:21 : 05/06  10.9%
13:48:14 : 06/07  6.3%
13:49:16 : 07/08  3.5%
13:49:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 7/8 (3.5%)


The MP3 (decoded to 16/44 WAV and delay-compensated) sounds excellent, but apparently is not transparent. There are two tones in the excerpt. I listened to each tone 4 times. Audio setup: Sennheiser HD-590 directly connected to a Terratec Phase 22 via Y cable.

I also uploaded the 16/96 version since it contains a lot of content above 22 kHz. I might try to ABX the 16/44 FLAC against the 16/96 FLAC soon.

Chris


The files Warning: LOUD!
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
  • Last Edit: 16 May, 2009, 08:42:34 AM by C.R.Helmrich
If I don't reply to your reply, it means I agree with you.

  • Raptus
  • [*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #41
With Nero AAC 1.3.3.0 at -q 0.55 I managed to ABX Human Disease 13/13 (pre-echo and stereo image where there is none in the original) and Linchpin 8/8 (smeared hihat attacks).

EDIT: Attached reports
Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.9
2009/09/17 17:11:41

File A: C:\temp\_ - _ - Human_Disease.mp4
File B: C:\temp\Human_Disease.flac

17:11:41 : Test started.
17:12:03 : Trial reset.
17:14:39 : 01/01  50.0%
17:14:56 : 02/02  25.0%
17:15:38 : 03/03  12.5%
17:16:04 : 04/04  6.3%
17:16:24 : 05/05  3.1%
17:16:34 : 06/06  1.6%
17:16:42 : 07/07  0.8%
17:16:50 : 08/08  0.4%
17:17:01 : 09/09  0.2%
17:17:13 : 10/10  0.1%
17:17:26 : 11/11  0.0%
17:17:37 : 12/12  0.0%
17:18:00 : 13/13  0.0%
17:18:08 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 13/13 (0.0%)
Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.9
2009/09/17 17:19:29

File A: C:\temp\Linchpin__Edit_.flac
File B: C:\temp\05 - Fear Factory - Linchpin.mp4

17:19:29 : Test started.
17:19:49 : 01/01  50.0%
17:20:02 : 02/02  25.0%
17:20:40 : 03/03  12.5%
17:21:42 : 04/04  6.3%
17:21:51 : 05/05  3.1%
17:22:03 : 06/06  1.6%
17:22:16 : 07/07  0.8%
17:22:31 : 08/08  0.4%
17:23:18 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 8/8 (0.4%)
  • Last Edit: 17 September, 2009, 11:33:32 AM by Raptus

  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #42
With Nero AAC 1.3.3.0 at -q 0.55 I managed to ABX Human Disease 13/13 (pre-echo and stereo image where there is none in the original) and Linchpin 8/8 (smeared hihat attacks).


Sounds like the same problems i spotted aswell. I didn't noticed the stereo image artifact on Human Disease though, just the pre-echo that makes it sound like a water sprinkler.
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Human Disease sample.
Reply #43
This sample is also ABXable with QuickTime True VBR at 60:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.0
2010/01/18 03:17:56

File A: C:\Temp\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Human_Disease QT TVBR 60.m4a

03:17:56 : Test started.
03:18:14 : 01/01  50.0%
03:18:27 : 02/02  25.0%
03:18:39 : 03/03  12.5%
03:18:56 : 04/04  6.3%
03:19:14 : 05/05  3.1%
03:19:24 : 06/06  1.6%
03:19:47 : 07/07  0.8%
03:20:16 : 08/08  0.4%
03:20:29 : 09/09  0.2%
03:20:55 : 10/10  0.1%
03:20:58 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)

It has pre-echo and the disortions past 0:15 sounds messy.
  • Last Edit: 18 January, 2010, 10:39:42 AM by /mnt
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"