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Topic: USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card (Read 11294 times) previous topic - next topic
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USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

I apologize for this post as this has been hashed to death here and there.  Currently, I have about 600 GB of music in FLAC format (mostly 16/44.1, some as 24/96) that I play off of a Windows XP/Pentium IV, onboard sound (pretty weak), through the headphone port on the  front.  I have a pretty large collection of mp3 (Lame -v2) that I use with an iPod.  In the near future I'd like to buy a nice (~$200) pair of headphones to use with both my computer and my iPod.  I don't want to blow all my money on an amp and am considering a cmoy amp for ~50 (I can't solder and am not good with building things) that could be used (hopefully) with both an iPod and computer audio.

Given all this, I'm not sure what the best route is to get music out of my computer.  Given that I could run the digital signal through ASIO to either a PCI Sound Card or a USB-DAC and, this is the main part, a budget of `$200 (hopefully no more), which is the best way to go?  Currently I see (on Amazon):

E-MU 0202 USB 2.0 for $106
M-Audio Audiophile 2496 for $87
M-Audio Audiophile 192 for $137

Am I right to assume that I can run FLAC, via ASIO, through either the PCI sound card or USB-DAC and use the output of that (through a cmoy amp) for my headphones?  I don't plan on running 5.1 dts or 7.1 surrounds, I do no PC-gaming, and maybe far-off into the future I might invest in some nice speakers and an amp/receiver set (could use the S/PDIF out from the Sound Card).  Am I also correct in thinking that either choice would have little to no noticeable jitter and/or computer noise?

Any other selections in this price range (~$200) would be great and your feedback is greatly appreciated.

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #1 –
The first choice you have to make is USB vs. PCI.

The advantage of USB cards like 0202 (which are more than just DACs) is that they will typically have a headphone amp on-board, so you won't have to buy/build one.

Typically they have many additional features, which you probably don't need, like microphone preamps. 

Thre are USB1.1 and USB 2.0 cards, and USB1.1 is limited to stereo output or input (not both) at 24/96, or stereo input AND ouput at 24/48, or probably 2+4 at 16/48. Which may be enough for you. USB2.0 cards have no such limitations.

PCI is usually thought to be more reliable than USB. My experiences vary - I have heard terrible dropouts from Audiophile 192 using WDM, and slow playback start using ASIO - both on a slow and old computer though.

Currently I am using M-Audio Fast Track Pro, which is a USB1.1 interface.  The computer is also quite slow (but faster than the one which I used with AP192), and sometimes (rarely) the sound switches to an interrupted mode, especially when there is a lot of disk activity from other programs. This happens with ASIO, despite having big ASIO buffers. I suspect that in a newer and less overloaded system you should not see such problems, but I cannot be sure, also WDM should be safer, I am not sure about Kernel Streaming. I am still investigating the problem.

You may want to consider carefully what kind of functionality you need. I wanted 24-bit playback, separate headphone and balanced line out outputs, each with an analog volume pot, not more that $200, no firewire. This basically reduced my options to about 3 or 4 USB interfaces, and my preference for knobs and connectors being placed on the front of the box (not on the top) reduced the choice further to two: Tapco link.USB and M-Audio Fast Track Pro. I ultimately decided on Fast Track Pro because it has more connectivity options. I found it for ~$160 with free shipping and with free microphone at BH Photo Video.
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #2 –
The first question, maybe, is what is "pretty weak" with your onboard sound? It is not impossible that you will do better by buying your nice headphones first, and then seeing later what, if any, upgrades you need to the electronics.

Are there specific problems with your present set-up? Even if it could be improved in a general kind of way, it's possible that the better experience with good phones will keep you happy while you're gathering the money for an offboard system.

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #3 –
Thank you both for your replies.

When I'm playing music back, through headphones, even with the volume adjustment at Max, it's not terribly loud (I'm only using a ~$60 pair of Philips earbuds).  I assume that this is where an amp would help.  I don't know how an iPod works but it's Max volume, with same headphones, is quite loud (even too loud while riding a bike in windy conditions).  The second thing is that often times I hear crackles or static and, this may sound weird, often times the noise is correlated with moving the mouse or moving windows, although noise still creeps in when doing nothing but listening to music.  Would a USB DAC/Amp or a PCI Sound Card eliminate these noise problems (and low volume settings)?

Second, if I get new headphones (Grados/Sennheisers, etc.) wouldn't these, necessarily, require the analog signal to be amplified?

Could someone explain what balanced analog signal means?

Looking at the USB DAC+ options, I notice the volume knobs for headphones....this looks promising.  Could I still run music via ASIO, wtihout any PCI Sound Card (using onboard sound) to output to the E-MU?

Sorry for all the noob questions, but this is all very confusing and I've found that people have strong preferences for their audio setups.

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #4 –
I forgot to add that I have no need for mic inputs and/or lines for guitars/instruments.

Basically, I want a card/DAC that can handle ASIO, can handle 24/96, a built-in amp would be appreciated, and could have optical out (for stereo upgrade later).

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #5 –
Quote from: dodog on
When I'm playing music back, through headphones, even with the volume adjustment at Max, it's not terribly loud (I'm only using a ~$60 pair of Philips earbuds).  I assume that this is where an amp would help.  I don't know how an iPod works but it's Max volume, with same headphones, is quite loud (even too loud while riding a bike in windy conditions).  The second thing is that often times I hear crackles or static and, this may sound weird, often times the noise is correlated with moving the mouse or moving windows, although noise still creeps in when doing nothing but listening to music.  Would a USB DAC/Amp or a PCI Sound Card eliminate these noise problems (and low volume settings)?


For the most part, yes, I've found that usb cards remove all the crackles and pops you get from the processor by doing tasks you describe.  I can't explain the sound, but you shouldn't need an amp for any earbuds.  You'd actually probably overpower them with an amp because they aren't built with extreme power in mind.

Quote
Second, if I get new headphones (Grados/Sennheisers, etc.) wouldn't these, necessarily, require the analog signal to be amplified?


Depends on the model.  The more expensive models typically have a higher ohm rating, and thus need more power to be driven.  If you're looking at a Sennheiser PX-100 or Grado SR60, then you won't need to overamplify these as they're made for more portable use and don't need amps.

Quote
Could someone explain what balanced analog signal means?


I'm assuming he means that the left/right channels are equal and there is no equalizer settings to amplify or decrease certain sounds (i.e. bass).


That's about all I can answer offhand.  Good luck. 
foobar 0.9.6.8
FLAC -5
LAME 3.98 -V3

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #6 –
OK, you need some kind of extra sound equipment. "Weak" = "not enough volume" is a good reason for an amp, whether a dedicated headphone amp or in an interface, PCI or external.

Funny noises when doing things on the computer, or when the HDD is active, is a known problem with poor onboard sound. It's not you, it happens.

At this point, my small knowledge runs out. You might care to search among the forums--I remember a number of threads that might help you. I believe that there are some well-recommended sound cards that would eliminate your problems for surprisingly little money, and have an onboard amp as good as the iPod, and so get you into nice 'phones that much quicker.

Good luck, have fun, and remember that with digital, good enough really is good enough.

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #7 –
Quote from: dodog on
Would a USB DAC/Amp or a PCI Sound Card eliminate these noise problems (and low volume settings)?
My USB card eliminated the computer generated noise completely (my onboard card used to pick up quite a lot of this, too). Also, the built-in headphone amp can drive my high-impedance low-sensitivity headphones (Sennheiser HD580) to more than necessary volume.
A good PCI card, though it is placed within a computer and surrounded by other devices generating electrical interference, should not pick up any audible noise.

Quote from: dodog on
Second, if I get new headphones (Grados/Sennheisers, etc.) wouldn't these, necessarily, require the analog signal to be amplified?
If you use an external (e.g., USB) card with a built-in headphone amp, then probably you won't need an amplifier with any headphones, although I can't guarantee it for any possible card/built-in amp + headphones combination. PCI cards usually have no headphone output, though I was told that they usually can drive most headphones properly from their line-out outputs.

Quote from: dodog on
Could someone explain what balanced analog signal means?
This is a way of sending signals typically used in pro or semi-pro equipment. Balanced connections are less susceptible to picking up external noise than regular, unbalanced connections, though it should matter only for long connections in very noisy environment. Balanced connections need special cables (with three wires per channel, whereas unbalanced needs only two), the devices connected need to support balanced connections, and different plugs are usually used than for unbalanced connections. Unbalanced usually uses RCA (phono) connectors, rarely TS jacks, or a single 1/8" TRS jack carrying two channels in one connector - the latter are used in consumer sound cards or computer speakers. Balanced typically use 1/4" TRS jacks (one connector per channel) or XLR connectors.

The important thing is that even if your sound card has only balanced output, you can use it with unbalanced amp. Of cards which you mentioned in the beginning:
E-mu 0202 has unbalanced line output via two 1/4" TS (not TRS) jacks or a single 1/8" TRS jack.
Audiophile 2496 has unbalanced line out via two RCA connectors
Audiophile 192 has balanced line out via two 1/4" TRS  connectors.

To connect Audiophile 192 to an unbalanced amp, you need to use cable with TS connectors on the card's side.

My M-Audio Fast Track Pro, on the other hand, has balanced 1/4"TRS line outs duplicated as unbalanced RCA line outs.

You need to check this to make sure that you get right cables to connect the card to your amp (if you decide to get one).


Quote from: dodog on
Looking at the USB DAC+ options, I notice the volume knobs for headphones....this looks promising.  Could I still run music via ASIO, wtihout any PCI Sound Card (using onboard sound) to output to the E-MU?

To use E-mu 0202, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, M-Audio Transit, Edirol UA-1EX, Lexicon Alpha, Tascam UL-122, Alesis IO2 or a similiar USB card, you will need only a USB connection (2.0 for some, 2.0 or 1.1 for other). Probably all of these whill support ASIO (why do you need ASIO, by the way?). Your onboard card or any other PCI card is not necessary to use an external USB card.
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #8 –
Quote from: pawelq on
Probably all of these whill support ASIO (why do you need ASIO, by the way?)


I questioned that too. Since apparently you aren't recording with this, there's no real need for ASIO, even though as I understand it, ASIO is a software and/or driver feature.

Quote
The more expensive models typically have a higher ohm rating, and thus need more power to be driven.


I've been wondering about this. Why is this? Why are the expensive "high end" headphones also high impedance? Are there any high end, low impedance headphones? If not, what are the factors in headphone construction that require high impedance for "high" performance? Sorry if it's a bit off topic...

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #9 –
Quote from: singaiya on
I questioned that too. Since apparently you aren't recording with this, there's no real need for ASIO, even though as I understand it, ASIO is a software and/or driver feature.

There is a reason for using ASIO for playback. ASIO bypasses the Windows mixer's "wave" slider, thus allowing to set different volume levels for your audio application (which would use ASIO) and other programs (which would use WDM). This is very useful if you listen to music while, for example, browsing the Internet where you can encounter commercial ads with sounds or webpages with background music. However, it can be usually acheived equally well with Kernel Streaming.

The whole thing is not an issue on Vista, which allows per-application volume setting, and also offers WASAPI Exclusive mode, which blocks access to soundcard for all applications except one.
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #10 –
I'm running XP, so WASAPI i snot an option.  My understanding of ASIO was that I could bypass Windows' DirectSound and go directly to the Sound Card.  No, I'm not an engineer/mixer/musician, so maybe this isn't needed.

The USB DAC is looking more promising as it has the direct input for the headphones and the integrated amp.  Do most DACs have an optical out for later integration to a stereo or is this unneeded as one could pump the amplified anaolog signal directly to a receiver and lose no signal loss?

This may be a very dumb question but do USB DACs do the Dolby decoding (as well as DTS and other common encoders)?

I'm not opposed to a USB 1 DAC but would prefer USB-2.  Does anyone else have experience with these and/or suggestions?

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #11 –
Quote from: dodog on
I'm running XP, so WASAPI i snot an option.  My understanding of ASIO was that I could bypass Windows' DirectSound and go directly to the Sound Card.


Usually you could use Kernel Streaming for that purpose as well.


Quote from: dodog on
Do most DACs have an optical out for later integration to a stereo or is this unneeded as one could pump the amplified anaolog signal directly to a receiver and lose no signal loss?


Some have digital output, though not necessarily optical. All of them (USB and PCI) have (not amplified) analog line-out which can be send to a stereo amplifier, without any noticeable signal loss in normal conditions. Now as you understand the whole thing better, I think it's time to browse manufacturers' webpages, read specs, download manuals, and find out which interafces will meet your citeria. The list of interfaces I gave you in one of my posts may serve as a starting point, or try "audio interfaces" section of website like Sweetwater.com or MusiciansFriend.com .
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #12 –
I use the Denon AHD-5000 headphones which are very easy to drive and I just don't/won't bother using them from either my computer or my receiver headphone amplifier.

The sound is less than inspiring, imaging sufferers a lot and transient attack is just lifeless.

So personally I would get a USB DAC HP amp combo and see if you can get some Denon AHD-2000s which is now the third to top model and apparently not to far off some say better than the 5000s. They are closed backed so better at isolating any external noise.
 

USB DAC vs PCI Sound Card

Reply #13 –
Another (though more expensive option) is to go with a headphone amp that has a built in USB DAC.  Something like the XM5 by Practical Devices:
http://www.practicaldevices.com/index.htm

I have the XM4 and I love it.  I use it with a pair of Sony headphones and it is connected to a SqueezeBox.  I've used it with my iPod too.

From what I've read, the XM5 is the XM4 design with the addition of the USB DAC.  They also improved upone the button/knob layout.

There are other manufacturers out there, but they tend to get more expensive.  You could check out www.head-fi.org for dedicated discussion on headphone amps.

The advantage with something like this is it is a device dedicated to the purpose of listening to music with headphones.  It doesn't have mic or instrument inputs.  There are no mixing capabilities.  There is no phono input.  Being a dedicated device, the quality tends to be better.  On the downside, it is a niche device, so it tends to be a little pricey.

Just another option you might want to explore.