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  • /mnt
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Helix with metal music
I have done a couple of tests with Helix "-X2 -U2 -V60", it seems to struggle greatly with Metal music.

Iron Maiden - 2 Minutes To Midnight

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6 beta 3
2008/11/25 22:16:12

File A: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Samples\2 Minutes To Midnight.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Helix V60\2 Minutes To Midnight.mp3

22:16:12 : Test started.
22:16:36 : 01/01  50.0%
22:16:41 : 02/02  25.0%
22:16:46 : 03/03  12.5%
22:16:58 : 04/04  6.3%
22:17:05 : 05/05  3.1%
22:17:09 : 06/06  1.6%
22:17:15 : 07/07  0.8%
22:17:24 : 08/08  0.4%
22:17:30 : 09/09  0.2%
22:17:34 : 10/10  0.1%
22:17:41 : 11/11  0.0%
22:17:47 : 12/12  0.0%
22:17:48 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

Alot of warbling on the guitar and drum smearing.

Iron Maiden - Aces High

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6 beta 3
2008/11/25 22:18:34

File A: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Samples\Aces High.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Helix V60\Aces High.mp3

22:18:34 : Test started.
22:18:56 : 01/01  50.0%
22:19:14 : 02/02  25.0%
22:19:24 : 03/03  12.5%
22:19:29 : 04/04  6.3%
22:19:36 : 05/05  3.1%
22:19:44 : 06/06  1.6%
22:19:52 : 07/07  0.8%
22:20:04 : 08/08  0.4%
22:20:15 : 09/09  0.2%
22:20:22 : 10/10  0.1%
22:20:32 : 11/11  0.0%
22:20:41 : 12/12  0.0%
22:20:42 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

Drum smear at the start, and plenty of guitar warbling. Sound like a "a swish splash show"

Fear Factory - Descent

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6 beta 3
2008/11/25 22:21:32

File A: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Samples\Descent.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Helix V60\Descent.mp3

22:21:32 : Test started.
22:21:44 : 01/01  50.0%
22:21:50 : 02/02  25.0%
22:21:56 : 03/03  12.5%
22:22:01 : 04/04  6.3%
22:22:08 : 05/05  3.1%
22:22:15 : 06/06  1.6%
22:22:22 : 07/07  0.8%
22:22:27 : 08/08  0.4%
22:22:31 : 09/09  0.2%
22:22:38 : 10/10  0.1%
22:22:44 : 11/11  0.0%
22:22:53 : 12/12  0.0%
22:22:55 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

Smearing and warbling, just plain awful. Sounds like a Blade encoding.

Skinny Puppy - Dig It

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6 beta 3
2008/11/25 22:24:28

File A: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Samples\Dig It.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Helix V60\Dig It.mp3

22:24:28 : Test started.
22:24:58 : 01/01  50.0%
22:25:03 : 02/02  25.0%
22:25:09 : 03/03  12.5%
22:25:18 : 04/04  6.3%
22:25:23 : 05/05  3.1%
22:25:29 : 06/06  1.6%
22:25:37 : 07/07  0.8%
22:25:45 : 08/08  0.4%
22:25:56 : 09/09  0.2%
22:26:03 : 10/10  0.1%
22:26:07 : 11/11  0.0%
22:26:15 : 12/12  0.0%
22:26:17 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

Smearing all over the place. Even Helix can struggle with Electric music.

Fear Factory - Replica

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6 beta 3
2008/11/25 22:26:40

File A: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Samples\Replica.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Helix V60\Replica.mp3

22:26:40 : Test started.
22:26:55 : 01/01  50.0%
22:27:00 : 02/02  25.0%
22:27:06 : 03/03  12.5%
22:27:11 : 04/04  6.3%
22:27:16 : 05/05  3.1%
22:27:25 : 06/06  1.6%
22:27:34 : 07/07  0.8%
22:27:43 : 08/08  0.4%
22:27:47 : 09/09  0.2%
22:27:53 : 10/10  0.1%
22:27:59 : 11/11  0.0%
22:28:05 : 12/12  0.0%
22:28:06 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

Sounds like a Blade encoding. Very poor for 128kbps standards.

Metallica - Trapped Under Ice

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6 beta 3
2008/11/25 22:28:32

File A: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Samples\Trapped Under Ice.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Helix 128 VBR Test\Helix V60\Trapped Under Ice.mp3

22:28:32 : Test started.
22:28:43 : 01/01  50.0%
22:28:47 : 02/02  25.0%
22:28:52 : 03/03  12.5%
22:28:57 : 04/04  6.3%
22:29:01 : 05/05  3.1%
22:29:06 : 06/06  1.6%
22:29:11 : 07/07  0.8%
22:29:18 : 08/08  0.4%
22:29:23 : 09/09  0.2%
22:29:28 : 10/10  0.1%
22:29:33 : 11/11  0.0%
22:29:38 : 12/12  0.0%
22:29:47 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

Warbling on the guitar.

I will be still avoiding Helix, since it sounds plain bad with Metal music. IMO i recken theres something wrong with Helix's block usage. Anyway i have uploaded the samples, if anyone wants to try them out aswell.




----------------------------------------
And now for something completely different.

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6 beta 3
2008/11/25 22:50:39

File A: C:\Rips\Skinny Puppy - Mind, The Perpetual Intercourse\08. Dig It.flac
File B: C:\Rips\Nine Inch Nails - Pretty Hate Machine\03. Down In It.flac

22:50:39 : Test started.
22:50:47 : 00/01  100.0%
22:52:03 : 00/02  100.0%
22:52:09 : 00/03  100.0%
22:52:14 : 00/04  100.0%
22:52:19 : 00/05  100.0%
22:52:25 : 00/06  100.0%
22:52:30 : 00/07  100.0%
22:52:37 : 00/08  100.0%
22:52:44 : 00/09  100.0%
22:52:52 : 00/10  100.0%
22:52:59 : 00/11  100.0%
22:53:03 : 00/12  100.0%
22:53:04 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 0/12 (100.0%)

Both tracks sound identicle 

EDIT: Have to reupload samples since one of the tracks encoded with 3.98 has a MAJOR replaygain issue.
  • Last Edit: 27 November, 2008, 05:59:59 PM by /mnt
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Helix with metal music
Reply #1
I have reuploaded the samples without the encoded mp3s.

WARNING: Anyone with the original sample set with the 3.98.2 encodes, please avoid the LAME 3.98.2 version of Trapped Under Ice, since a mp3 decoding bug that appears after a heavy use of FLACs (that i have tried to report months ago, but no one belives me) on foobar2000, messed up the ReplayGain that produces a very loaud disortion.
  • Last Edit: 25 November, 2008, 07:18:41 PM by /mnt
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

  • ExUser
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Read-only
Helix with metal music
Reply #2
WARNING: Anyone with the original sample set with the 3.98.2 encodes, please avoid the LAME 3.98.2 version of Trapped Under Ice, since a mp3 decoding bug that appears after a heavy use of FLACs (that i have tried to report months ago, but no one belives me) on foobar2000, messed up the ReplayGain that produces a very loaud disortion.
This bug may have been fixed in v0.9.6 beta 5, when a strange and rare MP3 decoder bug was fixed.

  • patmcg
  • [*][*]
Helix with metal music
Reply #3
please avoid the LAME 3.98.2 version of Trapped Under Ice, since a mp3 decoding bug that appears after a heavy use of FLACs (that i have tried to report months ago, but no one belives me) on foobar2000, ...


What is a heavy use of FLACs?
Is your perfect hearing worth <$200? -- USE EAR PLUGS

  • rohangc
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Helix with metal music
Reply #4
Looks like I'll be sticking with good ol' LAME for now

Helix with metal music
Reply #5
I found this out whenever Lame 3.98.2 was released.  I always conduct a listening test between every major mp3 encoder (Lame, iTunes, FhG, and Helix) whenever a new version of Lame is released.  I conducted a test when 3.98.2 came out comparing bitrates of about 170kbps VBR.  My library mainly consists of metal music (from all the metal sub-genres) and some hard rock (AC/DC, Guns N' Roses, Seether, etc.).

I was unable to ABX between the source lossless files and Lame at -V 3 for most of the tracks (I tested 12 tracks and only had one incident with Lame during a particular metal song for only a few seconds in the beginning).  The iTunes mp3 encoder did pretty good but I could only get it to use up to 166kbps VBR but I passed about half of the ABX tests.  The FhG encoder did a little better but I was able to pass a handful of the ABX tests.  I passed ALL of the ABX tests with Helix at the 170kbps VBR setting.

I don't know what it was about Helix but it just didn't do a good job with metal and hard rock (10 metal tracks, 2 hard rock).  I didn't test any other setting as Lame at -V 3 is perceptual to me so there is no need to use a higher bitrate setting.

  • shadowking
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Helix with metal music
Reply #6
I had similar findings for heavy music on that helix encoder a few years ago.
wavpack -b4x4s1c

  • rohangc
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Helix with metal music
Reply #7
I didn't test any other setting as Lame at -V 3 is perceptual to me so there is no need to use a higher bitrate setting.

I switched to LAME 3.98.2 -V 3 myself as I too was unable to tell the differences between the source FLAC files and these MP3 files. My collection also consists mainly of heavy metal music.

I am sticking with LAME 3.98.2 for now.
  • Last Edit: 26 November, 2008, 05:41:07 AM by rohangc

  • Silversight
  • [*][*][*][*]
Helix with metal music
Reply #8
Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6 beta 3
2008/11/25 22:50:39

File A: C:\Rips\Skinny Puppy - Mind, The Perpetual Intercourse\08. Dig It.flac
File B: C:\Rips\Nine Inch Nails - Pretty Hate Machine\03. Down In It.flac

...

 ----------
Total: 0/12 (100.0%)
Both tracks sound identicle 
Shouldn't you get ~6/12 for that conclusion?
Nothing is impossible if you don't need to do it yourself.

  • tycho
  • [*][*][*][*]
Helix with metal music
Reply #9

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6 beta 3
2008/11/25 22:50:39

File A: C:\Rips\Skinny Puppy - Mind, The Perpetual Intercourse\08. Dig It.flac
File B: C:\Rips\Nine Inch Nails - Pretty Hate Machine\03. Down In It.flac

...

 ----------
Total: 0/12 (100.0%)
Both tracks sound identicle 
Shouldn't you get ~6/12 for that conclusion?
Hehe, good catch.  0/12 is in reality the same as 12/12 (when you report the opposite of what you hear). Random answers would give ~6/12.

  • /mnt
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Helix with metal music
Reply #10
[quote name='Canar' date='Nov 26 2008, 01:28' post='601318']
[quote name='/mnt' post='601314' date='Nov 25 2008, 16:14']WARNING: Anyone with the original sample set with the 3.98.2 encodes, please avoid the LAME 3.98.2 version of Trapped Under Ice, since a mp3 decoding bug that appears after a heavy use of FLACs (that i have tried to report months ago, but no one belives me) on foobar2000, messed up the ReplayGain that produces a very loaud disortion.[/quote]This bug may have been fixed in v0.9.6 beta 5, when a strange and rare MP3 decoder bug was fixed.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info, i will have try beta 5, am still using beta 3 for some reason . Hopefully its the rare decoding issues with mp3 frames below 128kbps, that appear after i use other codecs such as FLAC.

[quote name='patmcg' date='Nov 26 2008, 06:26' post='601344']
[quote name='/mnt' post='601314' date='Nov 25 2008, 14:14']please avoid the LAME 3.98.2 version of Trapped Under Ice, since a mp3 decoding bug that appears after a heavy use of FLACs (that i have tried to report months ago, but no one belives me) on foobar2000, ...[/quote]

What is a heavy use of FLACs?
[/quote]

Just of a long seesion of playing music, transcoding and replaygaining my FLAC (Lossless) collection.

[quote name='rohangc' date='Nov 26 2008, 06:31' post='601346']
Looks like I'll be sticking with good ol' LAME for now
[/quote]

Same here.

[quote name='Silversight' date='Nov 26 2008, 13:17' post='601391']
[/quote]
Shouldn't you get ~6/12 for that conclusion?
[/quote]

[quote name='tycho' date='Nov 26 2008, 14:57' post='601411']

Hehe, good catch.  0/12 is in reality the same as 12/12 (when you report the opposite of what you hear). Random answers would give ~6/12.
[/quote]

Whoops, i should have done that test random, should've took my time on it aswell . Anyway it was joke about Down In It being a rip off from Dig It.
  • Last Edit: 26 November, 2008, 02:33:45 PM by /mnt
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

Helix with metal music
Reply #11
helix caught my attention in the public listening test...too bad it doesnt do good with metal...since thats what i listen to  i'll stick with flac/lame for now

  • dnewhous
  • [*][*]
Helix with metal music
Reply #12
I also found that AVS4YOU has deletrious effects on dbPoweramp during the install.  All the icons in the "Converting to" combo box in the context menu for dbPoweramp appear unassociated.