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Topic: HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System" (Read 34058 times) previous topic - next topic
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HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

I know that HDCD  supposedly outputs 20-bit sound (with a proper HDCD decoder and using frequency expansion techniques stored in the 16th bit), but what about this "20-bit K2 Super Coding System"?  I've seen it on very few CD's and was wondering what the difference was and how the sound for this is reproduced from a Red-book standard audio CD?  Thanks for the help.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #4 –
Wow, that does sound pretty shady...

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #5 –
I can't really understand what that page says, but from the two diagrams of a standard CD and a "K2HD" coding they appear to have disproved the Nyquist theorem... indeed somehow they can represent frequencies higher than the sample rate!

Reason enough to stay well away from this K2HD, I think.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #6 –
K2HD is just a gussied-up term for high-definition mastering.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #7 –
Marketing.  Most mastering is done at >16bits these days anyway, has been for a long time, at least since the time  when Sony was touting 'Super Bit Mapping'.  The final product is delivered on CD at 16bits via noise shaped dithering.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #8 –


Well, aside from the engrishh twanszlashun on that page...  I gather that it goes something like this:

A 20-bit data signal is compressed using codecs and a chipset, to 'fit' on a 16-bit redbook CD.

Said 20-bit signal is decompressed on the fly during playback with same codec / chipset.

Perhaps I’m “not in Kansas anymore” with that interpretation, but that’s what I figured I saw in the story...

Andrew D.
www.cdnav.com

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Axon on
K2HD is just a gussied-up term for high-definition mastering.

In that case they should not claim that they preserve all the "charm" and "information" of the full bandwidth while mastering finally to 44.1 kHz / 16 bit.

That's just marketing BS.

High-definition mastering (before going "down" to Audio-CD format) is just to avoid artifacts, not to preserve the full bandwidth.

Quote from: digital on


Well, aside from the engrishh twanszlashun on that page...  I gather that it goes something like this:

A 20-bit data signal is compressed using codecs and a chipset, to 'fit' on a 16-bit redbook CD.

Said 20-bit signal is decompressed on the fly during playback with same codec / chipset.

I don't really understand what you mean. On the website they claim that they can "decompress" the full bandwidth out of an audio-CD (once it is a 16-bit / 44.1 kHz signal). According to them that works because they mastered it in a "special way". That's how I understand it.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #10 –
That's what it sounded like to me.

I don't understand how the K2HD could possibly work as digital understands it, given that it claims to play back on standard CD players.

I read their website as bug80 did, which implies that the whole process is just nonsense.


100kHz tones can't be represented using 44.1ks/S, however you look at it. It's possible to get more bit depth (or certainly more perceived bit depth) of course, but still not true 20 bit audio without breaking compatibility with standard CD players.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #11 –
Quote from: bug80 on
I don't really understand what you mean.
Quote from: digital on
Perhaps I’m “not in Kansas anymore” with that interpretation, but that’s what I figured I saw in the story...

Quote from: tgoose on
I don't understand how the K2HD could possibly work as digital understands it, given that it claims to play back on standard CD players.
Quote from: digital on
Perhaps I’m “not in Kansas anymore” with that interpretation, but that’s what I figured I saw in the story...

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #12 –
greynol, could you explain your point?

English is not my native language so maybe I didn't understand the saying "not in Kansas anymore" correctly

My point was not to say that the user digital was wrong with his post, I just don't understand what he meant with:

Quote
Said 20-bit signal is decompressed on the fly during playback with same codec / chipset

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #13 –
Quote from: bug80 on
greynol, could you explain your point?

English is not my native language so maybe I didn't understand the saying "not in Kansas anymore" correctly

It's from the Wizard of Oz.  Dorothy had entered a mystical world that seemed to defy reality.

Bottom line: If you buy a CD that says 20-bit K2 on it, you're still only getting CDDA, just that the digitization was done at a higher resolution and noise shaped dither was used when going to 16-bit 44.1kHz.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #14 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: bug80 on
greynol, could you explain your point?

English is not my native language so maybe I didn't understand the saying "not in Kansas anymore" correctly

It's from the Wizard of Oz.  Dorothy had entered a mystical world that seemed to defy reality.

Ah, thanks. 

Quote
Bottom line: If you buy a CD that says 20-bit K2 on it, you're still only getting CDDA, just that the digitization was done at a higher resolution and noise shaped dither was used when going to 16-bit 44.1kHz.

Yes, and if they indeed do some processing to "move" the > 20 kHz data into the < 20 kHz domain (as the figures on the web page suggest), then you also get something we call "unwanted noise".

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #15 –
btw., the K2HD is the successor of the XRCD, sometimes the K2HD is called also XRCD^2, or XRCD 24 bit, whereas the normal XRCD is 20 bit iirc, but of course, all these ones are standard 16 bit CDDA !

I have listened several HDCDs so far (I have an HK AVR 5000 amp/receiver with digital inputs, which decodes HDCD and shows that symbol.)

But HDCD has never amazed me, like my 1st K2HD did. All in all, HDCD sounded just like "normal well mastered CD/album/music".

I have also listened a few K2HDs so far.
The most amazing K2HD is the sampler, the demonstration K2HD. It sounds so detailed, precise, "airy", yeah,, all those glibberish vocables used by audiophiles came and come to my mind, to describe the real enjoyment of this CD.
Even my girlfriend was impressed (normally she tells soemtimes, her old radio/cassette/CD-boombox was enough/sufficient to play music),
but she was 2 time simpressed:
1st, listening that album on my system,
2nd but later in her own living room, on her system, which consists of a simple Kenwood 5.1 receiver and the classic JBL Control One speakers, as to her philosophy, speakers and HiFi should be small-sized )

The demonstration K2HD is pure CDDA 16 bit, 44,1 kHz, no special decoder required, just a simple CD-player.
And it sounds the most amazing theater/live expereince on HiFi. I have ever heard. Also my sometimes "audiophile-thinking" friends told so.

yes, I waited for the day, until this phenomenon is discussed here at HA.

They have already remastered some old classic albums to K2HD, even from the 1970s. I have listened to them, and think, those sound still good, but not so spectacular/amazing than the demonstartion CD. But those remastered CDs had also the precise abilities to "show" the room of the band playing live.

K2HD (demonstration CD) is stereo at its best imo.

Maybe we need 30s samples in the upload foprum here.

I have collected so far:



Artist: Various Artists, K2 HD SOUND
Album: This is K2 HD Sound!
Year: 2007




Artist: Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Mussorgsky
Album: Pictures At An Exhibition -Live -K2HD 24Bit Remaster VICP-63173
Genre: Prog Rock


Artist: Emerson Lake & Palmer
Album: Emerson Lake & Palmer -K2 HD Japan Remaster
Year: 1970 2005



Artist: Emerson, Lake & Palmer
Album: Tarkus (2005 Japan K2HD VICP-63172)
Year: 1971 2005
Genre: Jazz Fusion ProgRock




Artist: Emerson, Lake & Palmer
Album: Trilogy -K2HD 24Bit Remaster VICP-63174
Year: 1972
Genre: Prog Rock


Artist: Emerson, Lake & Palmer
Album: Brain Salad Surgery -K2HD
Year: 1973



Artist: Todd Rundgren
Album: Something/Anything? CD1+2 -K2HD
Year: 1972
Genre: Pop Rock



Artist: Focus
Album: Focus At The Rainbow -K2HD
Year: 1973 2001
Genre: Progressive Rock


Artist: Focus
Album: Focus 3 -K2 HD
Year: 1972 2001



Artist: Small Faces
Album: Ogdens' Nut Gone Flake
Year: 1968
Genre: Rock


Artist: Judas Priest
Album: Sad Wings Of Destiny -XRCD24 -K2HD
Year: 1976

Maybe somebody has the normal or other remastered or normal XRCD versions at hand, so we could compare same 29s snips out of specified songs.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #17 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: bug80 on
greynol, could you explain your point?

English is not my native language so maybe I didn't understand the saying "not in Kansas anymore" correctly

It's from the Wizard of Oz.  Dorothy had entered a mystical world that seemed to defy reality.
Oztria or Oztralia?

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #18 –
Quote from: digital on


Well, aside from the engrishh twanszlashun on that page...  I gather that it goes something like this:

A 20-bit data signal is compressed using codecs and a chipset, to 'fit' on a 16-bit redbook CD.

Said 20-bit signal is decompressed on the fly during playback with same codec / chipset.

Perhaps I’m “not in Kansas anymore” with that interpretation, but that’s what I figured I saw in the story...

Andrew D.
www.cdnav.com


No, that would be HDCD.

There are no K2SuperCoding chipsets or codecs, AFAIK

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #19 –
Quote from: user on
btw., the K2HD is the successor of the XRCD, sometimes the K2HD is called also XRCD^2, or XRCD 24 bit, whereas the normal XRCD is 20 bit iirc, but of course, all these ones are standard 16 bit CDDA !

I have listened several HDCDs so far (I have an HK AVR 5000 amp/receiver with digital inputs, which decodes HDCD and shows that symbol.)

But HDCD has never amazed me, like my 1st K2HD did. All in all, HDCD sounded just like "normal well mastered CD/album/music".


Which is all XRCD ever was, and all K2 is supposed to be too....CDs where the mastering chain was well-chosen and used with care.  HDCD is actually different in that it really does involve nonstandard decoding at the user end.  However, the HDCD encoding/decoding may or may not itself make an audible difference.  There are options that would seem to make audible difference more likely, like peak extension..but that's an OPTION. 
Rarely if ever have consumers been offered the chance to compare the same recording, mastered with the same levels and EQ from the same source, where one copy is HDCD encoded and the other, not.


Quote
They have already remastered some old classic albums to K2HD, even from the 1970s. I have listened to them, and think, those sound still good, but not so spectacular/amazing than the demonstartion CD. But those remastered CDs had also the precise abilities to "show" the room of the band playing live.


And how do you know you're not hearing effects of different EQ, different compression, different source tapes, different levels?  With Japanese discs, all of these are often different from US versions, whether 'k2' was used or not.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #20 –
This thread is irrelevant without SAMPLES!

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #21 –
See my post above, my list of K2HDs.
It makes sense for me, to wait, until somebody else comes up, and tells, he has this or that album as normal mastering, and then we agree on a sample to compare the versions.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #22 –
Quote from: user on
See my post above, my list of K2HDs.
It makes sense for me, to wait, until somebody else comes up, and tells, he has this or that album as normal mastering, and then we agree on a sample to compare the versions.

Quote from: krabapple on
And how do you know you're not hearing effects of different EQ, different compression, different source tapes, different levels?  With Japanese discs, all of these are often different from US versions, whether 'k2' was used or not.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #23 –
Quote from: user on
See my post above, my list of K2HDs.
It makes sense for me, to wait, until somebody else comes up, and tells, he has this or that album as normal mastering, and then we agree on a sample to compare the versions.



I have several of the CDs you list, in non-K2 versions.

But what is the 'normal' mastering?  Most of those CDs exist in several different masterings over the years.  And how will comparison tell you what improvement is *specific to the K2 process*, versus what might be achieved in *any* mastering session  -- i.e., application of different EQ, compression, levels, source tapes?  I submit that sample comparisons can't answer that question.  Without more information about the mastering sessions, all they can tell you for sure is 'what' differs on two remasterings, we can only speculate as to 'how' and 'why'.

HDCD vs. "20bit K2 Super Coding System"

Reply #24 –
well, but if we don't try any comparison, we won't get a clue ever.
The K2HDs aren't mastered on cheap effects, imo, because they don't sound tiring, if you listen for a longer time.  well, who knows, maybe they have simply EQed the highs or presence of the sprectrum. But such simple effects we could listen maybe by comparison A/B, or by viewing the spectrums, both methods. If you have above albums, maybe suggest a 30 second sample, and I will then cut it out also, busy with work here