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Topic: Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC (Read 23085 times) previous topic - next topic
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Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

I was helping someone over at digital-inn who raised some questions regarding what is said in the wiki, specifically in the EAC Lossless Backup article.

The information in the following lines are completely wrong:
  • Fill up missing offset samples with silence: Unchecked (In later configuration, you will fix your drive offset error so there will be no missing offset samples.)

    Correction: This setting should always be checked.

  • Override Lead-In and Lead-Out: Disable (Your offset should be correct so this is not necessary and will only result in an inaccurate extraction).

    Correction: This setting should be configured based on the configured offset and capabilities of the drive being used.  Furthermore, it is overread, not override.
Mods:  If there is a more appropriate place for this discussion, please move it.

Moved to Wiki Discussion.
    --"Mods"


EDIT: Thanks for the moderation, JensRex.  I could see no other posts in the wiki forum, so I wasn't sure that it was the right place.  I apologize if you found "Mods" offsensive.

Oh dear, I've found another...
  • Ripping a CD
    Select Action>Create CUE Sheet>Multiple WAV Files With Corrected Gaps... (shortcut key combination: Alt+O)

    This is the wrong type of sheet to suggest if you don't also specifically instruct people to rip with gaps appended to the next track.  I should also add that the method of prepending gaps is non-standard.  The proper CUE sheet when leaving EAC at its default gap setting or when ripping before detecting gaps is Multiple WAV Files With Gaps (Noncompliant).

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #1
Well, it seems that nobody has read this article carefully. These lines are definitively wrong, should be changed asap.

Just a little OT: You've just mentioned overread capabilities; what if you check this option and your drive doens't support this? Any drawbacks then?

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #2
Just a little OT: You've just mentioned overread capabilities; what if you check this option and your drive doens't support this? Any drawbacks then?
Not off-topic at all!

Let's say you enter a positive number for the offset correction and you have this setting checked.  If your drive can't overread into the lead-out and the overread samples on the disc you're ripping aren't null, you'll get an error.  It's also quite likely that there will be additional missing samples (substituted with silence) that would not have been had the setting not been enabled.  I've seen situations where otherwise correctly ripped tracks could no longer be verified by AccurateRip.  Finally, this type of error is consistent which means that a pair of matching CRCs are pretty much useless.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #3
Should something like the EAC configuration process be repeated in multiple wiki pages?

BTW - the EAC Drive Configuration page needs work too.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #4
BTW - the EAC Drive Configuration page needs work too.
It sure does!
  • Accurate Stream/Drive has ‘Accurate Stream’ feature
    If EAC reports "Accurate Stream: Yes", enable this option by ticking the "Accurate Stream" box. This means that your drive doesn't jitter and enabling this option on such drives will decrease the probability of errors & cause a speed increase.

    What is in bold is categorically incorrect.

  • Caching/Drive caches audio
    Tip: EAC may misinform about audio caching as an alternative you can use Feurio's audio caching test found in Feurio.exe\Ctrl+Alt+P\Test device\Cache test.

    This is untrue FUD.  Unless someone finds a drive that caches more than 64kB which EAC consistently reports as non-caching, this statement should be stricken.

    Tip: If you are not sure whether your drive caches audio data or not (or if you simply don't wish to perform Feurio's audio caching test and you still want accurate results), as a rule of thumb, enable this option. By doing this, you instruct EAC to flush the cache every time it reads audio data-irrespective of whether your drive caches audio data or not. This might result in lower ripping speeds, but the results will be most accurate.

    Might?  It will result in lower ripping speeds!

    Most accurate? Your rip is either accurate or not accurate.  When dealing with drives that don't cache audio data, selecting this setting will in no way improve accuracy!

  • C2 Error Info/Drive is capable of retrieving C2 error information
    With C2 enabled, EAC's error detection becomes dependent on the drives C2 accuracy which varies from drive to drive & increases the probability of errors, this feature also results in a speed increase because EAC doesn't read the data twice anymore, If your drive supports this feature & you decide to use it enable this by ticking C2 Error Info box.

    Holy run-on, Batman!

    Enabling C2 does not increase the probability of errors, it increases the chances that errors may go undetected.

    Tip: If you are not sure whether your drive is capable of handling C2 error information, as a rule of thumb, disable this option. Once again, this might result in lower ripping speeds, but the results will be most accurate.

    Same issue I had earlier.  Although I agree in principle, the wording should be more precise in order to lower the chances of misinterpretation.  Perhaps it should also be mentioned that C2 information is not used during re-reads and as such its usage provides no benefit other than a speed increase at the expense of security.
...then there's the list of mostly dead links.

Next on my hit-list is the genre issue when configuring EAC away from it's native ID3 tagging in favor of using Lame.  This has led to more trouble than just about anything else I've seen regarding EAC and the wiki.  If you guys want to promote Lame tagging over EAC, that's fine; but do so in a way that doesn't cause potential problems.  Furthermore, I have yet to see a single shred of evidence showing that there's something wrong with the way EAC writes tags (besides the fact that ID3v1 tags are not optional and an EAC line is added).

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #5
Let's say you enter a positive number for the offset correction and you have this setting checked.  If your drive can't overread into the lead-out and the overread samples on the disc you're ripping aren't null, you'll get an error.  It's also quite likely that there will be additional missing samples (substituted with silence) that would not have been had the setting not been enabled.  I've seen situations where otherwise correctly ripped tracks could no longer be verified by AccurateRip.  Finally, this type of error is consistent which means that a pair of matching CRCs are pretty much useless.


OK, but what's the difference? If you enable it and your drive doesn't support this, then EAC would try to overread without success. Probably filling the missing samples with silence (??).
If you disable this option, then it wouldn't try to overread, just filling up some silence according to the offset settings.

Is there any difference at all?

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #6
I think he clearly described the differences.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #7
@ Greynol

As for the AccurateStream feature, it would be better IMO if someone changed  these lines in a way that most people will understand what AccurateStream really means.

Simply put ... a drive capable of AccurateStream will always return the same read offset when a read command for a given address on a given red book CD is issued multiple times. The real reason for is that red book CD's do not feature dedicated sector adresses like yellow book data CD's do.

Jitter in this context isn't real jitter but rather sector desynchronization - 'real' jitter in e.g. digital interconnects describes variations of a given clock signal, hence the jitter measurement in picoseconds or nanoseconds as a statistical standard deviation.

EAC always performs sector alignment by overlapped reading, even if the drive is being checked as capable of accurate streaming ... the only difference is that the overlapped areas in secure mode are smaller compared to sector resync (falsely interpreted as jitter-correction) read mode.
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #8
OK, but what's the difference? If you enable it and your drive doesn't support this, then EAC would try to overread without success. Probably filling the missing samples with silence (??).
If you disable this option, then it wouldn't try to overread, just filling up some silence according to the offset settings.

Is there any difference at all?

As I said earlier...

It's also quite likely that there will be additional missing samples (substituted with silence) that would not have been had the setting not been enabled.  I've seen situations where otherwise correctly ripped tracks could no longer be verified by AccurateRip.

I just tried this to give you one example.  Using a drive that cannot overread with an offset correction of +1858, the number of missing samples with overreading disabled is 1858, the number of missing samples with overreading enabled is 9502.  The number of samples AccurateRip ignores in order to compensate for potential problems is 2940.

Believe it or not (and as silly as it may seem), many people have gone out of their way to buy drives that can overread so there aren't any missing samples after an offset correction has been configured.

So, yes, there is a difference!


@JeanLuc
I was hoping to start a discussion so that people with a higher-level of expertise, such as yourself would contribute.  My "corrections" were just to point out specifically what is wrong or what the end result should be.  The wording I've given is probably inadequate in most cases.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #9
I think he clearly described the differences.


Let's say you enter a positive number for the offset correction and you have this setting checked.  If your drive can't overread into the lead-out and the overread samples on the disc you're ripping aren't null, you'll get an error.


Error? AccurateRip "not accurately ripped", or what?


I just asking this (maybe stupid, sorry) question because I've tried it with some disc on my own. It doesn't matter which setting I choose, I always get the same (AccurateRip) results.
So from my POV, it seems that this settings doesn't matter at all. So what's the reason to activate/deactivate it?


I think that's a general issue: EAC is a complex application, but there's no properly documentation included what happens "under the hood". Due to this, there are wiki articles (or other "sources of information") like these mentioned above. You have to try it on your own or ask the same question again and again in forums like HA.
No offense to Andre, but if there would be a good documentation, which explains all features of EAC (in every detail!), then it would be much easier. Why something like this doesn't exist, despite the fact, that EAC does exist for a few years? He would get any support he would ever need...

Edit: ok, you guys were faster

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #10
Hm, may I suggest the following.

The explanations for the recommended EAC options are held very simple and brief in the backup guide. But all occurences of let's say "Accurate Stream" are turned into a link to an article that explains in detail what this feature is.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #11
Let's say you enter a positive number for the offset correction and you have this setting checked.  If your drive can't overread into the lead-out and the overread samples on the disc you're ripping aren't null, you'll get an error.
Error? AccurateRip "not accurately ripped", or what?
EAC will report a sync error.

I just asking this (maybe stupid, sorry) question because I've tried it with some disc on my own. It doesn't matter which setting I choose, I always get the same (AccurateRip) results.
So from my POV, it seems that this settings doesn't matter at all. So what's the reason to activate/deactivate it?
What is the make and model of your drive?
If it supports overreading then you can disable it without an error given by EAC and it won't affect the result returned by AccurateRip.  If you look around you'll also discover that AccurateRip ignores the first five frames of the first track and the last five frames of the last track in order to compensate for drives that can't overread.

To reiterate, this only matters when ripping discs where overread samples are not null.

I think that's a general issue: EAC is a complex application, but there's no properly documentation included what happens "under the hood". Due to this, there are wiki articles (or other "sources of information") like these mentioned above.
...and it would help if they provided accurate information.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #12
I think that's a general issue: EAC is a complex application, but there's no properly documentation included what happens "under the hood".


exec is right on that point ... I still wait for clarification on the "C2" terminology ...

Is EAC's C2 correctable C2 (thus E12-E22 or E42) or uncorrectable C2 (thus E32/E52 and above or CU in Plextools terminology) ... seven years of using EAC and I still don't know ... ^^
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #13
I don't really think it matters and in this case I think my suggestions are sufficient.  If you think it's important, we can impart additional information while being careful to choose wording that explains why EAC's C2 setting isn't such a good idea without blaming anyone.

In general, I think the information about the C2 setting is pretty good in the wiki EAC Drive Configuration article.

The cache setting on the other hand ...


Should something like the EAC configuration process be repeated in multiple wiki pages?
The explanations for the recommended EAC options are held very simple and brief in the backup guide. But all occurences of let's say "Accurate Stream" are turned into a link to an article that explains in detail what this feature is.

I totally agree, though this may be more work that I wanted to generate.  At a minimum, drive options should be removed from all places except for the most obvious, with all other articles linking to it when needed.


Honestly now, does this lossless backup guide provide any useful information that isn't already contained elsewhere in the wiki???

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #14
It would be superb to see a concerted effort from those in the know to ensure that we have an accurate and comprehensive EAC guide in the HA wiki.

May I recommend that those people who have the expertise PM Jan and request a login for the wiki?  I can edit the wiki, and I'm happy to help, but it is so much easier if those making the suggestions can edit the page(s) themselves.

I tend to agree with Fandango, that the core guide should be kept relatively simple, with links to other pages that cover certain areas, like C2 and caching, in greater detail.  Using this technique the guide will be kept accessible to basic users and those more experienced, without confusing core issues with too much text.
I'm on a horse.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #15
What is the make and model of your drive?

It's a samsung SH-S182D. Offset of -6. Can't find any info on the samsung hp about overreading capabilities.  daefeatures.co.uk says it can overread the lead in (would be useless). If you test the DAE features with Nero CD-DVD Speed, then it says that it can't overread at all. But I don't know if you can trust the results of this program, because it'll tell you that this drive has an offset of 0, which is obviously wrong.
So, are there other possibilities to test the overread capabilities on my own?

If it supports overreading then you can disable it without an error given by EAC and it won't affect the result returned by AccurateRip.  If you look around you'll also discover that AccurateRip ignores the first five frames of the first track and the last five frames of the last track in order to compensate for drives that can't overread.

OK, this was the reason why the AccurateRip results were the same. Thanks for pointing this out.


Let's say you enter a positive number for the offset correction and you have this setting checked.  If your drive can't overread into the lead-out and the overread samples on the disc you're ripping aren't null, you'll get an error.
Error? AccurateRip "not accurately ripped", or what?
EAC will report a sync error.

How will EAC know that the overread samples aren't null if the drive can't overread at all?

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #16
It's a samsung SH-S182D. Offset of -6. Can't find any info on the samsung hp about overreading capabilities.  daefeatures.co.uk says it can overread the lead in (would be useless).
You can test which area your drive can overread from using the EAC's "detect read sample offset correction" routine.

If you test the DAE features with Nero CD-DVD Speed, then it says that it can't overread at all. But I don't know if you can trust the results of this program, because it'll tell you that this drive has an offset of 0, which is obviously wrong.
This is probably the combined offset, which means that you'd use a write samples offset of -6 to go with your read offset correction of +6.

How will EAC know that the overread samples aren't null if the drive can't overread at all?
I don't know that it does, it just returns an error when they aren't null and doesn't return an error when they are.  Does it really matter?

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #17
You can test which area your drive can overread from using the EAC's "detect read sample offset correction" routine.


I have AccurateRip configured and that button's blanked off in EAC, the read sample offset correction is +102, my drive is MATSHITADVD-RAM UJ-851S 1.50 (referred to as Panasonic drives in the AccurateRip website). What other ways are there for checking which area my drive can overread?

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #18
I have AccurateRip configured and that button's blanked off in EAC, the read sample offset correction is +102, my drive is MATSHITADVD-RAM UJ-851S 1.50 (referred to as Panasonic drives in the AccurateRip website). What other ways are there for checking which area my drive can overread?



Just untick "Use AccurateRip with this drive", then then button is enabled.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #19
Thanks for the moderation, JensRex.  I could see no other posts in the wiki forum, so I wasn't sure that it was the right place.
Nah, there haven't been any posts for a while, but IPB only shows posts from the last 30 days per default. There's a dropdown box at the bottom where you can choose to see all posts made in the section.

 
I apologize if you found "Mods" offsensive.
I'm just playing with you.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #20
I have AccurateRip configured and that button's blanked off in EAC, the read sample offset correction is +102, my drive is MATSHITADVD-RAM UJ-851S 1.50 (referred to as Panasonic drives in the AccurateRip website). What other ways are there for checking which area my drive can overread?
Just untick "Use AccurateRip with this drive", then then button is enabled.
...or temporarily remove AccurateRip.dll from your EAC directory if you're using V0.95.  Ok, can we please take the OT EAC help requests elsewhere and move on to the buisness of hopefully improving the wiki?

I'm just playing with you.
I was beginning to think of The Who's Quadrophenia. 

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #21
Ok, can we please take the OT EAC help requests elsewhere and move on to the buisness of hopefully improving the wiki?


OK, to start with, it maybe would be a good idea, that the people, who are willing to participate in the HA-EAC "facelift" agree on a certain structure.

So, beside the fact, that some information is simply wrong in the wiki, imho the structure and linking of all EAC related artiles could be improved. Now there are many articles "how xyz can be done using EAC". All these articles try to explain everything related about xyz and concentrate on only the relevant options. I think we should broaden the view on EAC and it's configuration:
1. Generate a page for EAC configuration
2. For beginners there should be a simple guide (as already mentioned above)
3. Next, there should be articles about all EAC options (let's say one article for every option dialog in EAC). Here the options should be explained in every detail (and correctly, of course ), maybe with some background info.
4. The articles from 2. and 3. then are linked together by the article 1.

The goal should be, that we don't dictate the user how he has to configure all the options, e.g. when he want to create lossless backups, just by saying "tick this option and untick the other". All options should be explained in such a way, that the user is provided by enough background and in-deep information that he can make his own decisions, because he knows that hides behind all these options.
Another side effect would be that we can remove all the redundant or even conflicting information.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #22
Hm...no replies - no good idea? Leave it as it is and only fix the obvious errors? Say something...talk to me.   

I relly would like to help with this, but I'm afraid to mess up something by changing structure/content...

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #23
Yeah, I'm not sure about how best to organize, but I do have a pretty good grasp on what the content should be and how it should be worded.

Concerning beginner/advanced, I think a one-size-fits all approach will be adequate.  EAC isn't rocket science.  It all boils down to providing accurate and concise descriptions using language that is easy to understand.

Regarding the structure/organization, I think we need enough articles to cover all the bases without providing unnecessarily redundant data.  I do like the way the Compression Options are currently being handled (one article per popular codec) but I don't think there should be more than one article that contains drive options or more than one article that contains EAC options.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #24
One of the easiest things to do for the beginner would be screen shots of the correct options (at least the ones that don't vary with the drive.)

One important thing would be to keep the guide updated as quickly as possible when new versions of EAC are released.  This, IMHO, is the weakness of every other guide I've seen.

I like the idea of have individual articles for each option, even if it is just a definition.  Even if it is the SAME definition that is in the EAC tool tip.  I really dislike it when guides only go into more detail on some of the settings.

Another idea, for the drive specific options, would be a flowchart or decision tree.  If EAC determines your drive is C2 capable then do this...

Just my $0.02.

 
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