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Topic: Scientifically cutting through Audiophile claims (phase 1) (Read 21462 times) previous topic - next topic
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Scientifically cutting through Audiophile claims (phase 1)

Reply #50 –
Quote from: Light-Fire on
When I mentioned power cords affecting sound quality I wasn't talking about line noise. There are (lots of) people out there that believe a silver power cord will provide "brighter" high frequency sounds, while a copper cable will provide you "warmer" "well round" bass! 

I know it sounds ridiculous but there are people out there that believe it and are not ashamed to express their opinion.   


Well, that makes no sense. I could see where one power cord could have better internal insulation & shielding, which may mitigate other deficiencies.(as in my case) but that's not the claim. I was thinking RF,  line noise, grounding, poor grounding and power fluctuations could have effects  on a system, some of which might be somewhat subtle and not obviously attributed to the sources. But saying a silver power cord sounds different than a copper one is just silly.
EAC secure | FLAC  --best -V -b 4096 | LAME 3.97 -V0 -q0 -b32

Scientifically cutting through Audiophile claims (phase 1)

Reply #51 –
Quote from: digital on
the only way to get 'audiofools' to cease and desist once and for all would be to place them in a situation where they were:

1) In their own homes
2) Listening to their own systems
3) With their favorite music that they knew intimately
4) In a mood for listening
5) Comfortable and happy

...and get them to listen to whatever cable or tweak they choose, for as long as they choose, in whatever order they select.



That's not far from the conditions of one of the french tests about interconnects. The one of Toulouse, lead by Rorominator on homecinema-fr.com (note that this forum is the home of both subjectivists and objectivists, which allowed for blind tests to take place).
1-In his own home
2-Listening to his own system, including the tested cables (one Ecosse worth 1300 € vs a 2 € standard one).
3-With his favourite music

I'm not sure about points 4 and 5 because some other people came to take part in the test. But none of them was an objectivist come to disprove the claim. And the listening was done in time-limited ABX.

The results ? This listener got 9/20 in ABX.

Another one, among 5, was reported to have done 10/10, which was a significant score, even though it was agreed before the test that only the result of the main listener would be taken into acount (don't ask me the maths that I had to perform in order to include a posteriori an extra score, and all the statistical bias that it implies !).
However, checking the individual answers, it appeared that this was a mistake. His score was 8/10, not 10/10. Statistical bias taken into account, the probability of type I error was 25 % !

A point worth mentionning is the way objectivist deal with subjectivists. The will to disprove false claims itself acts as a brake on the realisation of blind listening tests.
A french association called Observatoire de Zététique has an interesting way of dealing with blind tests (translation is mine) :

"In zetetics, problems are not dealt with through beliefs. We no not say 'I believe', or 'I don't believe'. There is what we know, and what we don't know. We do not substitute beliefs for our ignorance"

"If you want people to listen to you (and maybe change), you have to understand what they are talking about", says Nicolas Vivant

This approach, directed towards investigation rather than debunking, has permitted some blind tests to take place in very good conditions.
Here is, in english, the account of an excellent one, about dowsing : http://www.observatoire-zetetique.org/dive...owsing-2007.pdf

Scientifically cutting through Audiophile claims (phase 1)

Reply #52 –
Quote from: Light-Fire on
Quote from: UrbanVoyeur on

I wonder if many of the differences people claim they hear are not due to the thing they attribute it to (ie silver power cords) but other factors introduced in the testing/switching...


When I mentioned power cords affecting sound quality I wasn't talking about line noise. There are (lots of) people out there that believe a silver power cord will provide "brighter" high frequency sounds, while a copper cable will provide you "warmer" "well round" bass! 

I know it sounds ridiculous but there are people out there that believe it and are not ashamed to express their opinion.   

The reason it sounds ridiculous is because it is.

Two things always amaze me about these kinds of claims:

1) Why is a couple of metres of power cord (just wire after all) able to influence the effects of many kilometres of wire in the power distribution network? Plus of course it always *improves* things, never degrades them.

2) Why do these people shell out large amounts of money on systems where the manufacturer clearly cannot be trusted to make a decent power supply (since it needs this magical power cord)? Personally I'd return a piece of audio gear that was unable to reject supply noise.


Quote from: UrbanVoyeur on
Quote from: Light-Fire on

When I mentioned power cords affecting sound quality I wasn't talking about line noise. There are (lots of) people out there that believe a silver power cord will provide "brighter" high frequency sounds, while a copper cable will provide you "warmer" "well round" bass! 

I know it sounds ridiculous but there are people out there that believe it and are not ashamed to express their opinion.   


Well, that makes no sense. I could see where one power cord could have better internal insulation & shielding, which may mitigate other deficiencies.(as in my case) but that's not the claim. I was thinking RF,  line noise, grounding, poor grounding and power fluctuations could have effects  on a system, some of which might be somewhat subtle and not obviously attributed to the sources. But saying a silver power cord sounds different than a copper one is just silly.

Silver is a better conductor than copper, all things being equal there will be less voltage drop and that could make a difference, in theory at least. However, all things are unlikely to be the same - hopefully each will be suitably rated for the load. This being so you're right, there is unlikely to be a difference. Of course, you've missed the point - the silver one costs far more and MUST, therefore, sound better. Everyone knows that expensive=better, don't they? :-P

Scientifically cutting through Audiophile claims (phase 1)

Reply #53 –
Quote from: antz on
Of course, you've missed the point - the silver one costs far more and MUST, therefore, sound better. Everyone knows that expensive=better, don't they? :-P


How could I have missed that? Darn!  ;-)
EAC secure | FLAC  --best -V -b 4096 | LAME 3.97 -V0 -q0 -b32

Scientifically cutting through Audiophile claims (phase 1)

Reply #54 –
Blindtests and ABX are coherent with my view of the world, and therefore, anyone that knows me could have guessed that I would prefer such tests for hifi even if they didnt know anything about my interest for sound.

I have problems understanding the audiophile crowd in that many present weak arguments against such tests, but what it all comes down to is a strong belief in what they (think) they hear, and using any means of argument that supports that view.

I on the other hand think it is utterly boring that Maxwell, Nyquist etc should be so right 100 years ago. It would really be interesting if my initial views was proven wrong. I think that this openness is nearly never symmetric in that no audiophiles think like that?

-k