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What does "bit perfect" mean to you ?For me, bit-perfectness does not depends on offsets.
[...] then it's just a matter of loosing some samples of background noise and not any real music, unless the mastering engineer has f***** up the mastering process. [...]
I can confirm that the way Ipsedixit calculated his offset is correct and gives an absolute result.He captured the output of the optical sensor in a CD player and stored an image of the pit and lands of a given CD. He then produced a binary version of these pits and lands, then computed all the subcode extraction and audio deinterleaving with a custom software. Then he compared the result with an offset corrected extraction of the same CD.
I don't doubt that his numbers are correct, rather that in practice it doesn't seem to matter.
I never understood this obsession with having a "bit perfect" audio CD copy.
Anyhow, I don't think I'll be able to make a "bit perfect" copy of this disc anytime soon.
1: Is the true offset correction for drives always 30 samples less than now? Does this mean that most Plextors have a 0 samples read offset and that LITE-ONs need a negative read offset correction (meaning that they have to overread from lead-in)?
2: You say that for some audio CDs, the offset is different because different write offsets were used. Isn't the read offset of a drive always constant? What does it have to do with the write offset of a CD? For me, an 1:1 copy of a CD should be 1:1; if a CD has 40 samples of silence because of a write offset, the copy should also have 40 samples of silence, even if the actual audio data does not begin at sample 1.
For what it's worth, I used a method similar to the one described on Pio2001's page. I did it on 74 CDs, the results are here:(...)There is only one number that sticks out to me which is -12
Regarding the concept of skew, is it applicable to IpseDixit's test or is it only applicable to Pio's test?
1: Is the true offset correction for drives always 30 samples less than now?
Does this mean that most Plextors have a 0 samples read offset
In order to get back exactly what was burned or pressed onto the CD, you must rip with exactly the same offset as the one that was used during the burning.
The main problem is that where the audio begins on a CD varies from disc to disc, making true absolute 1:1 extraction a very difficult thing. The read offset is a method to allow your drive to produce results identical to other drives, not the disc itself. The offset proposed by IpseDixit just moves the offset to a position on the disc where audio would begin if the disc was manufactured with absolutely zero skew, which is a pretty rare occurance. The offset calculated by Andre was where he found the audio to begin on most the discs he owned, which were more than likely manufactured with deviation from zero skew, thus making his offset an admitted estimate.In real world practice, no matter which offset you use, Andre's or IpseDixit's, you won't have a perfect 1:1 copy for every disc.
but I want to get the exact data from the CD (like what a reader with a 0 samples read offset would get).
Wondering about one thing... I remember burning a Nero CD/DVD Speed DAE test CD with my LG (that has 0 samples write offset) and tested my Plextor which was reported to have a read offset of 30 samples. How is this possible if the LG has 0 samples write offset? Does this mean that my LG now suddenly has a 30 samples write offset and that the Plextor has 0 samples read offset?
Quote from: greynol on 23 November, 2006, 11:31:55 AMAnyhow, I don't think I'll be able to make a "bit perfect" copy of this disc anytime soon. ...well, not with a single make/model of drive, at least.
The offset calculated by Andre was where he found the audio to begin on most the discs he owned, which were more than likely manufactured with deviation from zero skew, thus making his offset an admitted estimate.
This gives us three theoretical offsets, whose values differ by an amount of 324 samples. The fact that the offset that you found is only 30 samples away from Andre Wiethoff's one (that is itself 6 samples away from mine !) shows that both Andre's result and mine come from nonsensical data.
Quote from: greynol on 23 November, 2006, 11:31:55 AMRegarding the concept of skew, is it applicable to IpseDixit's test or is it only applicable to Pio's test?What do you mean ?
So Nero CD/DVD Speed also relies on EAC's calculation?
It is certainly not possible with Plextor drives that have a write samples offset of -30 (per Andre's reference) using either EAC or Plextools.This means that when using the classic write samples offset of -30, the last 30 samples of any burn will always be null. Simply put, if the last 30 samples of the last track in the source file aren't null they will be lost. Let's say that this same disc also began with samples that aren't null and these samples continued into the lead-in. If you were to use the new offset, you would be able to get an additional 30 non-null samples which you can burn. IOW, shifting the correction by -30 samples will allow a Plextor drive like a PX-760A to reproduce 30 more samples because instead of zero-padding the beginning of the data and prematurely ending at the lead-out which it cannot write beyond, there will be no zero-padding and the end of the data will conincide with the beginning of the lead-out.
If what was said previously regarding the correct read offsets being actually 30 samples off the current figures, this would mean that my Plextor has a 0 samples read offset, but that my LG has a 30 samples write offset.
One more thing - do Plextors have a 0 samples read and write offset, or do they still have a -30 samples write offset?