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Topic: Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks? (Read 43379 times) previous topic - next topic
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Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #25 –
I have an APC Smart-UPS 1500 and it works fine to back up my whole AV setup.  I don't see how Monster Cable / ect. stuff has to cost so much.
PS: I got it from some old guy who does IT in his spare time for 50 bucks. (It's about $500 retail)  He even put a BRAND NEW battery in it for me and if I end up needing more power, he sells 2200s for 75 bucks.  He must freakin' steal those or something.
It's due for a good DEGAUSSIN'

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #26 –
so there is no defense against lightning?

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #27 –
Quote from: gaillard on
so there is no defense against lightning?


Well there is a way to prevent damage to electrical appliances. Don't have any.
Acid8000 aka. PhilDEE

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #28 –
Quote from: cabbagerat on
I won't dignify the degree certificate pissing match.
Quote from: Axon on

If a power conditioner unambiguously improves the sound quality of a component that is designed for "perfect" sound reproduction, the designer of the power supply was incompetent.

Or, alternatively: Any improvement in sound quality caused by a power conditioner can always be equalled by improving the power supply design.


There is another issue here, which you don't really consider. The power supply could have been designed to reject a certain level of noise, harmonic distortion, transients, etc and may peform very well in the lab. If the power at your house is a whole lot worse than that, the power supply will not perform within specs. The cheapest cause of action is to probably whine at your utility/council until they get your terrible power sorted out.


A DC supply sould function correctly regardless of the quality of power in your home.  If it does not, buy one that will.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #29 –
Hello, I just thought I would add some extra information, about PSU regulation etc,  audio & computer applications  do have different requirements ,some are similar. In high end esoteric High fi stuff ,anything goes and some of the ideas are quite bizarre (not wrong just different), it (audio) is still a artform where science helps but is not (current knowledge) always correct but over time science is (eventually) self correcting.
  I have had a failure due to 'too much regulation' in a pc setup , I inadvertidly plugged two  or 3 EI type filters in series and when I turned the the PC on , The switch mode PSU couldn't get enough current on startup to function correctly and blew up.
The swtch mode was a el cheapo version  and I don't know the input voltage at the time (we do have brown outs,undervoltage, where I live)  I think the problem was that switchmodes require enormous current at startup and me with lots of inductive regulation didn't want to supply it. I had noticed once i had a peek inside (PSU) that some of the componets were getting a bit hot prior to the burnout( on the ip to the psu).
Anyway , not being a Switchmode engineer( I just repair the things) This is just a theory at this stage but I now put a decent PC power supply in all my computers and use a  filter with series inductors ferrite cored( on both active & neutral), capacitors across the ip and capacitors to ground  followed by a inexpensive MOV for good measure-you must check these every now & then,they dont work forever.
this is good for 10 amps normal supply(240V) and after that there is usually the usual so called computor regulated plugboard( usually  smaller inductors and a cap or two ,MOV etc), I have found this with a decent PC PSU is most of the time,( I cant afford a decent remote battery powerd Backup)  covers most problems .
Lightning is another thing alltogether- insurance is the best protection for that one,there is  lots of different methods to divert  it and (hopefully) damp down whats gets through-there is no guranteed way for the PC to survive a direct hit especially if the house around it dissappears. well I hope i have confused the situation further(not really) .
end result 
        A good filter not just MOVs, a decent switchmode, OFF SITE  DATA BACKUP and good prayer to whatever God you like    (it can't hurt) bye for now

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #30 –
Quote from: TrueAudio on
Here's some food for thought:

1) How can a power amplifier sound better when it measures thousands of times higher in total harmonic distortion and/or intermodular distortion in comparison to other amplifiers?

Euphonic distortion.
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2) How can cryogenically treating a conductor improve its sound quality?

No way.
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3) How can a piece of vacuum tube gear sound better or worse depending on the brand and vintage of vacuum tubes that you use with the device?  When all a vacuum tube is  is metal, glass, and a partial vacuum?

Euphonic distortion characteristic variations.
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4) How can custom made interconnects (RCA jacks/cables) sound better than the ones from Radio Shack or the ones that came with your gear?

Maybe you could improve a little bit EMI shielding, hardly audible under regular listening conditions, but apart from that, no way, unless your RS cables are broken or very bad quality.
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If you believe that none of these things are in fact quantifiable, legitimate and true examples that actually can be proven by double blind tests, then you sir, can "keep on walking".  While your keeping on walking, I'll be enjoying listening to my music the same before you ever came around, and you can keep living in a world where "If I didn't learn it in class, and if it's not measureable, then it either doesn't exist, is impossible, or is too insignificant or immaterial to warrant my attention".

Do you mean that there is audible acoustical phenomena that is not measurable? Is it paranormal then?
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Because thats the reality with most "scientific types", and that's no skin off my back, nor anyone of the other tens of thousands of people that would challenge your almighty degree clouded by narrow judgement at:

http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html

I know Audio Asylum for years. It's full of technically iliterate people making the most bizarre audio claims that have no scientific basis nor proof. On the other side there are a few really knowledgeable and reliable people that post from time to time, the best example being good old JJ (real JJ).

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #31 –
Quote from: TrueAudio on
If you believe that none of these things are in fact quantifiable, legitimate and true examples that actually can be proven by double blind tests, then you sir, can "keep on walking".  While your keeping on walking, I'll be enjoying listening to my music the same before you ever came around, and you can keep living in a world where "If I didn't learn it in class, and if it's not measureable, then it either doesn't exist, is impossible, or is too insignificant or immaterial to warrant my attention".

IMHO that's a really weird way to say things, because none of that stops us from enjoying and listening to our music ourselves.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #32 –
*whisper* BUMP ABOUT THE LIGHTNING, muhaha =)  I'm paranoid and must know...

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #33 –
Quote from: gaillard on
*whisper* BUMP ABOUT THE LIGHTNING, muhaha =)  I'm paranoid and must know...


Your house needs to be fitted with a very very well grounded lightning arrestor (for AC circuits) at the breaker box:

http://www.deltala.com/general.htm

Nothing will prevent damage from a direct strike of course.

-brendan

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #34 –
Quote from: bhoar on
Quote from: gaillard on
*whisper* BUMP ABOUT THE LIGHTNING, muhaha =)  I'm paranoid and must know...

Nothing will prevent damage from a direct strike of course.

Want to know a great, fool-proof, and FREE was to protect your gear from lightning? Unplug it when thunderstorms are happening!

This will work when the most expensive protection equipment would fail. Even if all the wiring in your house is destroyed, your amp will be ok. Thunderstorms generally give you plenty of warning, but if you think one might take you by surprise, maybe while you sleep, there is a solution. Invest a tiny portion of what a big conditioner or surge arrestor would cost in one of those weather radios that have an alarm during severe weather alerts. Also remember to unplug stuff when you go away on vacation.

Spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on something that can be done in two minutes with a little care and forethought? No thanks. I'll keep doing it the old-fashioned way.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #35 –
Unfortunately, some people run equipment that needs (or they want it) to be on full time.  Servers, tivos, oxygen delivery systems...

The AC lightning surge arrestors I mentioned are < $40.  Proper installation by a professional, of course, will cost substantially more than that.

EDIT: not to say unplugging isn't the right solution *most* of the time.

-brendan

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #36 –
If the lightning strikes directly at your aerial electric cable (the standard installation practice here in my country), the resulting EMP might damage sensitive equipments with inadequate shielding.

If you need protection from EMP, build a Faraday cage around the room

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #37 –
Quote from: pepoluan on
If the lightning strikes directly at your aerial electric cable (the standard installation practice here in my country), the resulting EMP might damage sensitive equipments with inadequate shielding.

If you need protection from EMP, build a Faraday cage around the room


And, if you need protection from both lightning *and* global thermonuclear war, plant your room 300 ft or more below the surface, preferably with hard rock between the room and the surface (to make bunker busters less useful).  Still, make sure your generator has true sine wave output.

Granted, you may find it more necessary to protect against flooding, volcanic gas and molten seepage down there, depending on location.

-brendan

edit:spelling

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #38 –
Quote from: TrueAudio on
Lightning doesn't necessarily follow "the rules" of electricity, Ball Lightning, though extremely rare, probably hasn't got a damn thing to do with where it thinks Earth ground is, it does things that make no scientific sense (i.e. roll around on a carpet, hover in mid air).  To some it has been harmless to them and their home, to others, it has destroyed objects, burned things, and even caused death.



With a degree or (in this case) not you are quite superstitious to be taken seriously.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Light-Fire on
Quote from: TrueAudio on


Lightning doesn't necessarily follow "the rules" of electricity, Ball Lightning, though extremely rare, probably hasn't got a damn thing to do with where it thinks Earth ground is, it does things that make no scientific sense (i.e. roll around on a carpet, hover in mid air).  To some it has been harmless to them and their home, to others, it has destroyed objects, burned things, and even caused death.



With a degree or (in this case) not you are quite superstitious to be taken seriously.

Ball lightning is a real phenomenon, although just what it is is disputed, and every now and then the right conditions are present to cause utterly bizarre electrical madness during storms. But protecting against the loony fringes of physical phenomena isn't tremendously useful, any more than protecting against lava flow. ( for the thermonuclear war survival.)

A question I have: When power is suddenly cut hard, as in a power outage or just switching off a power strip, without a UPS, can that hurt the power supply and electrical components behind it? Ignoring filesystem/flash corruption on electronics.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #40 –
Quote from: foxyshadis on
A question I have: When power is suddenly cut hard, as in a power outage or just switching off a power strip, without a UPS, can that hurt the power supply and electrical components behind it? Ignoring filesystem/flash corruption on electronics.


That depends upon whether the device was engineered to handle that.  I would suspect that 99.99% of AC electrical devices are engineered to handle this situation x million times in lab tests. e.g. consumer electronics power supplies.  In fact, most of them integrate this into their power on/power off strategy.

One thing they may not handle well is unexpected power flickers.  A flicker changes the assumptions on inrush/outrush currents and dissipation of power.  A power flicker could, essentially, mimic pulsed DC if it was timed right, which could lead to the power supply's L/C networks, etc. being forced to attempt storage of more energy than they were engineered to handle, or allow the discharge of such energy into other circuits that weren't engineered to handle it.

When the power goes out, I believe most power supplies dissipate any stored energy back into the lines.  Since on a power strip, the units are all, essentially, connected in parallel (even with the switch off) it's possible some devices might be dissipating an uncontrolled surge into the others when the strip switch is turned off.  I suppose it depends upon whether the switch controls hot, hot+neutral or (unlikely) hot+neutral+ground, and how the devices are engineered.

For the latter reason, in my opinion it is best to turn off each device on it's own, and not regularly depend on the power strip button.  Perhaps a bit superstitious, but there it is.

-brendan

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #41 –
Quote from: foxyshadis on
A question I have: When power is suddenly cut hard, as in a power outage or just switching off a power strip, without a UPS, can that hurt the power supply and electrical components behind it? Ignoring filesystem/flash corruption on electronics.
If you cut it with a switch, the thing should be fine. It's probably better to use the device's own power switch, but most devices are designed to handle this nicely. In the case of black or brownouts, the transition between "on" and "off" is much less clear cut and the odd waveform, transients and other crap on the power in these circumstances can cause damage. If blackouts are a problem where you live, then a UPS might be a good option.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #42 –
Ok, so correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've gathered from all of this discussion is that:

1.   a UPS is probably the best thing to get for your computer.
2.   a robust power conditioner (like the zero surge that TrueAudio loves so much) would probably be better than a UPS for your av gear (amplifier, receiver, dvd player, TV, etc.).
3.   and just using a cheap little MOV power strip (with a light that goes out when it dies to indicate it needs replacement) should be sufficient as long as you don’t have several thousands of dollars invested in gear that you are desperately in need of protection for.

Ok so if I am correct with those assumptions, here’s what else I’d like to know:  At what price range would you expect to start finding some pretty decent UPS units that work very well for just your computer protection.  Is a $125 unit crap, or is it good?  Should I expect to find a good one for no less than $300?  Or more?  At what price range would I be getting out of the cheapo junk marked and into the quality range of products that do their job well.  And any suggested models?

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #43 –
Haha... speaking of price, here in my country we have a locally-designed-and-made UPS that retails only for $70... and kicked the asses of far more expensive US-made UPSes (priced at least twice as expensive).

You may have to rely on technical reviews.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #44 –
Interesting discussion. However, while the mention of peoples degrees is interesting, it actually doesn't bring much to the discussion in the way of proof. I would rather see links to experiments, studies, etc, and excerpts from books on the matters being discussed. Break out the data! Break out the textbook quotations! Perhaps I'm alone, but I'd love to see this discussion dive into the details  (and I appreciate the bit that's already been explored here).

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #45 –
(my first post, I hope I am not stepping on anybody's toes or anything)

I am surprised by the fact that many people in this thread are recommending expensive UPSs for home AV equipment. Do you really insist on playing your HiFi during once-a-year 15 minutes power outages ?

UPSs can cause all kinds of ground loop problems, add harmonics to the power supply AC when operating, have batteries that need to be periodically checked and eventually replaced (more $), take up even more space, don't look particularly good (very low WAF), most of the time produce a noticeable hum (even when idle) and for any reasonable amount of power, will add a considerable cost to your already expensive AV equipment. And represent one more P.O.F. (point of failure) in your system. Thanks, but no thanks. 

I would recommend any reasonable quality power strip with transient protection (and unplug it from the wall during lightning storms). APC* makes reasonably-priced power strips (starting around USD 10) and I think they are just fine for AV hardware. 

Save the money you would spend on a useless piece of hardware and buy a better amp/receiver/pair of speakers/ipod/whatever.

*Note: not connected to APC or anything.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #46 –
Quote from: smthmlk on
Break out the data! Break out the textbook quotations!
Here's one, from "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill (an excellent book, by the way, if a bit dated), talking about MOVs.
Quote
Putting a transient supressor across the ac power makes good sense in a piece of electronic equipment, not only to prevent inductive spike interference to other nearby instruments but also to prevent occasional large power-line spikes from damaging the instrument itself.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #47 –
Quote from: foxyshadis on
...
A question I have: When power is suddenly cut hard, as in a power outage or just switching off a power strip, without a UPS, can that hurt the power supply and electrical components behind it? Ignoring filesystem/flash corruption on electronics.


Switching off a power strip will not damage any electrical component in your computer. However, everytime you switch on your computer, there is a current surge as the larger electrolytic capacitors charge (just like in any AV amplifier, or any electronic appliance with big electrolytic capacitors). Power supplies are usually specified for a certain number of on/off cycles, so turning on/off any electronic equipment repeatedly will eventually lead to its demise. Modern ATX computer power supplies actually do not get turned off completely, so as to minimize the number of occurences of current surges.

Also, it may happen that after a power outage, when power returns, the voltage at the outlet may exceed the standard 120V/240V. These short voltage peaks may damage your computer power supply, if it is not protected by a UPS.

The first thing you should do at home after a power outage begins (before power returns) is unplug all your electronic appliances - or just switch off your power strips. Low power electronic appliances (e.g. a clock radio) are quite robust with regards to these voltage peaks, most computer power supplies are not, and with expensive A/V equipment I wouldn't take a chance either.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #48 –
^^ Thats less of an issue in 120v countries since almost all supplies are dual 120/240 anyway, and you're unlikely to spike to 300+ v without a lightening strike.  I don't know how it works in 240v countries though.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #49 –
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
^^ Thats less of an issue in 120v countries since almost all supplies are dual 120/240 anyway, and you're unlikely to spike to 300+ v without a lightening strike.  I don't know how it works in 240v countries though.
I disagree. A lot of transients peak up to 4kV - the extra 120V won't really make a difference. Granted, these transients generally are very short and hence contain very little energy, so they don't often cause damage.