Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks? (Read 43382 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Hi,

Any electrical engineers on this forum? I have a question for you:

I have seen some ads for products that cost hundreds of dollars that protect against surges and are supposed to "condition" the power coming out of the wall before it goes into your stereo, computer, other audio components, etc.

Now what I want to know is if there is any real need to buy products like these:

http://www.psaudio.com/products/quintet_power_center.asp

http://www.apc.com/products/category.cfm?id=15


Or should I just stick with a good old $20 power strip and surge protector.  I do know that really cheap ($5 or $10) power strips are crappy because of their limited wattage capabilities, but really, is there any need to invest in a power strip that costs hundreds of dollars? 

PS Audio claims that other, cheaper products do not truly protect against a true power surge but instead protect only against power spikes.. is that true? Sounds like bull to me.

So if you know anything about electrical engineering, I'd appreciate your comments.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #1 –
A couple of good articles from Dan's Data:
http://www.dansdata.com/gz039.htm
http://www.dansdata.com/sbs9.htm

I think an expensive power strip is not likely to be any better than a cheap one. Unless it actually says "silicon avalanche diodes" on it -- which I only learned about from the above DD articles, and have never seen on any consumer surge protector.

If you do buy a power conditioner, don't buy it from some audiophile company, or you will get ripped off. Buy something like this: an ugly beige box with a big transformer in it. That's the thing that does the real work in a power conditioner.

Everything else that the companies put in bulleted lists sprinkled liberally 'TM' marks is extraneous bulls--t that they use to sell you the same thing in a brushed aluminum housing for three times the price.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #2 –
Yes, a UPS is recommended.  Find one that can delivery the power range your equipment could conceivably pull.  I recommend avoiding the low end UPSs and you still save hundreds off of the audiophile power equipment.  And if you have older/vintage gear, find one that claims to output a pure sine wave ("True sine wave output") instead of stepped output, as older audio equipment can sometimes have trouble with the stepped output from typical UPSs.

-brendan

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: treeninja on
I have seen some ads for products that cost hundreds of dollars that protect against surges and are supposed to "condition" the power coming out of the wall before it goes into your stereo, computer, other audio components, etc.
Some actually does. See the other replies.

Quote
http://www.psaudio.com/products/quintet_power_center.asp
Real 'sonic' improvement? Crystalline filters? 'Unimpeded' AC power flow? WTF are those craps? Sounds like audiofool equipment to me...

Quote
http://www.apc.com/products/category.cfm?id=15
What I like about APC is that they do not overstate their capabilities like ... that crap above. I use APC UPS'es, they're good. What's the difference between these 'AV' UPSes and standard APC UPS'es, provided they both provide Sine-Wave output?

Quote
Or should I just stick with a good old $20 power strip and surge protector.  I do know that really cheap ($5 or $10) power strips are crappy because of their limited wattage capabilities, but really, is there any need to invest in a power strip that costs hundreds of dollars?
Invest in a good UPS with good ground connection. A UPS is usually much more robust than mere surge protector.

Quote
PS Audio claims that other, cheaper products do not truly protect against a true power surge but instead protect only against power spikes.. is that true? Sounds like bull to me.
Agree.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #4 –
Quote
Or should I just stick with a good old $20 power strip and surge protector.  I do know that really cheap ($5 or $10) power strips are crappy because of their limited wattage capabilities, but really, is there any need to invest in a power strip that costs hundreds of dollars?


"good ol $20 power strip" = garbage, throw it away and never buy another one again like that, ever. 

Quote
PS Audio claims that other, cheaper products do not truly protect against a true power surge but instead protect only against power spikes.. is that true? Sounds like bull to me.


PS Audio is lying through their teeth, and you are correct in not buying into their PR campaign/marketing propaganda.  I've had the solution I am using for 7 years, through SEVERE thunderstorms that have

--PS Audio sucks a$$ and is a rip off; what they've done essentially is creating an unneccesarily extremely complex way of dealing with a simple problem.  Their approach is ostensibly, a power amplifier used to convert your AC to DC then back to AC.  Inneficient, and making for one very expensive radiator in your home, not to mention that anything that generates a lot of heat, cannot last as long as something that produces almost no heat.

Quote
So if you know anything about electrical engineering, I'd appreciate your comments.



Hello, I am an expert in this area (not officially, but I am nonetheless).  I have over 10 years of experience with high end audio, and power conditioning.  I do not have a degree in electronics, but a strong background in it out of hobby, and alot of firsthand experience.  So many sentences I need to comment on that have been posted here, I will take them one at a time:

Quote
I think an expensive power strip is not likely to be any better than a cheap one.


100% False, Untrue

Here's your inexpensive powerstrips: http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movsres.html


Quote
Unless it actually says "silicon avalanche diodes" on it -- which I only learned about from the above DD articles, and have never seen on any consumer surge protector.


SI diodes would cost thousands of dollars if a circuit was made utilizing them for a 15AMP 120 volt circuit, thats why you don't see them in consumer products.  This is completely a non-issue however, as the massive air-core inductor within a ZeroSurge series mode surge filter is just as "bulletproof" as silicon avalanche diodes, and also does not deteriorate from exposure to high energy transiet disturbances unlike EVERY other device you could possibly buy in any store anywhere, including UPS's.


Quote
If you do buy a power conditioner, don't buy it from some audiophile company, or you will get ripped off.


100% Correct and true

Quote
Buy something like this: an ugly beige box with a big transformer in it. That's the thing that does the real work in a power conditioner.


In some power conditioners --not all, some use 100% capacitors to filter the power, others use inductor coils in conjunction with them, there are other implementations as well.

Quote
Everything else that the companies put in bulleted lists sprinkled liberally 'TM' marks is extraneous bulls--t that they use to sell you the same thing in a brushed aluminum housing for three times the price.


100% true again, I agree

Quote
Yes, a UPS is recommended. Find one that can delivery the power range your equipment could conceivably pull. I recommend avoiding the low end UPSs and you still save hundreds off of the audiophile power equipment. And if you have older/vintage gear, find one that claims to output a pure sine wave ("True sine wave output") instead of stepped output, as older audio equipment can sometimes have trouble with the stepped output from typical UPSs.


Well, in my opinion, an UPS is only necessary for someone who is running a business who is frequently working on important data that cannot be subject to loss through power failure.  In the case of a large business, obviously multiple redundant power supplies would be utilized, enough to keep the entire network up for several hours.  You CANNOT trust the surge protection circuitry in an UPS however.  Use the solution linked below in conjunction with an UPS (plug the UPS into the Series Mode Surge Filter--not the wall directly--the Zerosurge unit goes into the wall directly (if you want an UPS, I havent used one in 7 years and have never had data loss due to a power outage, mostly because the power almost NEVER goes out where I live).



http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/sitemap.html

How does Zerosurge work in a nutshell?


  1. Strong, fast surge current comes from wall receptacle into Zero Surge unit.
  2. The inductor inside our unit acts as a grid, slowing down and decreasing the surge current.
  3. The smaller, slower surge is then sent to a capacitor which acts as a garbage can.
  4. When first capacitor (3) is filled with surge current, any residual current is directed to 2 additional capacitirs (garbage cans). This restricts the duration of the surge.
  5. The current is then slowly released to the neutral wire, avoiding any ground wire contamination.

I have a 20AMP 2 outlet version of the Zerosurge device, I unhesitatingly paid $240.00 for it (by the way, they do NOT come with BS propaganda "connected equipment warranties" like many companies do, they don't need to warranty your equipment, because the device WORKS.

By the way, series mode devices are the only type of circuit other that silicon avalanche diode that can effectively protect a switched mode powersupply of a computer -all MOV devices in the world, cannot effectively do this.  If you want an explanation as to exactly why this is -contact the CEO of ZeroSurge.  Noone in the world that owns a PC should be without this device, especially since computers are substantially more sensitive and vulnerable than TV's, stereos etc.

http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/aboutres.html
J. Rudy Harford, President and Chief Engineer

"Mr. Harford currently holds 45 U.S. and over 300 worldwide patents, many of which were developed during his career as a senior electronics engineer at RCA for nearly 25 years."

Edit: Fixed quotes. - Gambit

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #5 –
Sigh, looks like my use of the quote feature didn't work at all, oh well.

Just noticed I forgot the rest of my sentence in one of the paragraphs: "I've had the solution I am using for 7 years, through SEVERE thunderstorms that have knocked out electronics in homes adjacent to mine, but my PC remained unharmed (I've had lights blown out in my house during a storm when my computer was on also)".

I've never had a hardware failure in my current PC which I've had for 4 years which is powered on 24 hours a day 7 days a week.  I also have extremely low line noise that I have measured, vs. VERY high line noise without the Zerosurge device.  Line noise alone can cause unexplainable computer glitches.  Take a digital electronics course at your local college and you can prove this for yourself.

When you understand the underlying technology involved, and understand how electricity works, and ways in which it can damage circuitry, you'll stop believing the hype of all these other companies trying to sell things for thousands of dollars, you will learn the truth.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #6 –
When it comes to power conditioners, there are three types. The cheapest are surge protectors, which just use one of a variety of devices (probably avalanche diodes, which are bit like Zener diodes, with different physics) to reject high voltage transients. Next up are line-interactive UPSs - which don't generally respond fast enough to reject transients.

The first of the good ones (for high availability applications) are offline UPSs, which rectify, charge a battery and invert. These can reject both high voltage transients, noise and dropouts - but generally have rather bad output waveforms, so you don't want to drive an AC motor from them. UPSs, of course, have the advantage of making offline power available. Finally you have ferroresonant conditioners. These guys can reject transients, have great output condition but are extremely heavy and bulky and don't supply offline power for very long (a couple of ms, at most).

For your HiFi stuff, I would buy a good surge protector (the kind with a light which tells you when the clamps have failed). If you have really bad power in your area a ferroresonant conditioner might be needed, but don't be taken in by the claims of conditioner sellers - the power has to be truly truly awful before it will be audible on well designed equipment.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: TrueAudio on
I've never had a hardware failure in my current PC which I've had for 4 years which is powered on 24 hours a day 7 days a week.  I also have extremely low line noise that I have measured, vs. VERY high line noise without the Zerosurge device.  Line noise alone can cause unexplainable computer glitches.  Take a digital electronics course at your local college and you can prove this for yourself.


Please explain what you mean by "line noise"? Do you mean deviations or distortions from the ideal power waveform (harmonic distortion), or high voltage transients? Do you get dropouts which are longer than about 1/4 cycle (12.5ms)? Please explain, using your knowledge of electronics, how it is possible to remove harmonic distortion in a power device without using very large, very heavy transformers (or rectification and inversion).

The next statement - that line noise can cause computer glitches is also interesting. If by "line noise" you mean transients or dropouts then yes, line noise can cause problems and damage hardware.

While some of the claims made on the zerosurge site are valid (like how badly most varistor based surge protectors are made), a lot of the rest of it is a load. For example - the explanation you posted with grids and dustbins is completely incomprehensible. That doesn't mean the technology doesn't work - but you need to be immediately suspicious of anybody who explains their technology with such a level of handwaving and BS. A more technical introduction would be interesting and possibly enlightening, but I am very skeptical based on that information.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #8 –
All that I know is that it is a PSU's task to maintain a steady direct current (free of surges, bursts and spikes) for any electronic device (be it computer or audio equipment) ...

Unfortunately, not every PSU is up to its own specs in real life ... to use clear words, some of the PSU's sold and used are crappy. If they weren't, there would be no need for fancy extra devices like power conditioners and such.

Having some sort of capable overvoltage protection is a nice thing and can never hurt ... but filtering out harmonic distortion or noise (which is technically possible by using steep band-pass or notch filters) on a power line with high wattage would require some serious hardware and create additional problems like phase shifting between voltage and current.
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: TrueAudio on
Quote
I think an expensive power strip is not likely to be any better than a cheap one.

100% False, Untrue

Here's your inexpensive powerstrips: http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movsres.html
Mmm, yep, I was exaggerating. But by "powerstrips" I mean any of the general class of long plastic bars with outlets on them, that you can buy in regular stores. They all use MOV fuses, it's just a question of build quality. I wouldn't trust *any* MOV based surge protector in a real lightning strike, $5 cheapo or Monster technobabble special. From most of your post, I guess you'd agree with that.

Of course, as the scorch marks on the pictures you linked show, the $5 cheapo might burn down your house.  It's probably to spend a little extra money for something with reasonable build quality. But I use powerstrips because I need more outlets, not because I think they protect my gear.

Quote
SI diodes would cost thousands of dollars if a circuit was made utilizing them for a 15AMP 120 volt circuit, thats why you don't see them in consumer products.  This is completely a non-issue however, as the massive air-core inductor within a ZeroSurge series mode surge filter is just as "bulletproof" as silicon avalanche diodes, and also does not deteriorate from exposure to high energy transiet disturbances unlike EVERY other device you could possibly buy in any store anywhere, including UPS's.
Yep, that's the kind of power device I was trying to stear the OP to. If you want real protection, get something with real blocking ability.

Quote
In some power conditioners --not all, some use 100% capacitors to filter the power, others use inductor coils in conjunction with them, there are other implementations as well.
I think ferroresonant transformers are pretty common, and they're pretty cheap to buy (though shipping is a b---h). The problem is if you've hooked up high-powered gear, a transformer is going to waste a bunch of extra watts all the time.

---
Quote from: TrueAudio on
Just noticed I forgot the rest of my sentence in one of the paragraphs: "I've had the solution I am using for 7 years, through SEVERE thunderstorms that have knocked out electronics in homes adjacent to mine, but my PC remained unharmed (I've had lights blown out in my house during a storm when my computer was on also)".

I've never had a hardware failure in my current PC which I've had for 4 years which is powered on 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
Just so you know, it's actually quite difficult to kill a PC with power surges. Switchmode PSUs are extraordinarily resistant to them, and just about the worst you can do is kill the PSU itself. They all have a transformer in them that electrically isolates the rest of the computer from the input -- there is no direct path from the wall socket to the interior of the computer. Of course you can burn out the psu, but that's easy to replace. Most times that people think their computers have been killed by lightning, it's just the psu and they throw out a perfectly good pc instead of a $50 part. Either that or the lightning path is through the modem...

It's too bad about audio gear; they mostly uses switchmode PSUs as well, but they aren't replaceable.

Quote
I also have extremely low line noise that I have measured, vs. VERY high line noise without the Zerosurge device.  Line noise alone can cause unexplainable computer glitches.  Take a digital electronics course at your local college and you can prove this for yourself.
Unlikely. The same thing that makes a PSU a good lightning shield also makes it a good filter of noise, small spikes or brownouts, and other power uglyness. If you need a power conditioner for your PC, you either live in a factory district or non-1st world country, or else you need to buy a better quality PSU.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: cabbagerat on
When it comes to power conditioners, there are three types. The cheapest are surge protectors, which just use one of a variety of devices (probably avalanche diodes, which are bit like Zener diodes, with different physics) to reject high voltage transients.


Not "probably" avalanche diodes, no one produces a consumer product that uses these for a 15 amp or greater circuit.  If you find one, post a link to it here, I'd be very interested in seeing it.  But I know the cost would be more than almost anyone would be willing to pay even if such a device were available.  (NOTE SI diodes ARE READILY used in LOW voltage data line applications such as those employed by many (if not all) telephone companies to provide in line surge protection of critical communication infrastructure --and here we are talking like 5 volts with milliamperes of current).

What they (consumer surge protectors, even the multi hundred dollar ones made by Monster Cable/Power) in fact, definitely use is MOV's -Metal Oxide Varistors


Quote
For your HiFi stuff, I would buy a good surge protector (the kind with a light which tells you when the clamps have failed).


Why not just employ something that DOESN'T fail, instead of something that tells you when it has failed?  A lot of good this does when your on vacation away from home/business, and it happens to fail when your gone.  Not even that, who the hell wants to bother having to look at an LED on a powerstrip periodically just to make sure that their connected equipment is still "safe"?  That's a ridiculous, unneccesary risk and inconvenience.

Quote
Please explain, using your knowledge of electronics, how it is possible to remove harmonic distortion in a power device without using very large, very heavy transformers (or rectification and inversion).


Harmonic Distortion and line noise are 2 different things.  Line noise is EMI (Electromagnetic Interference, and RFI, Radio Frequency Interference)  these do not require a transformer AT ALL to remove, capacitors alone can filter line noise rather significantly.  Harmonic Distortion should never be a problem, it always exists to some degree, if it was severe enough (something that would result in a clipped sine wave, far outside of its specifications, (as could be seen on an occilloscope), it could be something that is correctable by your power company, such as demanding that they inspect the transformer providing power to your residence, and/or replacing it, or just providing you with a dedicated line if it was that important to you.

Quote
- but you need to be immediately suspicious of anybody who explains their technology with such a level of handwaving and BS. A more technical introduction would be interesting and possibly enlightening, but I am very skeptical based on that information.


That verbiage is there I presume to help non-technically oriented individuals get some kind of grasp as to what is happening.  Just because someone is willing to spend a few hundred dollars for a surge protector doesn't imply that they must be technically savvy to be making such a purchase.  That's the first time I've ever seen that posted on their site, as I have looked at it several times over the past few years, having had placed several orders with them.

Quote
All that I know is that it is a PSU's task to maintain a steady direct current (free of surges, bursts and spikes) for any electronic device (be it computer or audio equipment) ...


That's a laudable "goal", but it's a pipe dream, and even if that WERE POSSIBLE, it is NOT as SAFE as having a protection device OUTSIDE of your sensitive electronics, even Underwriters Laboratories would attest to that.  And there's no way under hell any PC power supply is going to have physical room to properly implement a surge filter that serves a real world purpose other than marketing BS to put their PSU on the cover of Maximum PC or on several hardware websites review top 5 list.

Any PSU that says it has this --I can think of one by the way, PCPowercooling, is still using Metal Oxide Varistors, which are not reliable, will have a higher let through voltage than a properly designed external series mode filter.  They also have a higher response time, 1 nanosecond is INFINITELY SLOWER than INSTANTANEOUS.  An MOV is a SWITCH, a massive inductor coil is not, and doesn't have to be "turned on" so to speak, or be triggered, based on a pre-set voltage "knee" set by the amount of semiconductor material (i.e. SIZE) of the individual MOV's and/or the number of MOV's employed in a device.

Quote
Having some sort of capable overvoltage protection is a nice thing and can never hurt ...


ZeroSurge doesn't provide "Overvoltage protection", why?  because that requires ACTIVE circuitry that monitors the RMS voltage and steps it down with a transformer.  Sustained overvoltage that would be severe enough to begin damaging equipment from my experience would be extremely, incredibly rare.  What companies that tout overvoltage protection are not telling you is that ALL modern electronic equipment is built to be able to run on a rather wide RMS voltage input, without damage, IN MOST CASES.  THIS is specifically something that is in place in modern, quality PC power supplies, it is called "PFC" or Power Factor Correction, and it works as advertised.  My current power supply, an Enermax 465, has Power Factor Correction.  PFC IS NOT surge/spike protection, it is regulation.

Quote
but filtering out harmonic distortion or noise (which is technically possible by using steep band-pass or notch filters) on a power line with high wattage would require some serious hardware and create additional problems like phase shifting between voltage and current.


False --See above (1st off, noone would know if HD was even a problem unless you obtained an oscilloscope and looked at your AC sine wave in your home, and IF it was an issue, call your power company, end of subject on that.).  Secondly, again, line noise is easily removed with a choke coil/capacitors, and yes, isolation transformers will do the samed thing.  Line noise can be filtered "in parallel", as well as in series, just fyi.  There are devices that will remove noise just by plugging them into the same circuit as the rest of your equipment, WITHOUT even having that equipment plugged into that device.  Although this fact really has nothing to do with the issue at hand, I'm just pointing it out to show you that I know what the hell I'm talking about.

Quote
Just so you know, it's actually quite difficult to kill a PC with power surges. Switchmode PSUs are extraordinarily resistant to them, and just about the worst you can do is kill the PSU itself. They all have a transformer in them that electrically isolates the rest of the computer from the input -- there is no direct path from the wall socket to the interior of the computer.


Do you have a surge generator in your home where you've purposely, repeatedly tried to fry PC PSU's to verify your claim?  Post some photpgraphs and some oscilloscope traces if you have, please.  Show me a computer PSU that can handle even just one surge of 3000 AMPS, 6000 Volts, that is capable of stopping the tremendous arcing, (or even just the let-through voltage/current) which would ensue inside the case, and likely damage the rest of the PC. 

Quote
It's too bad about audio gear; they mostly uses switchmode PSUs as well, but they aren't replaceable.


False - almost ALL high audio gear (ok you got me here, I'm not sure about LOW end crap, because I don't delve into it) uses LINEAR power supplies, NOT SWITCHING, because switched mode supplies are incredibly noisy, and totally unsuitable for high end audio applications.  There are only two applications in which I am aware of where switching power supplies are used in audio *sometimes*:  1) PA amplifiers (Professional sound reinforcement electronics) and 2) CLASS D switching amplifiers such as that used in some subwoofer designs.

Quote
Unlikely. The same thing that makes a PSU a good lightning shield also makes it a good filter of noise, small spikes or brownouts, and other power uglyness. If you need a power conditioner for your PC, you either live in a factory district or non-1st world country, or else you need to buy a better quality PSU.


Here's an analogy to illustrate the futility of "The same thing that makes a PSU a good lightning shield"-- "The same thing that makes an automobile a good car crash shield".  Sorry, there's a good chance you'll die in a car crash, and it's far better to prevent one from happening, rather than relying on your car/seatbelt/airbags to keep you from dying upon impact.

For one thing, even if the only risk was to your power supply, why would you rather have to tear your PC apart (sorry all my wires are HIGHLY organized, something which took me awhile to do, to get perfectly optimized for airflow inside the case, I have no desire to EVER do that again, unless I was building myself a new PC) when your PSU blows, when you can prevent it from blowing in the 1st place?

Secondly, there's no law of physics that states that electricity MUST BLOW a supply outright, how about wear and tear?  How about WEAKENING of the circuitry over time, causing small amounts of damage over time, perhaps even altering the original operating specs of the PSU, to the extent that that alone, might then damage your motherboard, or hard drive, or CPU?  Got news for you, excessive, sudden, electrical transients cause circuits to become extremely hot, even if just for a few milliseconds, this is all it takes for damage to be sustained to any electronics, whether you realize it or not.  Your statement that PSU's are just about the only thing that fails is based on what again?  Hard drives are often damaged from surges and spikes, thats one of the reasons they fail prematurely and without explanation, even quality drives like Seagate.

Playing devils advocate here; you talking about how all people need to do is buy a better PSU:  Lets wake up and get real, probably 95% of all people don't BUILD PC'S because they're too stupid and computer illiterate to do so, their businessmen, doctors, construction workers, police officers, school teachers, politicians, airline pilots etc that don't have time to learn how the hell to build a PC, so just like most other people, they buy a PC from a mass market manufacturer like HP, DELL, Sony, Toshiba, IBM --ALL WHO USE ***CRAP. GARBAGE P.O.S.*** POWER SUPPLIES WHICH DON'T EVEN IMPLEMENT POWER FACTOR CORRECTION MUCH LESS ANY SO-CALLED "SURGE PROTECTION INSIDE THE PSU".  Call Underwriters Laboratories and ask them why spike and surge protection devices aren't built into television sets, when you get the answer from them, come back here and post the reason they gave you.

Your statement isn't going to reach but a handful of people, and of those it does reach, I seriously doubt its going to inspire them to go out and try to buy a quality power supply like PC powercooling, Enermax, or OCZ or some other brand and try to replace the one in their DELL OR HP COMPUTER.  I can just see the call to tech support now, with the tech wondering why in the hell the customer is replacing their PSU.  Who am I to talk?  I used to work for Dell.  Also, if you had the wherewithal to build your own PC in the firstplace, and weren't aware of the importance of buying a very high quality PSU, then you are ignorant, and deserve whatever problems your computer presents to you.

I'm here reinforcing most everyones belief here in avoiding thousand dollar plus units like PS Audio, and rather offering a solution that can be had for 240 dollars or LESS, that I personally know works, and people are scrambling back and holding onto their "pet 20 dollar surge protector" out of fear that they will suddenly become a sucker. 

Surge Protectors, power conditioners I have owned in the last 12 years:

APC
Tripp Lite
Panamax Max 1000+
Monster Power HTS 5000
Tice Audio Solo AV power conditioner x2 (MOV derivative based, using a device called "ZNR's") $465.00 each
Tice Audio Video Power Conditioner "VPC"  - $575.00
PowerVAR ABC1200-11 12 AMP isolation transformer/with MOV's
Brickwall 8RAUD15 (made by ZeroSurge --ZeroSurge is the OEM)
Pomethean PowerFLO (currently in use in conjunction with ZS, to filter INTER component noise, i.e. noise generated by the electronics themselves that is fed back onto the powerline that it is plugged into.)
ZeroSurge 2R20
ZeroSurge 2R20 with Spectrum WVR (supercedes previous one which I gave away to a friend)

The ZS unit has superceded all the previous ones, I have yet to find a reason to replace it, nothing that I know of is better, at any price range, that is available to consumers.

You want additional 3rd party viewpoints on Zerosurge?  do a search for them here

http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html

Why do I have all those other surge protectors?  its called experimentation, mostly due to exploring sonic differences with the units, in later years.  If your using a ZS for audio, get the 20 amp version, not going to bother trying to explain why, because many wouldn't believe me if I did, so not gonna waste my time.

People I have talked to/consulted with regarding surge protection technology and effectiveness:

Paul McGowan, CEO of PS Audio
George Tice, CEO of Tice Audio Products (been out of business for years)
Rudy Harford, CEO of Zerosurge
An exhibitor of Panamax at a Consumer Electronics show in Las Vegas Nevada some years ago

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: TrueAudio on
That's a laudable "goal", but it's a pipe dream, and even if that WERE POSSIBLE, it is NOT as SAFE as having a protection device OUTSIDE of your sensitive electronics, even Underwriters Laboratories would attest to that.  And there's no way under hell any PC power supply is going to have physical room to properly implement a surge filter that serves a real world purpose other than marketing BS to put their PSU on the cover of Maximum PC or on several hardware websites review top 5 list.
They don't have inductors, they have a transformer. Some of the same benefits. It isolates the rest of the pc from direct electrical contact with mains,

Quote
ZeroSurge doesn't provide "Overvoltage protection", why?  because that requires ACTIVE circuitry that monitors the RMS voltage and steps it down with a transformer.  Sustained overvoltage that would be severe enough to begin damaging equipment from my experience would be extremely, incredibly rare.  What companies that tout overvoltage protection are not telling you is that ALL modern electronic equipment is built to be able to run on a rather wide RMS voltage input, without damage, IN MOST CASES.  THIS is specifically something that is in place in modern, quality PC power supplies, it is called "PFC" or Power Factor Correction, and it works as advertised.  My current power supply, an Enermax 465, has Power Factor Correction.  PFC IS NOT surge/spike protection, it is regulation.
Very wrong, this is one of the more persistent myths about PSUs. I've even seen pro review websites get this wrong. PFC has nothing to do with the computer side of the power supply, only with the exterior power. What PFC does is make the power factor of the computer closer to 1, ie closer to an ideally resistive load. Standard PSUs have very bad power factor, which means they are a hassle for the electric company. Large customers get additional bills beyond actual watts consumed if they have bad power factor. If you have a big office building with 1000s of pcs, this can be significant. For the home user, PFC has absolutely no effect other than making the PSU slightly less efficient than it would be without PFC.


Quote
Do you have a surge generator in your home where you've purposely, repeatedly tried to fry PC PSU's to verify your claim? Post some photpgraphs and some oscilloscope traces if you have, please. Show me a computer PSU that can handle even just one surge of 3000 AMPS, 6000 Volts, that is capable of stopping the tremendous arcing, (or even just the let-through voltage/current) which would ensue inside the case, and likely damage the rest of the PC.
PSUs have fuses. They're slow-blow so I don't know what would actually happen if you hit it with that much power. They won't stop a close lightning strike.

But IMHO these types or ultra-high power surges are extremely rare. Lightning very rarely goes into power lines, because they're insulated from the ground. I'm not worried. I'd also like to know exactly what the test conditions for the 6kV 3k amp test were. I presume you're talking about zerosurge again, since those numbers appear several times on their site. Inductors + capacitors are very good at taking short, powerful spikes. They're not so great with a sustained overcurrent, which is what some of the other, supposedly "lesser" tests will use.

Quote
False - almost ALL high audio gear (ok you got me here, I'm not sure about LOW end crap, because I don't delve into it) uses LINEAR power supplies, NOT SWITCHING, because switched mode supplies are incredibly noisy, and totally unsuitable for high end audio applications.
Do most high end non-amp stuff like cd players and other components use linear supplies as well? I seriously have no idea, I'm of the "headphones and pc" HA crowd, not the expensive speakers and components group. And do things like rackmount audio gear have modular or at least replaceable power supplies?

Though switchmodes are noisy in the basic form, which enough caps they are pretty damn clean. I'm pretty sure a cpu chip is more sensitive to voltage disturbances than my ears are.

Quote
<long rant on computer psus>

You have some good points, some bad. HDs die a lot more from mechanical failure than power surges -- they're one of the less sensitive devices in a computer for a momentary overcurrent. The reason they fail "suddenly and prematurely" is inherent to the fact that they have mechanical, moving parts, while most of the rest of a PC is solid state. All PSUs have some type of surge protection (fuses) mandatory to the ATX spec, while PFC is optional. The bit about weakening vs total failure is a very good one though.

But I think your love for the bullet-proof solution is blinding you a bit. If you have $10k of audio gear behind some of the zerosurge conditioners, that's a great idea. However, investing hundreds of dollars into protecting a Dell that most people throw away after a year isn't as logical.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #12 –
Quote
False - almost ALL high audio gear (ok you got me here, I'm not sure about LOW end crap, because I don't delve into it) uses LINEAR power supplies, NOT SWITCHING, because switched mode supplies are incredibly noisy, and totally unsuitable for high end audio applications. There are only two applications in which I am aware of where switching power supplies are used in audio *sometimes*: 1) PA amplifiers (Professional sound reinforcement electronics) and 2) CLASS D switching amplifiers such as that used in some subwoofer designs.


Switching powersuplies are noisy, but at higher frequencies, so its pretty easy to filter.  A 100 or 200KHz ripple, even if its a couple hundred mV, it not hard at all to filter.  Thats why almost all electronics supplies use it, and honestly, high frequency digital systems are at least as sensitive to >20KHz noise as audio equipment.

Edit:  spelling

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #13 –
Quote
Very wrong, this is one of the more persistent myths about PSUs. I've even seen pro review websites get this wrong. PFC has nothing to do with the computer side of the power supply, only with the exterior power. What PFC does is make the power factor of the computer closer to 1, ie closer to an ideally resistive load. Standard PSUs have very bad power factor, which means they are a hassle for the electric company. Large customers get additional bills beyond actual watts consumed if they have bad power factor. If you have a big office building with 1000s of pcs, this can be significant. For the home user, PFC has absolutely no effect other than making the PSU slightly less efficient than it would be without PFC.


"It is also possible to perform active PFC. In this case, a boost converter is inserted between the bridge rectifier and the main input capacitors. The boost converter attempts to maintain a constant DC bus voltage on its output while drawing a current that is always in phase with and at the same frequency as the line voltage. Another switchmode converter inside the power supply produces the desired output voltage from the DC bus. This approach requires additional semiconductor switches and control electronics, but permits cheaper and smaller passive components. It is frequently used in practice. Due to their very wide input voltage range, many power supplies with active PFC can automatically adjust to operate on AC power from about 100 V (Japan) to 240 V (UK). That feature is particularly welcome in power supplies for laptops and cell phones."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor_correction

This achieves, effectively regulation, as you can see -- "constant DC bus voltage" that is the voltage that is delivered to your +/-12V rail, +/- 5 volt rail, +-3.3 volt rails.  By having the voltage controlled there, there is essentially no need to regulate it externally.  You are partially correct and what you stated is in fact in line exactly with what Wikipedia states, I was not specific enough in my description, although my intended meaning was there nonetheless and still is correct.

Let me add something further. I had, at various times, utilized a high precision (5 digit) digital voltmeter to my AC mains, on the circuit that my PC was plugged into.  During the summer where I live, 2 years ago, I noticed what I considered a high RMS voltage on my line  -around 129 volts RMS.  I called the power company to come out (long story).  Bottom line, the issue was resolved later.  During the time that my AC RMS voltage was 129 volts, I booted my PC into the BIOS, and looked at the voltages being delivered to my CPU, Motherboard, and 12 volt rails for the fans, optical and HDD drives and so forth.

Subsequently, when the power was normal, around 120-122 volts RMS, I observed the voltages in my BIOS again, they were the same as they were when the incoming voltage was 7-9 volts higher than it was previously.  Therefore, if PFC has no capability whatsoever of providing (i.e. regulating, or manipulating) the voltage supplied to the DC circuits in my PC, then feel free to try to explain why there was no voltage difference internally from the PSU.

Quote
PSUs have fuses.


That one is beneath me to even warrant a comment on, fuses are like 19th century technology, even if you had mentioned circuit breakers, it's a bona fide non sequitur.  They are too slow, period.

Quote
But IMHO these types or ultra-high power surges are extremely rare.


I believe that people living in Southern Florida, in many cities, they'd have a different viewpoint

Quote
Lightning very rarely goes into power lines, because they're insulated from the ground. I'm not worried.


Lightning doesn't necessarily follow "the rules" of electricity, Ball Lightning, though extremely rare, probably hasn't got a damn thing to do with where it thinks Earth ground is, it does things that make no scientific sense (i.e. roll around on a carpet, hover in mid air).  To some it has been harmless to them and their home, to others, it has destroyed objects, burned things, and even caused death.

"In nearby lightning strikes, the energy of the lightning is transmitted to the
building through ground current transfer. Nearby lightning strikes change ground potential and induce voltage waves through magnetic flux and ground saturation."
http://tinyurl.com/y7hjd7

Quote
Though switchmodes are noisy in the basic form, which enough caps they are pretty damn clean. I'm pretty sure a cpu chip is more sensitive to voltage disturbances than my ears are.


Doesn't change the fact that almost all high end audio gear is made with linear power supplies.  Even "digital-switching amplifiers" such as the PS Audio HCA-1000 power amplifier or the Carver ZR1600 Tripath circuit switching amplifier (which I own) both use LINEAR SUPPLIES.  Just because capacitors can clean power doesn't divorce linear PSU's from their use (sought after and intentional by design) in high end audio applications.  People in the high end audio business, including the design engineers, do ALOT of things that don't, or wouldn't make sense to you, nor anyone else at HA.org, and in fact, would be laughed at by the majority of you.

There are "casual computer users" who would think that many of HA.orgs folks talking about different CD/DVD-RW drives being better at performing Digital Audio Extraction, as a bunch of hoopla and nonsense, when they are perfectly happy with their generic dvd-rw drive in their laptop for their entire music collection,  perspectives my friend, perspectives.  I've tried to explain to friends about the differences and advantages of proper DAE (even one who is a musician in real life, as well as a computer tech), who simply don't want to worry (don't care) about there being a difference.

Quote
The reason they fail "suddenly and prematurely" is inherent to the fact that they have mechanical, moving parts, while most of the rest of a PC is solid state.


I never said that "the" reason that HDD's fail was due to surges, I said it was "one" of the reasons, you are correct about the mechanical aspects of failure, that coupled with the fact that many people do not have adequate cooling for their PC's internally, or even externally (room temperature, if someones air conditioning in a hot climate didn't work, or something)

Quote
But I think your love for the bullet-proof solution is blinding you a bit. If you have $10k of audio gear behind some of the zerosurge conditioners, that's a great idea.


I've owned over $30K of audio gear in my lifetime, and my current system is about that now.  Protecting my investment has always been a top priority.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #14 –
whats the bottom line on lightning strike protection for feeding power into a pc power supply, which in turn has audio gear connected, and sensitive data on hard drives?

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: gaillard on
whats the bottom line on lightning strike protection for feeding power into a pc power supply, which in turn has audio gear connected, and sensitive data on hard drives?


http://science.howstuffworks.com/lightning11.htm

Misconceptions:
...
Surge protectors will save your electronics (TV, VCR, PC) if lightning strikes your power line.
No way! Surge protectors provide protection for power surges in the line from the power company, but not for lightning. To really guard against strike damage, you need a lightning arrester. The arrester uses a gas-filled gap that acts as an open circuit to low potentials, but becomes ionized and conducts at very high potentials. If the lightning hits the line you are protecting, the gas gap will conduct the current safely to ground.

These are used often in antenna systems, including ham radio, which tend to be more likely targets for lightening on its way down to ground.

-brendan

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #16 –
Quote
Misconceptions:
Surge protectors will save your electronics (TV, VCR, PC) if lightning strikes your power line.[/b]
No way! Surge protectors provide protection for power surges in the line from the power company, but not for lightning.
Quote


And the reason they give is...............................................?

.........................

.........................

--->Taps foot.......................................................................

Ok, from your quote It's telling me that it's because they say that it can't.

"I did not have sex with that woman"

"That depends on what your definition of the word "is" is."

-former President Clinton

Well, if electromagnetic induction was that severe, such as to act in the same fashion as a massive EMP pulse, then yes, your screwed, unless all of your equipment was shielded against EMP (i.e. thick lead shielding).

There are far more frequent surges and power disturbances that are not related to lightning, which are more of a threat due to their frequency.

Lightning causing a surge in a powerline --even it its millions of amperes at 20,000,000 volts before it hits the line (or is induced into the line), cannot exceed 3000 Amps 6000 volts once it enters your residence because that is the threshold for arc over of the copper conductors.  This can be absorbed by a Zerosurge filter (it has been tested to take 1,000 hits at this amount of energy, without failure, without catching fire).

But to answer your question as to "what the bottom line is".  The bottom line is this:  I, nor anyone else, can convince you that you should spend 10 times or more as much on a surge protection device than the amount that you already have pre-set in your mind to refuse to never go over, regardless of any anecdotal evidence, and regardless of the number or stature of other people who have employed the use of such devices.

Do what you wish, I have researched this stuff for over 10 years, and you have the opportunity to take a shortcut from having to do that research yourself, by researching the facts, and trying other products.  Telephone companies use Silicon Avalanche diodes for low power data lines, there is a reason (go ahead and call Spring, AT&T, Qwest Communications).  A series inductor shares similar attributes as SI avalanche diodes and is infinitely more feasible for high power useage.  MOV based devices including all PSU's that use MOV's are like putting a band-aid on a shotgun wound.  How many power conditioners have you tried so far again?  See my list above, it's no joke.





Sprint (now Embarq), not Spring

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #17 –
OK, I'll bite. I have a BSEE from M.I.T. - no kidding.

In this post I am discussing only audio gear, not computers per se.

Surge protectors may protect gear from possible damage under a limited range of conditions, but as countless people will attest you may easily go without one for many, many years and see no ill effects unless power in your area is especially dicey. Therefore I must conclude that value of even the most fabulous surge protector is not high for most users.

As to audible differences when using "conditioned" power - B.S., B.S., B.S. Nothing there at all, just folks trying to take your money. Keep walking.

One could debate the merits of expensive avalanche diodes and such, but it is utterly beyond the point. Yes, they are fast - but nothing will sound better, it just means that a surge protector that uses them is "better" that your average MOV device.

Again, the salient points:

1. Failures due to power line issues for consumer electronics are quite rare
2. Nothing you do to improve the power line will result in better performance, only greater insurance against failure

That's it. I have used tons of gear over the last 30 years using cheap MOV power strips without a single issue, living in several areas of the U.S.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #18 –
Quote
OK, I'll bite. I have a BSEE from M.I.T. - no kidding.


Did my main focus center around sound quality or almost exclusively on greater peace of mind through more effective means of protection for PC's?

Secondly, have I tried to (from your point of view) "sell" anyone here on the idea to specifically go out and buy one of these on the merits of improved sound for a stereo system?  No, I did not.

Thirdly, having a degree does not give your opinion carte blanche precedence/overshadowing over others who may in fact have tested (even these type of tests can be done in an unbiased way, such as listening to products that you DONT KNOW what they are from the outset, nor how much they cost) power conditioners that noticed a sonic benefit.  If you had a Masters degree, or a PH.D in EE, it wouldn't further elevate your hard-lined textbook scientific "conclusions" any more than a BS has over not knowing anything about electronics whatsoever.

Quote
As to audible differences when using "conditioned" power - B.S., B.S., B.S. Nothing there at all, just folks trying to take your money. Keep walking.


Hmm, here's a guy that knows there's a difference in sound versus just using silver instead of copper to wind transformers out of.  He also happens to be one of the worlds premier, most respected, reknowned custom transformer winders for high end audio components.

Jack Elliano
http://www.electra-print.com/ 

Quote
That's it. I have used tons of gear over the last 30 years using cheap MOV power strips without a single issue, living in several areas of the U.S.


Yup, as stated audio gear is less sensitive.  That's why there are still thousands of working vintage components out there yet by: Marantz, McIntosh, Sansui, Pioneer,  Dynaco.  Especially the vacuum tube gear, which is even more resistant to electrical power surges/spikes innately.  Congrats for you, I, on the other hand, won't take such risks with my gear, PC or otherwise, that's my choice, and you nor anyone else really cares when you make the statement "your wasting your money".  Your just saying that because it portrays you in an aire of superiority amongst others.  It's nothing more than an empty cliffhanger.  It is very easy to convince other people that someone is "wasting money" when your dealing with a topic such as this which has elements to it that are not easily understood (sound quality).

Here's some food for thought:

1) How can a power amplifier sound better when it measures thousands of times higher in total harmonic distortion and/or intermodular distortion in comparison to other amplifiers?

2) How can cryogenically treating a conductor improve its sound quality?

3) How can a piece of vacuum tube gear sound better or worse depending on the brand and vintage of vacuum tubes that you use with the device?  When all a vacuum tube is  is metal, glass, and a partial vacuum?

4) How can custom made interconnects (RCA jacks/cables) sound better than the ones from Radio Shack or the ones that came with your gear?

If you believe that none of these things are in fact quantifiable, legitimate and true examples that actually can be proven by double blind tests, then you sir, can "keep on walking".  While your keeping on walking, I'll be enjoying listening to my music the same before you ever came around, and you can keep living in a world where "If I didn't learn it in class, and if it's not measureable, then it either doesn't exist, is impossible, or is too insignificant or immaterial to warrant my attention".  Because thats the reality with most "scientific types", and that's no skin off my back, nor anyone of the other tens of thousands of people that would challenge your almighty degree clouded by narrow judgement at:

http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html

If you want to "waste money" buy the deluxe model of this:  Better yet, audition it for free first in Pasadena, CA or at the next Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas.
http://www.vrsaudiosystems.com/

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: TrueAudio on
This achieves, effectively regulation, as you can see -- "constant DC bus voltage" that is the voltage that is delivered to your +/-12V rail, +/- 5 volt rail, +-3.3 volt rails.  By having the voltage controlled there, there is essentially no need to regulate it externally.  You are partially correct and what you stated is in fact in line exactly with what Wikipedia states, I was not specific enough in my description, although my intended meaning was there nonetheless and still is correct.
You aren't looking at the rest of that sentence: "while drawing a current that is always in phase with and at the same frequency as the line voltage." A PSU always has constant DC voltage supplied to the computer. What the PFC does is line it up with the AC. That's it.

Read: PFC decoded

Quote
Let me add something further. I had, at various times, utilized a high precision (5 digit) digital voltmeter to my AC mains, on the circuit that my PC was plugged into.  During the summer where I live, 2 years ago, I noticed what I considered a high RMS voltage on my line  -around 129 volts RMS.  I called the power company to come out (long story).  Bottom line, the issue was resolved later.  During the time that my AC RMS voltage was 129 volts, I booted my PC into the BIOS, and looked at the voltages being delivered to my CPU, Motherboard, and 12 volt rails for the fans, optical and HDD drives and so forth.

Subsequently, when the power was normal, around 120-122 volts RMS, I observed the voltages in my BIOS again, they were the same as they were when the incoming voltage was 7-9 volts higher than it was previously.  Therefore, if PFC has no capability whatsoever of providing (i.e. regulating, or manipulating) the voltage supplied to the DC circuits in my PC, then feel free to try to explain why there was no voltage difference internally from the PSU.
Because there would not have been a voltage difference if you were using a PSU without power factor correction! If you believe otherwise, then you have no idea how the thing actually works.

BTW, mains power is often off by a few volts. I think I would have called the company for +9V as well, but it probably wasn't hurting anything. Anything that was designed by engineers who know what they are doing can handle 10% difference from expected conditions. The only thing the extra juice in your house was doing was making your lightbulbs slightly brighter (and shorter lived).

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #20 –
TrueAudio - I see your point about high frequency noise. Switch mode supplies are very good at rejecting low energy RF noise (high energy pulses are likely to kill them) and linear supplies - because they use large iron transformers also tend to reject this noise. The filter caps on the output of the supply also get rid of a lot of it (the big electrolytics to 100kHz or so and most supplies have a set of ceramic caps which go up to several MHz). If noise above that is a problem in your area a couple of ferro beads will supress it nicely.

Quote from: TrueAudio on
Quote from: cabbagerat on

When it comes to power conditioners, there are three types. The cheapest are surge protectors, which just use one of a variety of devices (probably avalanche diodes, which are bit like Zener diodes, with different physics) to reject high voltage transients.


Not "probably" avalanche diodes, no one produces a consumer product that uses these for a 15 amp or greater circuit.  If you find one, post a link to it here, I'd be very interested in seeing it. 
MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors) are avalanche devices - the physics that drives them is similar to that of silicon avalanche diodes. Perhaps what I was saying was misleading - they aren't Si devices.

Quote from: Klyith on
BTW, mains power is often off by a few volts. I think I would have called the company for +9V as well, but it probably wasn't hurting anything. Anything that was designed by engineers who know what they are doing can handle 10% difference from expected conditions. The only thing the extra juice in your house was doing was making your lightbulbs slightly brighter (and shorter lived).
While power factor correction is a good idea from a social and environmental responsibility point of view - if you can call not wasting power and dumping noise over your neighbour's power responsibility - it has no direct benefits to the consumer. Here in South Africa, consumers aren't billed by power factor - the meters measure watts-hours, not volt-amp-hours and I think most other countries are the same. Large commercial and industrial clients are charged by volt-amp (or at least pay more for a low PF) - so passive or active PFC makes a lot of sense for them.

As for PFC making the output of the supply more stable - that's a load. Most switch mode supplies can operate within +-10% (or much more) of their design input and produce pretty much perfect output voltages.  Linear unregulated PSUs (as found in most amplifiers and a lot of other audio kit) are, of course, a completely different story.

As for lightning - transmission lines get struck by lightning all the time. There are transmission lines in the east of South Africa which get struck daily during the lightning season. Sure - they have earth conductors at the top of the poles which attract lightning - but they high voltages in transmission lines (400kV to 765kV in this country) tends to attract lighting. Anyways - power utilities have very advanced protection systems which shut off lines to prevent damage to their equipment from lightning strikes. If lightning did strike the distribution (not transmission - which generally is fairly well protected) network near your home it's likely to blow up any and all surge protectors you have.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #21 –
Computer UPS are useless 'cause tends to distort (sqare) the current, that is good for computers power supplies but not for audio applications.

"Line separators" (i don't know the exact english term - maybe power conditioners -, it's just a word translation from italian "separatori di linea") are interesting due to the clean and "analogical" AC re-generation, but the best results (in terms of quality and safety) comes from standalone batteries, AFAIK.

Just my 2 cents.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: TrueAudio on
Thirdly, having a degree does not give your opinion carte blanche precedence/overshadowing over others who may in fact have tested (even these type of tests can be done in an unbiased way, such as listening to products that you DONT KNOW what they are from the outset, nor how much they cost) power conditioners that noticed a sonic benefit.  If you had a Masters degree, or a PH.D in EE, it wouldn't further elevate your hard-lined textbook scientific "conclusions" any more than a BS has over not knowing anything about electronics whatsoever.
It does, however, give considerable weight to the argument.

Quote from: TrueAudio on
Hmm, here's a guy that knows there's a difference in sound versus just using silver instead of copper to wind transformers out of.  He also happens to be one of the worlds premier, most respected, reknowned custom transformer winders for high end audio components.

Jack Elliano
http://www.electra-print.com/
He 'knows'. Great. Got any proof?

Quote from: TrueAudio on
1) How can a power amplifier sound better when it measures thousands of times higher in total harmonic distortion and/or intermodular distortion in comparison to other amplifiers?

2) How can cryogenically treating a conductor improve its sound quality?

3) How can a piece of vacuum tube gear sound better or worse depending on the brand and vintage of vacuum tubes that you use with the device?  When all a vacuum tube is  is metal, glass, and a partial vacuum?

4) How can custom made interconnects (RCA jacks/cables) sound better than the ones from Radio Shack or the ones that came with your gear?

If you believe that none of these things are in fact quantifiable, legitimate and true examples that actually can be proven by double blind tests, then you sir, can "keep on walking".  While your keeping on walking, I'll be enjoying listening to my music the same before you ever came around, and you can keep living in a world where "If I didn't learn it in class, and if it's not measureable, then it either doesn't exist, is impossible, or is too insignificant or immaterial to warrant my attention".  Because thats the reality with most "scientific types", and that's no skin off my back, nor anyone of the other tens of thousands of people that would challenge your almighty degree clouded by narrow judgement at:

http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html
...and that's the difference between HA and some other audio related forums. Here you actually have to have at least a smidgen of proof to back up your claims - something you have completely failed to provide.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #23 –
I'm a BSEE so I have at least half a clue as to what I'm talking about. So I'll dive in here, mainly for TrueAudio's edification, and maybe for any other audiophile that passes by.

Power Conditioners vs. Power Supplies

A power supply, basically, has three requirements:
  • Convert from one power source to another.
  • Filter the incoming power source in order to meet the required specifications of the circuit..
  • Meet all specifications specific to the power supply. These include efficiency, power factor, heat dissipation, size, EM radiation, etc.
Audiophile power "conditioners" - things that claim to improve the sound of components by filtering and improvind the input power - must, by definition, presuppose that the power supply's implementation of point #2 is not optimal. The filtering necessary for optimal operation of the audio circuit needs an additional aftermarket item. This is, by definition, the fault of the power supply designer.

Now, if this were any other field but audiophiledom, this wouldn't really be a huge deal; engineers cut corners all the time to meet minimum specifications for a component, and there's nothing wrong with that. But we're talking here about components that are being advertised as the ultimate in audio reproduction, and by and large, apparantly have audio faults so small that they happen to not be detectable with numeric observations. Quite simply, the designer of such a component is impugned by the efficacy of such a modification.

If a power conditioner unambiguously improves the sound quality of a component that is designed for "perfect" sound reproduction, the designer of the power supply was incompetent.

Or, alternatively: Any improvement in sound quality caused by a power conditioner can always be equalled by improving the power supply design.


Linear vs. Switching Power Supplies

Ironically, there are a lot of incompetent power supply engineers in this field. I can tell you, as an EE, that the fundamental superiority of linear power supplies is a complete and utter myth. The only reason people choose linear supplies over switching supplies is that they are easier to build. That is, complete amateurs can build one. And to optimize the circuit, you just throw more money at it (bigger caps/bigger transformers/etc). Switching power supplies are considerably harder to construct and optimize - there are close to a dozen fundamentally different ways to make one, with several parameters involved with each - and even if you buy one prepackaged, you may have to keep some things in mind (obviously switching frequency, but also minimum loads, EM radiation, etc.) Most companies use a power supply specialist to sort through all these issues.

None of the issues with switching power supplies makes them fundamentally inferior. In fact, a properly designed switcher usually winds up being much cheaper than a corresponding linear power supply, which needs expensive and heavy transformers, caps, etc to work well. It's primarily a tradeoff between how much money you want to spend versus either how much time you have to design/build the supply, or how much expertise you have in power supply design. If you don't know a whole lot about it, or if you're in a hurry, linears are a decent pick.

Field Examples

Now, all of that said: there are examples, in the wild, of power supply upgrades being necessary.
  • My TC-750 phono preamp is one of them. I had a large (and audible) ground noise when using it; it went down by 10db when I used a beefier wall wart power supply, instead of the pithy one it comes with. This is primarily because the preamp is fully-discrete, but with very little in the way of line regulation. Discretes are far worse than opamps in PSRR. In other words, incompetent power supply design.
  • Certain classes of turntables may improve in quality with the use of power conditioning. Off the top of my head, DC motor designs that use linear power supplies would be especially vulnerable to speed variations, although I'm not aware of any manufacturer stupid enough to actually do that. AC synchronous might benefit from improved frequency regulation, but in most parts of the country, from what I understand, line frequency is astonishingly stable. Anyways, same issue here: If power conditioning fixes a problem, here's a quarter - get yourself a better turntable.
How To Test A Power Supply

Note: I take no responsibility for failed components with this test.

Buy an el-cheapo UPS. Make sure it's of the modified stepped-sine variety. Charge it up, plug it into a component, and throw it online (unplug it from the wall). If the audio quality is degraded, then in my opinion, the line conditioning in its power supply is not worthy of the "audiophile" moniker, and line harmonics could potentially also cause a (smaller) degredation in sound.

The proper solution to this is to upgrade to a better performing component.

Fancy surge protectors and power conditioners.. Gimmicks?

Reply #24 –
I won't dignify the degree certificate pissing match.
Quote from: Axon on
If a power conditioner unambiguously improves the sound quality of a component that is designed for "perfect" sound reproduction, the designer of the power supply was incompetent.

Or, alternatively: Any improvement in sound quality caused by a power conditioner can always be equalled by improving the power supply design.
There is another issue here, which you don't really consider. The power supply could have been designed to reject a certain level of noise, harmonic distortion, transients, etc and may peform very well in the lab. If the power at your house is a whole lot worse than that, the power supply will not perform within specs. The cheapest cause of action is to probably whine at your utility/council until they get your terrible power sorted out.

Quote from: Axon on
Buy an el-cheapo UPS. Make sure it's of the modified stepped-sine variety. Charge it up, plug it into a component, and throw it online (unplug it from the wall). If the audio quality is degraded, then in my opinion, the line conditioning in its power supply is not worthy of the "audiophile" moniker, and line harmonics could potentially also cause a (smaller) degredation in sound.

The proper solution to this is to upgrade to a better performing component.
Or, alternatively, use a cheap petrol or diesel generator - the waveforms coming out of some of the more budget ones is truly, truly awful.

Good post, Axon. I don't really share your clear cut "switch mode is always better than linear" opinion, but it's close enough to the mark to not really justify arguing about here.