Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

2006-09-25 23:31:34

Hey yall.

I rip a lot of vinyl to my computer. I have noticed a common trend, a lot of times when the source record has someone singing, its very likely that the 's' sounds the singer or speaker makes usually sound very harsh, like dirty, like distortion almost even? just very noisy, and very noticeable.

any one have an idea what causes this? it seems i thought at once it was that i had my tonearm too light. Im using about 3 grams now. is this common to records, to needles, to the transferring of analog to digital?

any info however detailed or not is appreciated.

thanks

-j

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #1 – 2006-09-26 00:54:23

There were a large number of production companies, equipment, and performers. Your selection might be rather different from mine, but I think your symptoms are not common. Perhaps some other aspect of cartridge and/or tonearm alignment is responsible.

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #2 – 2006-09-26 01:49:01

I agree with Andy.  Sounds like cartridge or needle problems. 

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #3 – 2006-09-26 03:25:08

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=34140

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #4 – 2006-09-26 13:07:00

I had terrible "S" sounds on some recordings when I borrowed a turntable with probably a worn needle some years ago

With my own setup I had some distortion specially in the inner grooves with a Ortofon OM 10 stylus.

I changed to a OM 20 on the same cartridge and the distortion went away...

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #5 – 2006-09-26 14:53:15

This is an interesting thread for me because I also sometimes get slightly distorted "s'es" when I'm recording from vinyl. It's not like it's really terrible are anything, I'm generally still satisfied with my vinyl rips, but it is sometimes a noticable artifact.

That's a good post by CliveB in the linked thread, I'll have to try some of those tips next time I'm archiving some vinyl.

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #6 – 2006-09-26 19:58:04

The thread makes a lot of good points, but it may be making things unneccesarily complicated.

Dirty S sounds (and otherwise nasty vocals) are the most reliable indicator that the needle is worn out.

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #7 – 2006-10-02 20:46:22

i did a search for 'sibilance' and came up with a few threads that mention this problem. however, it seems it could be a lot of things, and i can't pin down exactly what mine is. i'm wondering if it has anything to do with my straight tonearm? i'll try a new needle when i get home, but right now, im far away.

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #8 – 2006-10-02 21:15:45

Just to add my 2 cents:
this kind of distortion is called "mistracking" and occurs when the stylus loses contact to one wall of the record groove. This is not the bad thing, but when it hits the wall again permanent damage will be done to the groove!
If the distortion is only in 1 channel, this indicates the antiskating setting is wrong, if both channels are distorted equally, the tracking force might be set too low.
And of course, a worn out stylus also produces distortions - and also damages the groove permanently. The stylus may easily convert to a milling cutter 

Edit: a straight tonearm is not at all worse than a S-shaped one. The important thing is to correctly adjust the overhang, so that the tracking angle is always close to tangential. In the good old days every HiFi magazine every now ant then published a printed template to help with adjustment.

Edit2: oops, the thread kjonlee pointed to perfectly describes your problem

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #9 – 2006-10-03 01:16:15

The term for the distortion is not "mistracking," it's "sibilance" as has been noted earlier in the thread and it has nothing to do with groove contact.  Certain sounds such as "s" are created by a lot of concentrated audio force.  How a system handles that burst of force in playback is often with the noted hiss when you're using vinyl equipment.  It's a characteristic of the equipment being used and greatly depends on the quality of the cartridge. Some systems simply don't handle recorded sibilance well and this comes through with the ugly sound that you're detecting.  It would help if you listed the equipment you're using. 

Proper alignment of the cartridge will allow it to do the best job tracking that it can and should reduce sibilant effects.  That alignment should be done with a proper protractor (Stevenson, Kearns, Heybrook, Baerwald, Loefgren... all have benefits).  Plenty of brand new cartridges don't handle sibilants well and hearing a sibilant doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with the stylus... it may just mean that all the equipment together isn't the best match. 

Corrections on other parts of the thread... adjusting the overhang, while an important part of alignment, has nothing to do with the tracking angle and the tracking angle is generally accepted to be the best at 22 degrees (the vta of the cutting head) not "tangential" (which really isn't a term that has a precise definition). 

A cartridge like the Audio Technica 440MLa is highly regarded as an excellent tracker with very low sibilant response.  It's quite affordable and available at tons of places including LP Gear and TurntableBasics.

I'd also add that 3g of tracking force is incredibly harsh and you're doing a lot of undue damage to your vinyl.  I don't know what cartridge you're using, but i can't name a home audio one that would ask to be set that high.  1.25g is pretty average.

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #10 – 2006-10-03 01:23:18

3g is about average for DJ carts, actually. Conical tips generally always require much more force.

My 440ML has been a fairly crappy tracker, FWIW.

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #11 – 2006-10-03 23:33:28

Well, the display pic makes me think "DJ," but the post content seemed to indicate home audio user.  Regardless, 3 grams of tracking force will tear the crap out of anyone's vinyl. 

The AT440MLa - regardless of your experience - is generally considered the best tracker in production today.

Nasty Vocal 'S' sounds when ripping from vinyl

Reply #12 – 2006-10-04 01:31:31

I am quite a bit older that other HA'ers and lived with nothing but vinyl for years.

The great majority of turntable/tonearm/cartridge setups I have listened to (and that is a lot!) don't track very well. Clearly audible distortions are in abundance, ranging from ragged sibilance to mid-range breakups, inner groove distortion (the tendency of the last track to track much worse than the early ones) and others.

You can get a vinyl setup to work well, but it will cost real money. Allocate about $500 or more to the turntable/tonearm/cartridge and you will get closer. If you have a substantial commitment to vinyl, double this figure.

Sorry, but absolutely NONE of those garage sale turntables from the 70's will cut it. Garbage, all of it.

The charm of vinyl is not accuracy (it is very, very bad for that) but rather the quality of sound artifacts introduced by the mechanical system at work. If you want music that sounds more like the original master sources, a CD beats vinyl by leaps and bounds.