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Topic: ipod w rockbox and external hardware? (Read 24233 times) previous topic - next topic
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ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

I am about to take the plunge and purchase an ipod 60 gb video.  I have been interested in the cowon, but I keep coming back to the number of external interfaces designed to mesh with the ubiquitous ipod.  If I go with the ipod, though, I will have to use rockbox because I want to use Ogg and FLAC.  I want to plug the ipod into the optional ipod adapter for my pioneer head unit in the car.  Will I be able to use the interface between the pioneer and the ipod in any way?  I am assuming that the answer is "no.  I am also assuming, however, that as long as I use the interface on the ipod itself, the head unit will play whatever the ipod has going.  Is this a correct assumption?  Is there any real reason to go with the Cowon over the ipod?  Thanks

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #1 –
Quote
that the answer is "no. I am also assuming, however, that as long as I use the interface on the ipod itself, the head unit will play whatever the ipod has going. Is this a correct assumption? Is there any real reason to go with the Cowon over the ipod? Thanks


Minus any additional hardware features the logical answer would be no. You don't need the Rockbox specifically in order to decode Vorbis and FLAC files. There is a Xiph Quicktime decoder plugins that run on the ipod for Vorbis, I am not sure about FLAC. I would go with Rockbox firmware anyway though. 

http://www.xiph.org/quicktime/
budding I.T professional

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #2 –
The Xiph Quicktime decoder is for iTunes, not the iPod.

If you want to play vorbis and flac on the iPod you'll have to use Rockbox.

If you use Rockbox you can kiss the intelligent car stereo iPod interface goodbye, though there is nothing stopping you from using your iPod in the car like you would any other DAP.

Why so determined to use flac and vorbis?

flac will waste disc space and run your battery out faster and believe me, it isn't like the ipod's output is going to do justice to lossless audio.  But if you insist on lossless audio, the iPod will play ALAC. (Edit: I'm awaiting being called on a TOS violation for this.)

As for vorbis, look at just about any test results in this forum and you'll see that vorbis doesn't exactly perform significantly better than aac using the same file size.  Even the newer lame mp3s are performing better than what was previously imagined for such an archaic format.

I have the iPod interface for my Alpine.  I don't know if you've ever used one of those, but especially with 60GB worth of music they are painfully slow to navigate with.  (Edit: Yes, of course I ABXed it.  After 16 tries I noticed that a significant amount of time was wasted and quickly became annoyed because the result did not change my mind.)

Since I know nothing about the Cowon and although I really like my iPod, I can't recommend one over the other.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: greynol on
I have the iPod interface for my Alpine.  I don't know if you've ever used one of those, but especially with 60GB worth of music they are painfully slow to navigate with.  (Edit: Yes, of course I ABXed it.  After 16 tries I noticed that a significant amount of time was wasted and quickly became annoyed because the result did not change my mind.)


...and the reason I'm selling my 4G and Alpine iPod interface and going back to CDs full of MP3s! Sooooooooo slow.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #4 –
I would recommend a head unit from the likes of JVC with USB input and Vorbis support (undocumented) for use with your Rockboxed Ipod...only 2 caveats:  No gapless and resuming is not possible after the power is disengaged by way of the ignition...

The Best Buy in-house brand, Insignia, plays Vorbis files via USB input as well, surprisingly enough (but again, undocumented).

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #5 –
Pioneer additional box, CDB-100 from memory, and rockbox = NO. I got one just the other day. Works OK with the apple firmware though.

Kristian

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #6 –
It doesn't matter what brand of iPod interface you buy.  They are all slow because the speed is dictated by the iPod.

Rockbox/USB iPod solution sounds like a good idea.

Gapless playback wasn't possible before hand so all you lose is the ability to resume.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #7 –
Just a side note, Apple Lossless is a good solution for lossless audio on your iPod

Also doesn't AnaPod speed up transfers for your iPod

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #8 –
Well, with my 4G nano speed doesn't seem to be a problem at all, what exactly do you mean? Album switching? Almost instantanious here.

Kristian

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #9 –
A reason to pick Cowon over an iPod? Well, if you are certain you want FLAC and ogg support, surely it's better to support it with the blessing of the hardware company than without it? I don't see any advantage of the iPod that makes hacking the firmware more of a viable option than just using the default one.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #10 –
Aesthetic reasons mainly (like the scrollwheel) but I agree with you otherwise.  Still, Rockbox is generally more frequently updated than the firmware for even these alternative companies (i.e. Cowon).

The scrollwheel on the portable (along with the rest of the aesthetic aspects) has no bearing when related to external USB device (i.e. head unit) playback, though.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: kritip on
Well, with my 4G nano speed doesn't seem to be a problem at all, what exactly do you mean? Album switching? Almost instantanious here.Kristian

Alpine has a newer and faster solution also.
http://www.alpinefullspeed.com/go.html

I am behind the times! 

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: nexus77 on
Is there any real reason to go with the Cowon over the ipod?  Thanks


They might have fixed this, but I remember hearing that the Cowon X5 has a limit of 10,000 files -- pretty ridiculous. I ended up getting an ipod 60gb and I already have 13,820 songs on it, some music videos, and still have over 4gb to spare. This is with a range of bitrates, probably averaging 190 over the whole thing.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: kritip on

Well, with my 4G nano speed doesn't seem to be a problem at all, what exactly do you mean? Album switching? Almost instantanious here.Kristian

Alpine has a newer and faster solution also.
http://www.alpinefullspeed.com/go.html

I am behind the times! 

So am I!  Typical...I could've stuck with Alpine (I had a head unit from them previously plus a CD-changer in the trunk, which I'm now selling...works as well as it did the first day I got it)...but that would've required me to forego Vorbis and the USB device powering feature (flash drives!).  I'm pretty happy with my choice...I only wish I had a line in on the front of the unit as well.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: vinnie97 on
Quote from: greynol on
Alpine has a newer and faster solution also.
http://www.alpinefullspeed.com/go.html

I am behind the times! 

So am I!  Typical...I could've stuck with Alpine (I had a head unit from them previously plus a CD-changer in the trunk, which I'm now selling...works as well as it did the first day I got it)...but that would've required me to forego Vorbis and the USB device powering feature (flash drives!).  I'm pretty happy with my choice...I only wish I had a line in on the front of the unit as well.
That's cool! 

Me, well I have a 3G which can't get power from a USB cord.  Also I'm under the impression that Alpine's new iPod connection will not be backwards compatible with my deck!

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #15 –
Upgrade your deck then?  I assume you have an older Alpine that requires an intermediary device to communicate with the Ipod and you think it's already obsolete for said intermediary device?

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: vinnie97 on
Upgrade your deck then?  I assume you have an older Alpine that requires an intermediary device to communicate with the Ipod and you think it's already obsolete for said intermediary device?
Yep, the new connection requires a compatible deck from the 2006 line.  My deck was made in 2004.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #17 –
Wow, you h\guys are full of great info.  Thanks much! 

I am confused about a couple of things, though. 

1.  I thought that ipod with rockbox playing ogg or FLAC was gapless capable.  Am I wrong?  This is a very big deal to me.  It seems like the ipod + rockbox + FLAC + JVC w/ USB interface would be the perfect way of getting gapless playback from a DAP at lossless quality.

2.  If I am connected to the head unit via the cable on the bottom of the ipod (USB I assume) then ipod sound quality should be a moot point, right?  Doesn't this put the D/a conversion and audio circuitry into the the purview of the head unit, making the ipod just a glorified hard drive with a great interface? 

Basically I want to be able to bring a few hundred albums on a DAP with me in the car and listen to them at the same quality (including gapless) I would get if listening to a disc in a good head unit.

thanks!

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #18 –
Quote
1. I thought that ipod with Rockbox playing ogg or FLAC was gapless capable. Am I wrong? This is a very big deal to me. It seems like the ipod + rockbox + FLAC + JVC w/ USB interface would be the perfect way of getting gapless playback from a DAP at lossless quality.



Yes, it is. 


Quote
As for vorbis, look at just about any test results in this forum and you'll see that vorbis doesn't exactly perform significantly better than aac using the same file size. Even the newer lame mp3s are performing better than what was previously imagined for such an archaic format.


Yes, it is Itunes I get the two mixed up. Let him use what he wants though rather, then shoving your narrowminded opinions down other people's throats.  It's become clearly appearent to me you don't think to highly of open-source software. 
budding I.T professional

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: nexus77 on
1.  I thought that ipod with rockbox playing ogg or FLAC was gapless capable.  Am I wrong?  This is a very big deal to me.  It seems like the ipod + rockbox + FLAC + JVC w/ USB interface would be the perfect way of getting gapless playback from a DAP at lossless quality.

2.  If I am connected to the head unit via the cable on the bottom of the ipod (USB I assume) then ipod sound quality should be a moot point, right?  Doesn't this put the D/a conversion and audio circuitry into the the purview of the head unit, making the ipod just a glorified hard drive with a great interface? 

Basically I want to be able to bring a few hundred albums on a DAP with me in the car and listen to them at the same quality (including gapless) I would get if listening to a disc in a good head unit.

thanks!

The JVC USB solution is taking music from the iPod in digital form and is therefore doing the D/A so gapless playback is dependent on the JVC.

In the case of the iPod/iTunes specific solutions, I am pretty sure the iPod sends an analog signal to the deck (the dock connector provides a line-out).  This is certainly the case with my KCA-420i.

@HotshotGG, where's my TOS violation?  Seems like you're trying to start a fight with me.  I won't have any of it.  Since it seems you've been a bit disingenuous in your cherry-picking of my quotes.  Perhaps you can explain my forceful narrow-mindedness with this one:
Quote from: greynol on
Rockbox/USB iPod solution sounds like a good idea.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #20 –
Well… It kind of seems like I am getting conflicting ideas here.
Hotshot seems to be saying that the JVC will do the gapless thing while Greynol seems to be saying that, because the JVC is doing the decoding, it has to be capable of gapless and it is not?  Am I reading you correctly Greynol?  Have either of you actually used this combo?  Thanks afor your input either way.  It is definitely helpful. 

As to the format thing, I have read that there can still be a slight issue with pre-echo even with the newest Lame encoder.  I also am under the impression that mp3, while technically capable of gapless, is almost never read properly in order to do so except with the Karma.  If I am wrong, I would love to know.

Thanks!

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: nexus77 on
Basically I want to be able to bring a few hundred albums on a DAP with me in the car and listen to them at the same quality (including gapless) I would get if listening to a disc in a good head unit.

thanks!


If you went FLAC on a Rockbox ipod, you'd probably get fewer than 200 albums on it. The usable space is actually about 57gb. Estimate 300mb per album, assuming an average of 45 minutes per album and 65% compression. That's 190 albums. Give or take of course. The question is would you have the slightest chance of knowing if it was a vorbis -q4 file playing? Unless you can ABX that, then you are selling yourself short on a whole lot of space. You can just use vorbis and fit so much more music on it.

The other consideration is battery life. Rockbox isn't as battery efficient as Apple firmware, and using lossless would apparently cut your battery life down even further. So you could always run it plugged into the cigarette lighter. But you might get a loud AC buzz running through the stereo -- I've had that happen before with my Neuros and it sucks big time!

(But personally I use standard firmware and itunes AAC  "Life is short, and it's always getting shorter")

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: nexus77 on
Well… It kind of seems like I am getting conflicting ideas here.
Hotshot seems to be saying that the JVC will do the gapless thing while Greynol seems to be saying that, because the JVC is doing the decoding, it has to be capable of gapless and it is not?  Am I reading you correctly Greynol?  Have either of you actually used this combo?  Thanks afor your input either way.  It is definitely helpful.

vinnie97 says it is not and has the combo: link

I think HotshotGG only saw the first portion of your question about whether the rockbox firmware capable of doing gapless audio.  I don't think this was ever in question since this is one of its major features.

I really have no problem with vorbis (or flac for that matter).  My concern for you was that you wanted to use a head unit with an iPod interface and you wouldn't be able to do that with rockbox firmware.  I had no idea that you could connect an iPod w/rockbox to a JVC.  Based on what you said, it certainly seems like the best way to go if you're still interested in getting an iPod.  It also seems like other DAPs might be able to connect to the USB port as well.  I would pay consideration to whether another DAP can be powered from the USB outlet like the iPod can.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #23 –
Quote
I would pay consideration to whether another DAP can be powered from the USB outlet like the iPod can.


Thanks much.  This makes sense to me.  i hadn't thought about the usb power issue.  So much to consider!  I have nothing against going high quality ogg.  I believe everyone that it is probably indistinguishable.  I am a recording engineer, and am fairly picky, but I don't think I am super human oscilliscope golden ears either.  Even with an incredible sound system in a car, there are enough other factors to obscure any difference anyway.  I think the ABX would be great!  Sometime I may take the time.

ipod w rockbox and external hardware?

Reply #24 –
There are two ways of the interface working here.

Generic USB support. This will support files on an ipod, flash drive usb hard drive etc.

Ipod specific interface. This interacts with the ipod through the dock connector.


With USB support, the head unit will access the files digitally, and be resopnsible for all decoding, searching for files on the device. Using this approach, I belive the head unit will only playback files that it has support for. Its not dependant any type of firmware on any device you plug in. Therefore if you want to play flac using this approach, the head unit itself must support flac decoding, and is also resposible for gaps etc.
Also in this mode if a head unit has ogg vorbis support, it doesn't mean it can necciserially play anything else in an ogg container, ie ogg flac. This will have to be checke carefuly.


The ipod interface mode, is different. The ipod is controllled throug the connector, there are didgital control lines for album title etc, but the ipod itself does the audio decoding and streams this over the line-out in the cable. You are not going to hear a quality loss in this mode.
For an ipod with apple firmware that lets you play mp3, aac and ALAC, but not in a gapless mode.
When an ipod is linked to the head unit, it goes into a hybid mode of disk mode. On my pioneer, all access from the ipod is removed, it has a pioneer logo on the screen, and says "OK to disconnect". As it is the firmware that deals with the controls sent down the connector, the ipod firmware has to also support these controls.
As it stands, the current rockbox doesn't support this, so if you have an ipod in "rockbox" mode, and plug it in, nothing at all happens. Therefore at present, the apple firmware is the only solution in this mode.


Hope this clears things up?


A ray of light is that recently the frezze of new features that was imposed for over 3 months of the rockbox project, has been lifted. If you ask a developer, maybe its easy to add this functionalty to the rockbox?? I think the head unit reads the ipod library though, which rockbox doesn't use by defualt.

Anyways, all the best with your decision


Kristian