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  • eTaurus
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Problem with EAC cue sheets
Hi folks,
I tried to use a EAC- generated .cue sheet in 0.9 RC (2006-03-11). The funny thing is that foobar shows the tracks in the right order but plays the first file when selecting the first or the second entry, the second file when selecting the third entry and so on. The last file is not played at all.
I tried to find out what the problem is and found that editing the .cue sheet solves the problem.
This is the original EAC .cue sheet:

PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
TITLE "Once Upon A Summertime"
FILE "01 - Tidal Breeze.mpc" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Tidal Breeze"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Shifting Down"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 00 06:45:65
FILE "02 - Shifting Down.mpc" WAVE
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    TITLE "ESP"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 00 07:28:50
FILE "03 - ESP.mpc" WAVE
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Song Is You"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 00 05:38:42
FILE "04 - The Song Is You.mpc" WAVE
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    TITLE "Once Upon A Summertime (La Valse Des Lilas)"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 00 09:13:67
FILE "05 - Once Upon A Summertime (La Valse Des Lilas).mpc" WAVE
    INDEX 01 00:00:00

Please note that the FILE entry is found after the matching TRACK entry.
This is my edited .cue sheet:

PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
TITLE "Once Upon A Summertime"
FILE "01 - Tidal Breeze.mpc" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Tidal Breeze"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02 - Shifting Down.mpc" WAVE
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Shifting Down"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 00 06:45:65
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "03 - ESP.mpc" WAVE
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    TITLE "ESP"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 00 07:28:50
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "04 - The Song Is You.mpc" WAVE
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "The Song Is You"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 00 05:38:42
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "05 - Once Upon A Summertime (La Valse Des Lilas).mpc" WAVE
  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    TITLE "Once Upon A Summertime (La Valse Des Lilas)"
    PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
    INDEX 00 09:13:67
    INDEX 01 00:00:00

Please note that I moved the FILE entries to a position directly above the matching TRACK entries which solved my problem.
But this cannot be the solution because it is time consuming and foobar 0.8.3 loaded the original EAC without problems. I think this is a bug (or different way of reading .cue sheets) in 0.9 RC. If it is not a bug, please let me know.

eTaurus

  • r3fu53d
  • [*]
Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #1
I've been experiencing the same problem. Thanks for posting your temporary solution, though

I have these problems with unmodified CUE sheets generated by EAC with the [Non-compliant] option. I haven't tested it with any other CUEs EAC can generate, since Non-compliant is always what I use.

EDIT: Also, note that the first track's file entry is before its audio entry (a la your "fixed" version), whereas for the rest of the tracks the file entry is after the audio entry (a la the first, "broken" one). EXCEPT, in my sheets at least, the last track has no FILE line at all.
  • Last Edit: 23 March, 2006, 12:24:05 AM by r3fu53d

  • r3fu53d
  • [*]
Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #2
The other solution to this problem seems to be to use the "Append Gaps to Next Track" option in EAC and thus use the "Multiple WAV Files with Corrected Gaps" option to create CUE sheets - Though this is clearly not an ideal solution, since it appends any silent gaps to the beginning of the next track...

I'm assuming this problem stems from foobar being more strict about CUE sheet compliance in 0.9, but it would be nice if someone could confirm.
  • Last Edit: 23 March, 2006, 02:00:44 AM by r3fu53d

  • Synthetic Soul
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #3
Quote
But this cannot be the solution because it is time consuming and foobar 0.8.3 loaded the original EAC without problems. I think this is a bug (or different way of reading .cue sheets) in 0.9 RC. If it is not a bug, please let me know.
Quote
I'm assuming this problem stems from foobar being more strict about CUE sheet compliance in 0.9, but it would be nice if someone could confirm.
Correct.

Please note the term "non-compliant".  foobar has chosen to adhere strictly to the CDRWIN cuesheet specification.  The "non-compliant" cuesheets generated by EAC are the best way to store gaps, but are "non-compliant".

If editing the cuesheet as per the OP you should really delete the INDEX 00 entries as well, .e.g:

Code: [Select]
FILE "02 - Shifting Down.mpc" WAVE
 TRACK 02 AUDIO
   TITLE "Shifting Down"
   PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
   INDEX 00 06:45:65
   INDEX 01 00:00:00
... should be:
Code: [Select]
FILE "02 - Shifting Down.mpc" WAVE
 TRACK 02 AUDIO
   TITLE "Shifting Down"
   PERFORMER "Chet Baker"
   INDEX 01 00:00:00

This thread may be of interest to you.

Edit:  I just found the thread where I suggested the same action as the OP.  And here's the thread where this (foobar not handling non-compliant cuesheets) was discussed with Peter.

I see CueTools 1.5.1 will let you convert the cuesheet without having to process the audio files now, so that is probably the quickest solution.
  • Last Edit: 23 March, 2006, 05:32:45 AM by Synthetic Soul
I'm on a horse.

  • eTaurus
  • [*]
Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #4
@Synthetic Soul:
Thanks for your reply, it confirms what I already assumed. Moitah certainly does a great  job but unfortunately it does not work for me since I have stored my CD's in Musepack format because I do not have loads of HD space but do not want to miss a certain quality. CUETools needs WAV or FLAC files to obtain the informations needed for the .cue file, it does not only rearrange an existing file.

Maybe I should store my music in another way.  Would you please tell me what the advantage of storing music in WAV or FLAC format and maybe in a single file is (besides that these formats are not lossy)? What is your way of building a music archive? Do you have an idea how to build a space saving music archive with .cue files that are compliant to foobar 0.9? Do I furthermore need the .cue file to burn my Musepack files on CD so that it is a 1:1 copy of the original CD (besides the loss of quality) that is recognized by freedb for example? What are the general advantages of a .cue file? Maybe I do not need it at all.

I already feared that using Musepack would sooner or later lead me into a dead end. 

  • r3fu53d
  • [*]
Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #5
Quote
I see CueTools 1.5.1 will let you convert the cuesheet without having to process the audio files now, so that is probably the quickest solution.


But will burning/playing with the converted cue still produce accurate results based on the non-compliant gap method that was used to rip the disc?

It seems to me that converting would mess up the gaps, but I'm no expert on cue sheets...

  • Fandango
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #6
So far all CDs I have tested with CUE Tools turned out to be fine: Ripped non-compliant, converted that rip with Moitah's tool. Re-ripped CD as single-image+cue, then compared the EAC created single wav rip to the ones converted by CUE Tools: no difference.

If you want to be sure test it yourself.

Personally I despise those non-compliant rips and think foobar's step to take CDRWIN's standards serious is a good thing. The only drawback I see is that, many people think that foobar is currently far more advanced in this matter than it really is, since many are not aware that the major part of the CD handling was rewritten and things they might expect to be there aren't finished yet (pre-gaps) or were dropped because of the new approach (like the one this thread is about, and it's not sure whether it will ever come back). But at least the whole thing is not buggy... [span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']I hope[/span]. 

Personally I do Single file rips only nowadays: lossless codec (wavpack), embedded cue sheets + tags (for info that cannot be stored in the cue sheet). Whenever I need lossless copies of the CD, I use foobar to create them. But disc space is not an issue for me at the moment, so I'm happy with keeping all the lossless rips on my HD for listening. In fact I really love it to have one album packed into one handy file. And foobar2000 supports embedded cue sheets like a charm.
  • Last Edit: 23 March, 2006, 09:43:16 PM by Fandango

Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #7
Quote
Quote
But this cannot be the solution because it is time consuming and foobar 0.8.3 loaded the original EAC without problems. I think this is a bug (or different way of reading .cue sheets) in 0.9 RC. If it is not a bug, please let me know.
Quote
I'm assuming this problem stems from foobar being more strict about CUE sheet compliance in 0.9, but it would be nice if someone could confirm.
Correct.

Please note the term "non-compliant".  foobar has chosen to adhere strictly to the CDRWIN cuesheet specification.  The "non-compliant" cuesheets generated by EAC are the best way to store gaps, but are "non-compliant".


Is there really such thing as a cue sheet standard?  It seems that a lot of people are confused by the changes from 0.8.3 to 0.9, and I question whether it was reasonable to expect one to anticipate the change in cue sheet handling behavior.  The format has been fairly loose in practice, and unsupported fields were previously ignored by foobar.  The cue sheet format is not acknowledged by the IETF.  Who would've guessed that CDRWIN would become a source of standards?

Background: I had about one-hundred albums encoded in Monkey's Audio with embedded cue sheets that failed to load properly following an upgrade to 0.9.  The reason?  There was no "FILE" field in the *embedded* cue sheets.  I had omitted the field because it is superfluous in the context of an embedded cue sheet.  There is no question as to which file is to be played.

It would have been nice to have some warning of this change in behavior, but it's not something I'm losing sleep over, either.  Don't mistake my comments for ingratitude.  Foobar is an excellent application, the availability of which I sincerely appreciate.

  • Fandango
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #8
Oh, I saw this coming... and I knew it would struck people (who never tested the 0.9 betas) by surprise when they suddenly are unable to play a good amount of their music collection after the transition to 0.9.

Don't expect the fb2k devs to re-add the "old" features, I gave up this hope a long time ago. It's a big "maybe". To me it felt 0.9 was a lot about "removing" stuff from the bare player and about rewriting code.

Quote
Is there really such thing as a cue sheet standard?
I don't think so either... but oh well, foobar2000 is not my project.

Quote
Background: I had about one-hundred albums encoded in Monkey's Audio with embedded cue sheets that failed to load properly following an upgrade to 0.9. The reason? There was no "FILE" field in the *embedded* cue sheets. I had omitted the field because it is superfluous in the context of an embedded cue sheet. There is no question as to which file is to be played.


Oh, that would piss me off...  I said I like the new approach in a post before... but now I'm not so sure anymore.

Quote
It would have been nice to have some warning of this change in behavior, but it's not something I'm losing sleep over, either. Don't mistake my comments for ingratitude. Foobar is an excellent application, the availability of which I sincerely appreciate.


Yeah, the thing is... I have no clue what will work and what will not work concerning cue sheets and foobar2000 0.9. I'm totally confused, and in fact I have to do a lot of tests on my own to see how foobar2000 0.9 will react to certain ways of tagging and so on... yes a little bit more info from the devs would've been nice. But at least I was warned before the final release because I did some tests on my own. Now I was able to adapt to the new situation a little bit, converted some non-compliant rips already (~100 still left)... doing new rips the right way (although I'm not 100% sure they will still work in fb2k 1.0)...

But hey, then I guess it's the community and people like me and you who have to tell others about how the new stuff works. It's been like this here at HA.org all the time, so why complain? New lossy encoders needs ABX testing, new audio players need beta testing... Who cares about after work free time spent on comparing cue sheets and wav files?
  • Last Edit: 23 March, 2006, 10:42:02 PM by Fandango

  • Martin H
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #9
Quote
Quote
Is there really such thing as a cue sheet standard?
I don't think so either...

The cuesheet format is invented by Jeff Arnold of GoldenHawk Technology for use with his DAO and CDRWIN apps, and then the format has later been adopted as an defacto standard by multiple other apps. The official cuesheet spec is therefore the CDRWIN help file - Appendix A.

The name comes from when burning in SAO writing mode, where a cue sheet describing the disc layout must be sent to the drive with the SEND CUE SHEET command before the writing starts. The drive then writes the disc and uses the cue sheet data to generate the P and Q subchannel data + to get the format and block size of the data transfered with the WRITE command.
  • Last Edit: 24 March, 2006, 12:40:57 AM by Martin H

  • Synthetic Soul
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Problem with EAC cue sheets
Reply #10
Cool, thanks Martin H.  I've never seen such a comprehensive response to that question before.

Quote
Would you please tell me what the advantage of storing music in WAV or FLAC format and maybe in a single file is (besides that these formats are not lossy)?
I'm not sure there really is one.  Losslessness is pretty much the biggie.

Quote
What is your way of building a music archive? Do you have an idea how to build a space saving music archive with .cue files that are compliant to foobar 0.9?
I use Wavpack images with embedded cuesheet.  As mine is purely a backup I don't care that it is one file; I am most concerned with getting an exact copy, and images allow me to do this very easily.  I've never found the images a problem for playback, using foobar, anyway though TBH.

Quote
Do I furthermore need the .cue file to burn my Musepack files on CD so that it is a 1:1 copy of the original CD (besides the loss of quality) that is recognized by freedb for example? What are the general advantages of a .cue file? Maybe I do not need it at all.
If you are using non-complaint/gaps appended to previous track then the only reason you need a cuesheet is to record the INDEX 00 entries, i.e.: where the gaps start.  If you do not use the cuesheet the disc will not be 100% accurate, but I believe it will get picked up by freedb, and to all intents and purposes be just like the original.  Oh, and because you have ripped to tracks you may possibly be missing a TRACK 01 INDEX 00 hidden track (Search for "stoosh" on HA).

Quote
But will burning/playing with the converted cue still produce accurate results based on the non-compliant gap method that was used to rip the disc?

It seems to me that converting would mess up the gaps, but I'm no expert on cue sheets...
If you use the OP's method you are losing the INDEX 00 indexes, or pregap, information.  This means that the burned disc won't have all the indexes of the original, but bear in mind the INDEX 01 entry is the really important one.  To be honset, I was only suggesting for playing in foobar anyway.  The files are 2-3KB, why not have two?

Quote
Is there really such thing as a cue sheet standard?
Martin H has answered this better than I ever could.

Quote
The format has been fairly loose in practice, and unsupported fields were previously ignored by foobar.  The cue sheet format is not acknowledged by the IETF.  Who would've guessed that CDRWIN would become a source of standards?
Just because 0.8.3 handled these cuesheets, it doesn't make them right.  The previous cuesheet parser was inadequate and bugged, which is why Peter rewrote it for 0.9.
I'm on a horse.