EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

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EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #25 – 2006-02-21 14:09:50

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yeah I'm staying with pb3, too
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365973"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Almost all CD's I rip are not copyrestricted in any way, so I'll just use the latest EAC for most of my rips (it's faster and got more features than 0.95pb3). And whenever the need arises I'll simply use 0.95pb3 instead...

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #26 – 2006-02-21 14:11:22

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Also, i don't think a court case would be a problem for André. He could simply ask for donations to finance a good lawyer (...)
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I believe that money wouldn't be the only problem for someone sued by big companies. There's still a risk; and it's easy to loose your own peace of mind until the end of the (long) procedure.

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I think it is the wrong signal of André to back down before anything even happened.

I understand him. He's taking the entire responsability of his decision. He would be the only one to be really annoyed in this story if something must happen. Andre never earned anything with EAC (excepted maybe one of the biggest collection of postcard in Germany) and could be the real looser of this story. Interested companies don't really care about their image.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #27 – 2006-02-21 14:14:26

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I'm not providing links here....
But Google is your friend.
Search for "eac095pb3.zip"
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This also worries me. People treat it like it was ruled illegal. It is perfectly okay to link to it on HA.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #28 – 2006-02-21 14:19:45

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I understand him. He's taking the entire responsability of his decision. He would be the only one to be really annoyed in this story if something must happen. Andre never earned anything with EAC (excepted maybe one of the biggest collection of postcard in Germany) and could be the real looser of this story. Interested companies don't really care about their image.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365997"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But like spoon said:

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I disagree 100%, stick a bought CD into your boom box and it will read the first session only, that is an audio cd player. If you do the same in software you are reading the audio cd exactly as you should (Philips red book, no where in the red book does it say you must read a 2nd session).

That is why there have been Zero legal threats against cd ripping programs, it would be thrown out of court.

I don't see where the heightened risk is coming from. The original "CP-breaking" function has long been removed. The remaining option wasn't "circumventing" anything. That's like saying, holding the shift key so that no autostart-rootkit gets installed with certain CDs/DVDs is also "illegal circumvention", ridiculous.

If anything, "Retrieve native TOC" should be made the default behaviour, and then the switch can be removed, for all i care.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #29 – 2006-02-21 14:50:19

Is c't available in other languages than german? English or polish?

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #30 – 2006-02-21 14:57:24

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Is c't available in other languages than german? English or polish?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366003"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No: "Unfortunately we don't publish a magazine in English and our main activity is to create the German issue."

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #31 – 2006-02-21 15:16:46

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I don't see where the heightened risk is coming from.
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Yes, probably not. But companies have been sued for less than that. Remember that the first MP3 player was attacked by RIAA (iirc), as well as the first DivX players. There isn't anything illegal in these products, but big organisations brought an action against them. Andre is not Kiss nor Rio (was it Rio?). Even if he have the right with him, there's still a heavy procedure to endure, with possible mediatic pressures, possible incidence on his job, etc... And again, Justice decisions aren't always predictible (at least not here in France), especially with "piracy" and "hacking".

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The remaining option wasn't "circumventing" anything.

"circumventing" is a vague word. Even recording a protected CD or DVD into a simple cassette (analogic) could be interpreted as circumventing a heavy protection system.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #32 – 2006-02-21 15:19:29

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Is c't available in other languages than german? English or polish?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366003"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No: "Unfortunately we don't publish a magazine in English and our main activity is to create the German issue."
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366004"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There's a Dutch version :-P

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #33 – 2006-02-21 15:34:11

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"circumventing" is a vague word. Even recording a protected CD or DVD into a simple cassette (analogic) could be interpreted as circumventing a heavy protection system.
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No, it can't. The analog copy of copy-protected CDs for private use is legal in Germany, since you don't circumvent the copy-protection. The only act that's considered illegal in Germany is that CP circumvention. Therefore, if an audio CD doesn't have a copy protection, you can make legal digital copies for private use as well.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #34 – 2006-02-21 15:43:48

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No, it can't. The analog copy for private use is legal in Germany, since you don't circumvent the copy-protection. The only act that's considered illegal in Germany is that circumvention. If an audio CD doesn't have a copy protection, you can make legal digital copies for private use as well.
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I don't know the German law system.
In France the law is still in project/debate. I downloaded a recent and official project and the text is very vague. It says that "contourner" the DRM would be illegal. "Contourner" is the french translation of circumventing. It litteraly means "make a detour", find another path. You don't need to break anything (like hacking or cracking does), you just have to turn around (=make a tour, a circle, circum) the protection and paf! you've done something illegal. An analogic copy is bypassing DRM scheme. It could be illegal according to the sense you give to "contourner/circumvent".
But on the other side, the personal copy is still allowed

If protected CD are not rippable by any other application but EAC, no need to say that you could interpret this software as an attempt to break specific DRM scheme. Situation would be different if a majority of ripping programs could handle TOC alteration but it's by far not the case.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #35 – 2006-02-21 15:55:17

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If protected CD are not rippable by any other application but EAC, no need to say that you could interpret this software as an attempt to break specific DRM scheme. Situation would be different if a majority of ripping programs could handle TOC alteration but it's by far not the case.
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It also largely depends on the drive, not only on EAC. But nobody sued the drive manufacturers yet, and why would they? The drives that can read CP CDs are just ignoring some invalid data, they behave more "true" to the standard of what an audio CD player should do. And EAC is also not designed to break a CP. It has a function which could be interpreted by a biased lobby as an aid for CP circumvention, but that is quite far off. That option alone wouldn't do much if the drive wasn't helping as well, and the option only helps to read audio CDs in the intended way, and is not designed from scratch to circumvent a CP (as we know, there would be much more effective tricks for that). Therefore, like i said, it should be the default behavior of EAC and people should stop nodding their head to every far-fetched interpretations coming their way.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #36 – 2006-02-21 16:08:38

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An analogic copy is bypassing DRM scheme. It could be illegal according to the sense you give to "contourner/circumvent".
But on the other side, the personal copy is still allowed [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366009"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's funny how (seemingly) none of these companies were interested when it was all analogue, and just CDs... but now we have digital media not on a CD, like in a PC on a HDD or on someone's DAP, they start getting much more interested. The whole copy protection issue is a load of steaming poo if you ask me. Sure, prosecute people if they make money from selling copied audio/movies, but to prosecute people that make the tools to get the audio from one source onto another for their own pleasure... and then share those tools with 'us' (EAC for example), is ludicrous. Evil companies

rant over.

There's been some interesting debates today in this thread: it's been an enjoyable read so far

EDIT: and I know no company has said they'd prosecute Andre, but the threat of is enough. And I too understand that. But it's a shame. Cos ultimately the Govn'ts/companies will win even if we all grouped together against these copy protection rules --> thinks about this issue in the grand scheme of things, i.e. life, and it all seems rather farcical

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #37 – 2006-02-21 16:36:30

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And EAC is also not designed to break a CP. It has a function which could be interpreted by a biased lobby as an aid for CP circumvention, (...)
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I guess that's precisely what gives ground to Andre's decision. In this case I'd really understand him. I wouldn't take such risk myself. Would you?

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #38 – 2006-02-21 16:52:45

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I guess that's precisely what gives ground to Andre's decision. In this case I'd really understand him. I wouldn't take such risk myself. Would you?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366014"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If nobody takes any risks, everything that the lobbies devise will sail straight through. Do you want that? This current event isn't even based on existing verdicts, it's based on the sketchy possibility of a threat whose success seems unlikely, judging by the very same article. Plus the original offending function was removed many versions ago. You don't assume that law is on their side because they have expensive lawyers, do you?

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #39 – 2006-02-21 17:11:36

CiTay,

keep in mind that in germany there is a legal construct called "Abmahnung" (not sure, what the correct english legal term is, the verbal translation is "dissuasiveness").
This could cost you thousands of Euros even without going to court.
I wouldn't take that risk myself either.

Edit: typo
Edit: Missunderstandable expression

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #40 – 2006-02-21 17:14:07

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keep in mind that in germany there is a legal construct called "Abmahnung" (not sure, what the correct english legal term is, the verbal translation is "dissuasiveness").
This could cost you thousands of Euros even without going to court.
I would take that risk myself either.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366026"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That would also be easily solved with a donation. I once got an "Abmahnung" (cease & desist letter with a fee) myself, so i know what i'm talking about.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #41 – 2006-02-21 17:23:20

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I guess that's precisely what gives ground to Andre's decision. In this case I'd really understand him. I wouldn't take such risk myself. Would you?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366014"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If nobody takes any risks, everything that the lobbies devise will sail straight through. [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366020"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In your answer you admit that a risk exist. Should Andre run this risk alone? Should he run alone the risk to pay an enormous fine and go in jail just for the sake of bravery and consumers liberty? He answered to that, and not many people would act differently.
Ask to Apple, Nullsoft, Microsoft or Nero to implement such tools. They have much more strength to defend themselves against possible attacks than Andre have. But it's unlikely they going to take themselves such risk and would rather stick to usual ripping engine.

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This current event isn't even based on existing verdicts

That's called caution, carefulness, safety. I guess that Andre wouldn't wait to be the first one to be sued.

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it's based on the sketchy possibility of a threat whose success seems unlikely, judging by the very same article.

Unlikely doesn't mean impossible.
Ask Roberto who removed DVD-A ripping tool even when he knews that Brazilian laws were on his side. He wasn't really peaceful by hosting something legal but annoying for big companies and choose to NOT fight against them.

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You don't assume that law is on their side because they have expensive lawyers, do you?

A good lawyer is very helpful, otherwise the entire concept of "good" or "bad" lawyer won't make any sense. Law is human, thus imperfect. It wouldn't be the first time that people thinking that law were clearly on their side were sentenced and were obliged to appeal against a decision. Justice can't be fully transparent nor totally predictible. For a single (thus weak) person a big procedure is sufficiently painful and stressful by itself whether the final decision is positive or not, whether he had money enough or not.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #42 – 2006-02-21 18:23:55

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In your answer you admit that a risk exist. Should Andre run this risk alone? Should he run alone the risk to pay an enormous fine and go in jail just for the sake of bravery and consumers liberty? He answered to that, and not many people would act differently.

If not even the programmer is sure that this function could be classified by someone as a "copy-protection circumvention", and neither are the lawyers, this is clearly a sign that he didn't implement it specifically for that circumvention. That it can help against certain CP is merely a side-effect, and EAC has much less to do with it than the drive. This isn't at all the same case as for instance AnyDVD, a tool only for CP circumvention and nothing else, which is illegal to use in Germany. So i don't know where you have your penalties from, "enormous fine and jail"? That would be outrageous.

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Unlikely doesn't mean impossible.
Ask Roberto who removed DVD-A ripping tool even when he knews that Brazilian laws were on his side. He wasn't really peaceful by hosting something legal but annoying for big companies and choose to NOT fight against them.

Again, those tools were designed to specifically break an encryption/CP. But EAC is a normal audio grabbing tool. The function is not there to specifically break CP. It's good for enhanced audio CDs with data, accidentally broken TOC or whatever.

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For a single (thus weak) person a big procedure is sufficiently painful and stressful by itself whether the final decision is positive or not, whether he had money enough or not.
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I think the procedure can be very liberating and empowering if you know that hundreds or thousands of supporters got your back. If there really was a lawsuit at one point and André made it public, he could be sure of a great deal of support. He is not alone and weak.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #43 – 2006-02-21 18:45:25

maybe EAC should ask at startup what country you are from, and if in germany, disable, if not, enable.

EDIT: also ask at download time.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #44 – 2006-02-21 18:45:42

The whole stress would be for Andre (in case of legal action) not for the thousands supporters.
Now what you can only expect is that other developers or companies will implement similar features.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #45 – 2006-02-21 21:25:16

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maybe EAC should ask at startup what country you are from, and if in germany, disable, if not, enable.

EDIT: also ask at download time.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=366056"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But wouldn't people obviously want a feature enabled rather than disable it if they knew it was "useful"?

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #46 – 2006-02-21 22:17:52

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Funny enough ... Plextools Pro (and Pro XL) still allow you to switch your drive to "First Session Only" mode when doing DAE ...
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Plextor aint located in Germany and the German laws is a 'bit' extreme. Plextor is an company located in Belgium

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #47 – 2006-02-21 22:41:09

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Plextor aint located in Germany and the German laws is a 'bit' extreme. Plextor is an company located in Belgium
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I'm afraid the laws don't differ that much, see [a href="http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&numdoc=32001L0029&model=guichett&lg=en]Directive 2001/29/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 May 2001 on the harmonisation of certain aspects of copyright and related rights in the information society[/url]. You will find more or less contradicting laws about this in all of Europe.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #48 – 2006-02-22 02:20:25

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But wouldn't people obviously want a feature enabled rather than disable it if they knew it was "useful"?
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but then the users would be violating the law, no andre.

EAC V0.95 beta 4 released

Reply #49 – 2006-02-22 03:03:09

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but then the users would be violating the law, no andre.
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So far you don't break any law by using (or implementing) that function. A broken TOC alone is hardly an effective means of copy protection, therefore you can't classify that function as a CP circumvention, therefore it's not illegal under german law. If they want to sue anyone, they also have to prove that a broken TOC by itself is an effective CP. How do they want to show that? Then tools like IsoBuster, CDmage and many more would be illegal as well. That's irrational.

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