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Topic: Rockbox for the Ipod finally working (Read 116868 times) previous topic - next topic
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Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #175 –
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I'll just watch the Rockbox development closely and hope they add HFS support to their bootloader code soon!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365542"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I suggest you don't wait too eagerly for this one... For our bootloader to have HFS support, Rockbox itself also needs HFS support. Adding a new filesystem driver is a really big job, and no one of the current iPod developers use HFS iPods.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #176 –
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kritip. Thats an option, but I prefer to stay away from FAT32.
Afterall I switched to Mac to get a rest from all the problems with Microsoft related products.

I'll just watch the Rockbox development closely and hope they add HFS support to their bootloader code soon!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365542"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I think you are underestimating just how much work would be involved to add support for a completely new filesystem in Rockbox.  This kind of code is hard to write, and any bugs could potentially result in you losing all the data on your ipod.

Also, none of the current developers have any reason to invest the time in adding HFS support to Rockbox - we are all happy with FAT32. 

That's not to say it will never happen, just that it needs a new developer to come along willing to invest the time and energy to do it.  IMO, that time and energy would be better spent adding other features to Rockbox.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #177 –
@preglow and davechapman. I'm no coder, so I might not have any idea how much work this is.
Neither did I know, before now, that none of you Rockbox developers are Mac users.

I just thought that since the iPod is an Apple product, it would be an idea to support Apple's primary file system as well!

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #178 –
What gen iPod do you have? Don't most new iPod's use FAT32?

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #179 –
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What gen iPod do you have? Don't most new iPod's use FAT32?

I have two, a 4GB iPod nano and a 4GB iPod mini.

Its just recently that new iPod come with Windows (FAT32) file system. My iPod mini and all my previous iPod's came with Mac (HFS) file system, while my iPod nano came with Windows file system.
If you ever updated the iPod firmware there is no way getting back (on a Mac). Simply because the iPod Software Updater dont allow you to restore the Windows file system.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #180 –
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kritip. Thats an option, but I prefer to stay away from FAT32.
Afterall I switched to Mac to get a rest from all the problems with Microsoft related products.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365542"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Why? FAT32 for all its faults is basic but well documented and understood. I can even recover deleted data using a hex editor by hand, try that using HFS.

FAT32 isn't a Microsoft 'product', it's a specification. And seeing as even Apple use it by default on the latest ipods (like mine) I think your reasoning is a bit ridiculous.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #181 –
seanyseansean. I guess you're a Windows and not a Mac user, right?
Or else would have known its not possible to restore an iPod for Windows on Mac OS X.

Thats the first point stopping me from trying Rockbox.


This discussion is going nowhere.
Because some of guys obviously dont understand that the prefered and best file system for Mac is HFS. Not FAT32!
...and Apple have made it difficult for us to use something else.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #182 –
I must be missing something. I thought that Apple did away with the two different versions of iPods for Mac/PC.

I bought an iPod Mini 2nd gen. Originally I used it on a PC (FAT32).

When I moved over to my new iMac two months ago, I did a restore on it and had it formatted with HFS.

As far as I know, there is nothing stopping a Mac from formatting an iPod that used to be on a PC.
iTunes 10 - Mac OS X 10.6
256kbps AAC VBR
iPhone 4 32GB

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #183 –
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What gen iPod do you have? Don't most new iPod's use FAT32?

I have two, a 4GB iPod nano and a 4GB iPod mini.

Its just recently that new iPod come with Windows (FAT32) file system. My iPod mini and all my previous iPod's came with Mac (HFS) file system, while my iPod nano came with Windows file system.

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365597"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


All Ipods since the 3G have used FAT32 + HFS+.  You can format it either way.  Realistically you should be using FAT32 since that is supported on Windows, Linux and MacOS while HFS has less support and no advantages.

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If you ever updated the iPod firmware there is no way getting back (on a Mac). Simply because the iPod Software Updater dont allow you to restore the Windows file system.


Thats ridiculous.  Just format it on a Mac.  Its just a hard disk.  You don't need to do a software update for that.

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seanyseansean. I guess you're a Windows and not a Mac user, right?
Or else would have known its not possible to restore an iPod for Windows on Mac OS X.


Why do you think think that?

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This discussion is going nowhere.
Because some of guys obviously dont understand that the prefered and best file system for Mac is HFS. Not FAT32!
...and Apple have made it difficult for us to use something else.


Yes and the prefered and best file system for the Ipod is FAT32.  Not HFS+!  So whats your point?

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I must be missing something. I thought that Apple did away with the two different versions of iPods for Mac/PC.

I bought an iPod Mini 2nd gen. Originally I used it on a PC (FAT32).

When I moved over to my new iMac two months ago, I did a restore on it and had it formatted with HFS.

As far as I know, there is nothing stopping a Mac from formatting an iPod that used to be on a PC.


You're not, Apple did do away with the two Ipod types, and krmathis is mistaken.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #184 –
Apparently, a iPodLinux developer is working on HFS support in the bootloader.  I have no idea where it is at but there is someone working on it albeit a different project.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #185 –
First thank you very much RockBox developers!!!

I've been happily using RockBox on my 4G since it became publicly available and have just upgraded to a 5G. Has anyone else noticed that on the 5G the audio is mono? I realize that development is in an early stage, but I've seen more than a few posts stating that the audio is working fine on the 5G and I want to make sure that i am not the only one experiencing mono playback.

Anyone else with mono playback on the 5G?

Cheers,
Pete

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #186 –
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All Ipods since the 3G have used FAT32 + HFS+. You can format it either way.
Thats only partly correct.
The 3G iPod was delivered with a HFS+ file system, so a Mac user had no option to use a FAT32 file system. But a Windows user had to use the iPod Software Updater to format with FAT32.
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Realistically you should be using FAT32 since that is supported on Windows, Linux and MacOS while HFS has less support and no advantages.
My iPod is only used on a Mac, so I see no need for FAT32 file system.
On the other side, as mentioned multiple times, its not possible to format the iPod for FAT32 on a Mac.

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If you ever updated the iPod firmware there is no way getting back (on a Mac). Simply because the iPod Software Updater dont allow you to restore the Windows file system. wink.gif
Thats ridiculous. Just format it on a Mac. Its just a hard disk. You don't need to do a software update for that.
Why is that ridiculous.
The hidden boot partition where the iPod firmware (and Rockbox) are stored cant be formatted to FAT32 on a Mac. Ok, the main partition can be formatted to FAT32, but since the boot partition still are HFS+ its of no use.

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seanyseansean. I guess you're a Windows and not a Mac user, right?
Or else would have known its not possible to restore an iPod for Windows on Mac OS X.
Why do you think think that?
Because if he was a Mac user he would most probably know that the iPod Software Updater dont allow us to format the iPod with FAT32 file system.
So once you go HFS+ (standard on the first iPod's, or if you updated the firmware), there is no way to get a FAT32 file system. For that you need a Windows computer.

Quote
Quote
This discussion is going nowhere.
Because some of guys obviously dont understand that the prefered and best file system for Mac is HFS. Not FAT32!
...and Apple have made it difficult for us to use something else.
Yes and the prefered and best file system for the Ipod is FAT32. Not HFS+! So whats your point?
If its the prefered file system for iPod's connected to a Mac, why dont Apple allow us to update the firmware on a FAT32 formatted iPod?
So that tell me that FAT32 is the prefered (only) file system on Windows, while HFS+ is the prefered file system for Mac.

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I must be missing something. I thought that Apple did away with the two different versions of iPods for Mac/PC.

I bought an iPod Mini 2nd gen. Originally I used it on a PC (FAT32).

When I moved over to my new iMac two months ago, I did a restore on it and had it formatted with HFS.

As far as I know, there is nothing stopping a Mac from formatting an iPod that used to be on a PC.
You're not, Apple did do away with the two Ipod types, and krmathis is mistaken.
Why am I mistaken?
As chrisgeleven say, there is nothing stopping a Mac from formatting an iPod that used to be on a PC.
What I say is that there is no way for a Mac to format an iPod that used to be on a Mac to be used on a PC (windows). The iPod Software Updater dont have such an option.


So to sum up:
* A FAT32 formatted iPod can be used on both Windows and Mac OS X (and other).
* A FAT32 formatted iPod cant be updated to a later firmware from Mac OS X.
* A HFS+ formatted iPod cant be restored to FAT32 from Mac OS X.
* To format an iPod for FAT32 you need a Windows computer.

So in the end the best choice for a Mac user are to use a HFS+ formatted iPod.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #187 –
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So in the end the best choice for a Mac user are to use a HFS+ formatted iPod.


I agree - Apple don't make it easy for a Mac user to use FAT32 on their iPod. 

But until after someone volunteers to spend a considerable amount of their free time implementing HFS support in Rockbox, there are no other options than to convert your ipod to FAT32.

However, there does seem to be a need for a utility to help Mac users with this conversion.  There is a tool available for Linux that does exactly this, but it will probably need a little work to get it working in Mac OS:

http://ipod-on-linux.sourceforge.net/

But at least that tool will document the steps needed.

There will eventually be a GUI installer for Rockbox on the iPod.  My plan is for this to be cross-platform and that could potentially also take care of the conversion from HFS to FAT32.  But that's also a long way into the future.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #188 –
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Thats only partly correct.
The 3G iPod was delivered with a HFS+ file system, so a Mac user had no option to use a FAT32 file system. But a Windows user had to use the iPod Software Updater to format with FAT32.

My 3G iPod came with a FAT32 filesystem. From the factory.

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On the other side, as mentioned multiple times, its not possible to format the iPod for FAT32 on a Mac.

True, however it's quite possible to restore the thing to HFS+ if you like. And regardless, you can format the thing manually to FAT32 on any platform, if you want to use Rockbox.

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Why is that ridiculous.
The hidden boot partition where the iPod firmware (and Rockbox) are stored cant be formatted to FAT32 on a Mac. Ok, the main partition can be formatted to FAT32, but since the boot partition still are HFS+ its of no use.

Rockbox does not live on the boot partition. It lives on the data partition, which it expects to be FAT32. The only change Rockbox makes is to the bootloader, which lives on the first sector of the drive and is independant of filesystem.

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Because if he was a Mac user he would most probably know that the iPod Software Updater dont allow us to format the iPod with FAT32 file system. So once you go HFS+ (standard on the first iPod's, or if you updated the firmware), there is no way to get a FAT32 file system. For that you need a Windows computer.

Or you could spend a few minutes learning how to format a drive manually. Really, I'm no fan of Macs, but you're making out like it's impossible to do this with a Mac, and you're simply wrong. It's not point and click, I grant you, but it's quite doable.

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If its the prefered file system for iPod's connected to a Mac, why dont Apple allow us to update the firmware on a FAT32 formatted iPod?

Because you're doing something wrong, perhaps? You can update a FAT32 iPod using a Mac just fine. Admittedly, it converts it to HFS+ in the process if you use the Apple firmware updater.

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So that tell me that FAT32 is the prefered (only) file system on Windows, while HFS+ is the prefered file system for Mac.

"Preferred" is a strong word. "Default" makes more sense. There's really no advantage to either filesystem in this particular case, they're both doing basically the same sort of things. While HFS+ is a more advanced filesystem than FAT32, it's also a bit slower (in theory), and in the particular case of the iPod, FAT32 would actually be the better choice. But the difference is so small that you can't really use the word "preferred" in any real sense of the term, especially when you're talking about using third party software like Rockbox in the first place.

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So in the end the best choice for a Mac user are to use a HFS+ formatted iPod.

Sorry, but that just doesn't make much sense. You might want to download the latest iPod firmware updater program, it sounds like you have a very old version or something. FAT32 is the default nowadays for iPod's. It has more support and just works better all around, on both Macs and PCs.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #189 –
Noobish question here.

How is the (is there one?) battery issue with rockbox and mpc/vorbis-playback compared to standard mp3-playback and the original apple-software.

Does it use a lot more with vorbis/mpc? Or maybe even less with mpc?

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #190 –
This is a stupid issue considering the current state of rockbox in general, especially on the iPod - it barely works. Anyone who's going to mess around with 3rd party firmware for their iPod can reasonably be expected to perhaps have to jump through a few hoops to get it work. I'm an OS X user myself and although iPodLinux has working HFS+ support i think it's a bit unreasonable to expect it in rockbox anytime soon! It's far, far, far down the list of things on the priority tree.

Tip: you could probably use Virtual PC to format your ipod as FAT32 if it can connect by USB.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #191 –
You can use a linux boot disc to format your ipod to fat32.. if you're that desperate.

I'm sure there are utils on the mac which can format in fat32 as well.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #192 –
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Noobish question here.

How is the (is there one?) battery issue with rockbox and mpc/vorbis-playback compared to standard mp3-playback and the original apple-software.

Does it use a lot more with vorbis/mpc? Or maybe even less with mpc?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365800"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


At the moment, Rockbox on the iPod doesn't adjust the CPU frequency during playback - it's always running at 75MHz.  This means that the only thing affecting runtime is the bitrate of the file - i.e. the amount of data needed to be read from the hard disk.  192kbps MPC, Vorbis and MP3 playback should all consume the same amount of power.

Someone is currently working on adjustable CPU frequency on the ipod, and when that happens, there will start to be differences between the codecs in terms of power consumption.

Currently, I would expect Rockbox to compare badly in terms of battery life to the Apple firmware - but we are only just starting to think about power management on the iPod, so hopefully we can narrow the gap in the future.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #193 –
I got about 7.5 hours of mpc playback yesterday on my 30gb 5G if that helps. This was all serial access - full albums, not fettling around with the buttons all the time.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #194 –
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[SNIP]
[...]but we are only just starting to think about power management on the iPod, so hopefully we can narrow the gap in the future.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=365813"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That was a wonderfully informative answer and combined with seanyseansean's reply I've gotten all the info I needed. Thanks.

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #195 –
@davechapman and Otto42. So this should work?
1. Port the ipodpatcher applications to Mac OS (I pulled and compiled ipod_fw from cvs).
2. Extract the iPod firmware with ipodpatcher, add the Rockbox bootloader code with ipod_fw. Then write it back to the iPod boot partition with ipodpatcher.
3. Format the iPod main partition to FAT32 with Disk Utility.

Then I should have a fully working iPod with both Rockbox and the original iPod firmware. Right?

I cant figure out how to access the boot partition, as I cant find its mount point.
Or else could possible use dd instead of ipodpatcher

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #196 –
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@davechapman and Otto42. So this should work?
1. Port the ipodpatcher applications to Mac OS (I pulled and compiled ipod_fw from cvs).
2. Extract the iPod firmware with ipodpatcher, add the Rockbox bootloader code with ipod_fw. Then write it back to the iPod boot partition with ipodpatcher.
3. Format the iPod main partition to FAT32 with Disk Utility.

Then I should have a fully working iPod with both Rockbox and the original iPod firmware. Right?

I cant figure out how to access the boot partition, as I cant find its mount point.
Or else could possible use dd instead of ipodpatcher
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I've used a FAT32 iPod on a Mac, but I've never converted one from HFS to FAT32, so I can't help you with the conversion stage.

Regarding the installation of Rockbox itself, ipodpatcher is very specific to Windows.  For Mac OS, I've written a utility which is equivalent to ipodpatcher, but I haven't released it yet - I want to find the time to merge the Mac specific code with ipodpatcher to create a single utility.

As you've discovered, Mac OS hides the boot partition from you, so dd won't work.

Drop by #rockbox on IRC (see [a href="http://www.rockbox.org/irc/)]http://www.rockbox.org/irc/)[/url] and I can let you have a copy of the source - I've used it to install the Rockbox bootloader from Mac OS.  My nick there is linuxstb

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #197 –
So using Disk Utility on Mac OS X to reformat the iPod to FAT32 won't work for this? You need access to a hidden partition?

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #198 –
Dave & Sean (or any other 5G owners),

Can I get comfirmation about the playback status of the 5G. So far every build up to the current (2/20), seems to be giving mono playback. Is anyone else experiencing this or am I all alone?

Just to be clear, this is not a complaint as I realize that all this is in the very early stages. I am just looking to confirm the current status.

Cheers,
Pete

Rockbox for the Ipod finally working

Reply #199 –
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Can I get comfirmation about the playback status of the 5G. So far every build up to the current (2/20), seems to be giving mono playback. Is anyone else experiencing this or am I all alone?


Yes - it's a widely reported problem.  It's high up on my list of bugs to investigate.

EDIT: After a short investigation, I think I've found the problem.  The output of both the left and right DACs was being sent to both the left and right output mixers - obviously giving mono playback....  That's now fixed in Rockbox CVS, so the next "bleeding edge" build (or tonight's Daily Build) will include the fix.