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Topic: Howto record tapes (Read 8897 times) previous topic - next topic
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Howto record tapes

Hi
since my girlfriend has only a tape in her car stereo I've connected my fathers Pioneer CT-250 Tapedeck to my PC.
Now I wonder how much gain should I set? Is it ok if peaks go up to +1/+2 db, or should the meter always stay below 0db?
The Tapedeck offers Dolby B and Dolby C, but somehow it seems to me there is less treble when using Dolby, do you recommend to use it?

It's hard to find info about this ancient technology
Blubb

Howto record tapes

Reply #1 –
Back when I would record tapes for the car, I'd let the level get up above 0dB.  Tape can handle it and add a bit of saturation and also help get a bit more umph out of the car deck which normally are underpowered. 

Dolby should not be used unless the car deck supports it.l
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Howto record tapes

Reply #2 –
Hi hödyr

I would use Dolby B for recording. Causes less problems as she is going to playback in Dolby B only. I assume, her devices supports Dolby B. I haven't seen devices without Dolby B for several years.

It depends on your tapeeck, how to record. For my deck as an example, the manufacturer suggests to record wie +4 db, +6 db and + 4db for type I, II and IV. So you should try to find some good tests about your tapedeck, as they unsually cared about this matter.

If you can't find any tests I would go at about 1 or 2 db above 0, just du be safe.

Etienne

Howto record tapes

Reply #3 –
i am not home till sunday so i dont have a link here,but;
do a search here on or google and look for wave repair....
its a one nice app-audio editor featuring some actions in real time,big level metars etc...
even author drops here sometimes   
On his site there is a big massive tutorial which is a must base for every audio-hifi fans,check that out-youll love it..
It is totally explained how to transfer lp or tapes to hd,how to edit it,take pops clicks out...bla bla bla

Howto record tapes

Reply #4 –
Quote
i am not home till sunday so i dont have a link here,but;
do a search here on or google and look for wave repair....
its a one nice app-audio editor featuring some actions in real time,big level metars etc...
even author drops here sometimes   
On his site there is a big massive tutorial which is a must base for every audio-hifi fans,check that out-youll love it..
It is totally explained how to transfer lp or tapes to hd,how to edit it,take pops clicks out...bla bla bla
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310140"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Read the first post again - the poster is not transferring tapes to the PC, he's recording tapes for his girlfriend's car.

Howto record tapes

Reply #5 –
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but one of the most important variables here is tape quality. See if your girlfriend's car is able to autodetect chromium dioxide or metal tapes, as these will make a big difference in recording quality (and the degree to which you will be able to "saturate" if you go over 0dB). You may also want to google your recording deck and see if anybody has any recommendations for particular tape brands or formulations. Crappy tape will give you crappy sound, no matter how carefully you set the recorder.

Howto record tapes

Reply #6 –
Quote
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but one of the most important variables here is tape quality. See if your girlfriend's car is able to autodetect chromium dioxide or metal tapes, as these will make a big difference in recording quality (and the degree to which you will be able to "saturate" if you go over 0dB). You may also want to google your recording deck and see if anybody has any recommendations for particular tape brands or formulations. Crappy tape will give you crappy sound, no matter how carefully you set the recorder.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310145"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Also, when recording line-in from CRO2 or Metal tapes, you will get a better result by selecting Normal bias on your tape deck instead of CRO2 or Metal, especially when using Dolby.

Regards,
Madrigal

Howto record tapes

Reply #7 –
Quote
Quote
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but one of the most important variables here is tape quality. See if your girlfriend's car is able to autodetect chromium dioxide or metal tapes, as these will make a big difference in recording quality (and the degree to which you will be able to "saturate" if you go over 0dB). You may also want to google your recording deck and see if anybody has any recommendations for particular tape brands or formulations. Crappy tape will give you crappy sound, no matter how carefully you set the recorder.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310145"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Also, when recording line-in from CRO2 or Metal tapes, you will get a better result by selecting Normal bias on your tape deck instead of CRO2 or Metal, especially when using Dolby.

Regards,
Madrigal
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310147"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why is that?

Howto record tapes

Reply #8 –
Quote
Quote
Quote
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but one of the most important variables here is tape quality. See if your girlfriend's car is able to autodetect chromium dioxide or metal tapes, as these will make a big difference in recording quality (and the degree to which you will be able to "saturate" if you go over 0dB). You may also want to google your recording deck and see if anybody has any recommendations for particular tape brands or formulations. Crappy tape will give you crappy sound, no matter how carefully you set the recorder.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310145"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Also, when recording line-in from CRO2 or Metal tapes, you will get a better result by selecting Normal bias on your tape deck instead of CRO2 or Metal, especially when using Dolby.

Regards,
Madrigal
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310147"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why is that?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310153"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Beats me as to why. I only know it to be so from experience.

Regards,
Madrigal

Howto record tapes

Reply #9 –
Type II or IV cassettes recorded with normal bias seem to have more HF content when played back on some players, especially cars. I think there might have even been a thread a while back where we discussed the technical reasons behind this.

Howto record tapes

Reply #10 –
I'm suprised that no one has mentioned cost effectiveness. 

In the long run it will be more cost effective to put a cd or cd/mp3 deck in the car.  You'll quickly spend more $ on tapes.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Howto record tapes

Reply #11 –
Madrigal: I may have misinterpreted what you're saying here, but I read it as saying that you get better *playback* of chrome/metal tapes if you set the deck to normal bias. Well, if that's what you *are* saying, then I'm afraid I have some bad news for you: bias has nothing to do with playback; it is purely a recording issue. A high-frequency bias signal is added to the audio signal during recording as means of getting the signal registered in the magnetic particles on the tape.

Now, it may be that what you're saying is that you get better high frequency playback performance from chrome/metal tapes if you use normal bias while recording them. That makes sense, because the greater the bias signal, the less high frequencies you'll get onto the tape, and so the normal bias (which is lower than for chrome/metal) will indeed allow more high frequencies to be recorded. However, what you're actually getting is *excessive* high frequencies - if it really sounds better that way, then your tape deck is badly calibrated, or maybe the heads are worn. But of course the bottom line is that if it sounds better to you, then that's fine.

Incidentally, the whole issue of recording bias is the basis of Dolby HX (which is a record-only process used in addition to Dolby B or C). An audio signal with lots of high frequencies contributes towards the bias, and tends to overbias the tape. So Dolby HX dynamically accordingly reduces the bias signal when there is a lot of high frequency content.

Howto record tapes

Reply #12 –
Dolby HX Pro, Dolby B NR, Auto BIAS Equalization:
I always used Type II cassettes since some players aren't compatible with Type IV Metal tapes. Source was always CD.

Dolby HX Pro, Dolby S NR, Auto BIAS Equalization:
I would use either Type I or Type II cassettes. Source was always CD.

Dolby B NR, and Dolby S NR sound significantly different to me.

According to the docs from my JVC tape recorder Dolby S NR can be played back on a deck with Dolby B NR. Never found much usage for Dolby C NR since I've only seen some mid-priced to high-priced decks that support it in record and playback.

The DB level I would determine by getting the peak off a CD and then adjust the record level as close to 0 DB as humanly possible so as to not introduce distortion.

Quote
I'm suprised that no one has mentioned cost effectiveness. 

In the long run it will be more cost effective to put a cd or cd/mp3 deck in the car.  You'll quickly spend more $ on tapes.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310198"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yep, it would be a big savings and no fiddling with long recording sessions.

Howto record tapes

Reply #13 –
Quote
Madrigal: I may have misinterpreted what you're saying here, but I read it as saying that you get better *playback* of chrome/metal tapes if you set the deck to normal bias. Well, if that's what you *are* saying, then I'm afraid I have some bad news for you: bias has nothing to do with playback; it is purely a recording issue. A high-frequency bias signal is added to the audio signal during recording as means of getting the signal registered in the magnetic particles on the tape.
....
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310264"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


cliveb, I think you mix up bias and preemphasis here. Everything you said about bias ist right of course, but additionally type II and IV tapes are recorded with another preemphasis than type I, so that the hf level on the tape is higher. To compensate this, for playback the deemphasis has to be adapted. When you play a type II tape (70 µs) with type I setting (120 µs), you will get more hf content, which under some conditions (car, bad tape player, misaligned playback head...) sounds better then the correct deemphasis

Howto record tapes

Reply #14 –
Quote
cliveb, I think you mix up bias and preemphasis here. Everything you said about bias ist right of course, but additionally type II and IV tapes are recorded with another preemphasis than type I, so that the hf level on the tape is higher.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310276"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm well aware of the difference between record bias and record/playback EQ, and your response has made me realise that I was led astray by the references to bias. The tapes were probably recorded "correctly" (ie. with chrome/metal bias and 70us EQ), but by selecting "normal" during replay, you get 120us EQ and a consequent increase in high frequencies. So the effect observed by Madrigal is most likely due to playback EQ, and nothing to do with bias.

Howto record tapes

Reply #15 –
Thanks for all your answers so far. First, my deck autodetects the type, I wasn't even aware that there are differences, but by googling I found out I am using CrO2/Type II tapes (maxell SQ for that matter).
I don't really know wether her car stereo supports Dolby * or not, it's a Blaupunkt CAR 300 and I wasn't able to find a manual for it on the web. From listening tests with my tapedeck I found out that I can 100% distinguish Dolby B from no Dolby because of the change in the high frequencies, but since Dolby B greatly reduces the noise floor in silent passages I will use it anyway.

As for cost, 3 tapes are 0.50€ I don't really think thats too expensive at all. I am sure she isn't willing to buy a new car stereo since the car is also used by her family, plus she is saving for a new Thinkpad at the moment

On a sidenote, something non-techincal: It is a nice expericene after being used to just dragging any songs you might want to hear to CD-R where you have hundrets of minutes depending on kps, when you really have only 90min on the tape, and you have to choose carefully which songs make it in and which don't. Plus since there's no shuffle button on a tapedeck also the order of the songs becomes important. I read the Tips for great Mix CDs thread with great interest. Try it for yourself you wouldn't belief how few songs you can fit on a tape when you have 5+ playlists open in foobar where every single one is at least 2 screen pages long.
Blubb

Howto record tapes

Reply #16 –
Quote
I don't really know wether her car stereo supports Dolby * or not, it's a Blaupunkt CAR 300 and I wasn't able to find a manual for it on the web.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310352"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are very few cassette players around these days that *don't* have Dolby B; chances are very high that it has at least that.

Quote
From listening tests with my tapedeck I found out that I can 100% distinguish Dolby B from no Dolby because of the change in the high frequencies, but since Dolby B greatly reduces the noise floor in silent passages I will use it anyway.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310352"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Provided the Dolby calibration is correct, there is no loss of high frequencies over the record/playback cycle. It could well be that what you perceive as a loss of high frequencies is a psychoacoustic effect caused by the reduction in tape hiss.

Howto record tapes

Reply #17 –
Dolby A, B, C NR, Dolby HX
Type I, II, IV CRO2 / Metal
Bias selector switches
High speed dubs (ick)

Dear god I'm glad that cassette is a dead format (almost).

A while back a good friend bought a multitrack and I volunteered to help him put together some stuff with his band. All tape. Recording, then mixing down over and over to more tape. Then dubbing tape to give to friends.

A year later CD-R drives hit consumer level at reasonable prices and I got a 4x/2x cdrw. We met up that summer and I did the same thing on computer for music he had been working on solo during college. Each step one time only. Ran off a dozen copies -- good enough since he could do more perfect himself.

Howto record tapes

Reply #18 –
I apologize for waking a dead thread (and I may have missed something), but...

.... wouldn't it just be simpler to use a CD-to-cassette adapter with a portable CD player?

Howto record tapes

Reply #19 –
I used one for months but found out that the wires are quite flimsily fastened and started to loosen and short within ~6 months? of daily use, hours at a time.  Granted it was the one that came in the package with the Discman...  Yeah I ended up using electrical tape to keep a decent connection with it.
"Have you ever been with a woman? It's like death. You moan, you scream and then you start to beg for mercy, for salvation"
 

Howto record tapes

Reply #20 –
Record an album on normal bias, not terribly expensive, tape and have her tell you if it is alright. Most cars are a retched place to listen to music anyway and going to any extreme for HiFi quality will never make a difference that the listerner will care about in the least.  Of course there are exceptions, the ones that make the rule.