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Topic: Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi (Read 11048 times) previous topic - next topic
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Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

This post in particular

Anyone care to pick out the truth and untruth in this guy's statement? I know the basic fallacy in his argument - that small theoretical differences (he started going on about differences on the quantum level at the end) will be picked up by the human ear, and not by well-calibrated equipment - but he's got far more of an engineering background than I do, despite the dubious claims he's justifying with it.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #1 –
No.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #2 –
Quote
Why do these people even go into the cable forum if they don't believe in cables, have no experience in listening to them, are not looking for cable recommendations, have basically nothing to offer, and think the other people in there are dopes and morons in the first place?

Even though he is a hypocrite, he is absolutely right with the above quote, imho. Leave the idiots alone in peace if you dont like em - thats what such forums are there for - giving them a place to live, so that other communities dont have to endure them. Moron-camps are perfectly valid - the only other choices would be to either shoot them, or have them contaminate useful places
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #3 –
Quote
Anyone care to pick out the truth and untruth in this guy's statement?
You're getting few takers because few people have the knowledge to refute the claims in detail. Of those, few have the spare time to post yet more audio voodoo debunking. And I wouldn't be surprised if disproving the details required some math that us laypeople wouldn't grok.

Quote
I know the basic fallacy in his argument - that small theoretical differences (he started going on about differences on the quantum level at the end) will be picked up by the human ear, and not by well-calibrated equipment -
So? You've figured it out. I'm no audio or electrical engineer, so I can't prove or disprove his postulates. But even in all the physical effects he described are true he never came anywhere close to showing that these changes, measurable or immeasurable, produce an end result that humans can detect. He just takes that for granted. At the point that he says: "The fact that different audio cables do affect system performance differently" you should hear alarm bells. He's just put the theory he's defending into the "facts" or postulates of his argument.

Also "quantum level" is pure BS. That I do know. Sound has nothing to do with any sort of quantum effects what-so-ever. And the electrical stuff involved with cables and such is also totally describable with classical physics.

Quote
but he's got far more of an engineering background than I do, despite the dubious claims he's justifying with it.
This is a variation of the fallacy "appeal to authority". Just because someone knows a lot of big words and can string them together in the right ways doesn't make them right. Check out various Intelligent Design "science" literature -- they use the same type of logic and rapid fire verbiage.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #4 –
I've heard some differences when the cables are extremely large compared to short ones, mainly a loss of high frequencies. This statement might not hold, since I didn't do blind tests, but then again I wasn't expecting to hear differences, I just happened to hear that (and I was like 12yo).

But seriously, can cable thickness/material/brand/etc make an audible difference assuming same length cables?

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #5 –
Quote
But seriously, can cable thickness/material/brand/etc make an audible difference assuming same length cables?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322233"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If they are really badly manufactured, then maybe. We're not talking about 100$ wire vs. 1000$ wire here - but more like 3$ wire vs. 25$ wire. To make it clear: i am talking about manufacturing quality and shielding - when the wires near the connectors almost fall apart, then this is obviously gonna result in some annoyances ;-)
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #6 –
No matter how "good" the speaker wires are, the quality of the wires inside the amp, those which attach to the board you hook your cables to is what is important.  Look at them sometime.  They are usually bell wire.  If you think that super expensive cables fed by bell wire is a good idea, go for it.   
Nov schmoz kapop.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #7 –
Conductor resistance is proportional to length and inversely proportional to conductor size.  The shorter it is, the smaller it can be.  Example, I use 4g cable in the car, but the conductor size of the fuse is very small.  Although, it can still carry 60 amps over its length.  If the whole 4 metre run of cable was the same size as the fusible link, resistive losses would be significant, and the system wouldnt work.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #8 –
I too, have spent alot of money on power cables...not for sound but for my computer monitor. I found visual nirvana entirely by accident. I was on my desk trying to plug a firewire cable into the back of the comp case while holding a butcher's knife in my right hand. I slipped while on the desk and the knife came down on the monitor's power cord in a glancing fashion. The blow stripped off part of the jacket and had embedded itself about halfway into the hot lead (missed the neutral & ground leads). I left the knife in the cord as it was stuck there but thankfully wasn't arching out on anything. The monitor still worked and indeed looked different in ways that are scientifically indescribable. Somehow the damaged power cord with the additional conductive steel blade broadened the color palette from what was "closed in" or restrictive.

I couldn't leave it that way so I killed the power, pulled the knife out, then repaired the power cord. Over time, I became less satisfied with the performance of the repaired stock power cable (compared to it's freak accident state) as it seemed to be clamping down on vitality of the screen...colors seemed bright yet subdued, and gradient areas seemed to lack cohesiveness. I still had that "It only carries voltage & current" mentality in regards to power cords, so I thought that some other component must be going bad. I tried several different video cards set at 32 bit true color and they did not improve the display quality. I knew it wasn't the monitor weakening either, as it was less than a year old and still had a strong gun in it.

I started to suspect the monitor's video cable as I did notice that someone had written some kanji on the cable with a Sharpie and there were dirty fingerprints (probably mine) on the thumbscrews at the "D" connector end. I sent the monitor back over to Sony in Japan and had them replace the cable. No change. What the hell I said...could it be the power cord? I needed some colorful images to display for comparison purposes so I hit the rotten.com site and pulled up some accident photos. I then pulled the electrical tape off and stuck the butcher knife back in the damaged spot and sat back down in front of the screen. A wave of natural endorphins washed over my brain as the images now sprung to life with the hacked cord. The vast improvement in quality left me emotionally drained for days.

I ignored the danger of the sharp, electrically hot blade and left it there...then went shopping for power cables. I went through several before settling on PS Audio XStream Plus's as the visual quality on the monitor was closest to that of the hacked cord. Though markl noted suffocating highs, I noticed no problems at the higher end of the visible light spectrum. My theory on the damaged cord is that the knife acts as a "sink" for the even numbered higher order harmonics off the base 60 Hz signal, which prevents them from reaching the monitor (which can alter the frequency of the photons coming off the phosphors, especially in the 600 to 700 nm range). The shielding on the XStream's must do exactly the same thing but just less effectively. The difference must be that the knife removes the harmonics, while shielding weakens but doesn't prevent them from radiating through the air.

Stick to your guns markl! Jesus was scoffed for his beliefs too!
No one can be told what Ogg Vorbis is...you have to hear it for yourself
- Morpheus

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #9 –
Quote
I too,
(...)
but doesn't prevent them from radiating through the air.

Almost believable 

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #10 –
Quote
Quote
Why do these people even go into the cable forum if they don't believe in cables, have no experience in listening to them, are not looking for cable recommendations, have basically nothing to offer, and think the other people in there are dopes and morons in the first place?

Even though he is a hypocrite, he is absolutely right with the above quote, imho. Leave the idiots alone in peace if you dont like em - thats what such forums are there for - giving them a place to live, so that other communities dont have to endure them. Moron-camps are perfectly valid - the only other choices would be to either shoot them, or have them contaminate useful places
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322229"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Completely agree.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #11 –
Quote
This post in particular

Anyone care to pick out the truth and untruth in this guy's statement? I know the basic fallacy in his argument - that small theoretical differences (he started going on about differences on the quantum level at the end) will be picked up by the human ear, and not by well-calibrated equipment - but he's got far more of an engineering background than I do, despite the dubious claims he's justifying with it.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322220"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I suggest that you ask him to prove that his arguements are true, instead of just throwing incoherent science theory in your face.
The most common strategy for people like him, is just confusing the counterpart with his established "believability" in the community which you debate in, adding a lot of variables to the discussion that he by intuition, knows you wont be able to decipher.

One example is when I discussed with some guy on some forum (I am being very detailed indeed). This guy, was some sort of "mademan" in the forum, meaning he could do or say whatever he wanted, and everybody would think it's all cool.
When he discovered that I had absolutely no regard to his pre-established "authority", he started to use language which he by intuition knew that I would not be able to argue against. Stuff like latin expressions, and offtopic arguements which still couldnt ring my "this is offtopic"-bell.


The only way I see you could disprove this guy, is clearing your head and taking a deep breath.

edit: Spelling
Pusk is the new Start.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #12 –
Quote
This post in particular

Anyone care to pick out the truth and untruth in this guy's statement? I know the basic fallacy in his argument - that small theoretical differences (he started going on about differences on the quantum level at the end) will be picked up by the human ear, and not by well-calibrated equipment - but he's got far more of an engineering background than I do, despite the dubious claims he's justifying with it.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322220"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well it's mostly twoddle, what bits of truth there are in there are utterly irrrelevant to audio frequencies. But surely you'd expect nothing different from people who can describe a cable as having "Suffocated highs, no air, and suprisingly average bass for an 8-guage cable." etc.? Oh, and then there's the sarcastic finale about you being a dependant minor? Best advice has already been given - leave the idiots in peace and self-delusion!

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #13 –
You can't convince a believer that his belief is not true. The reason is simple: belief does not depend on established fact. Belief can even run contrary to established facts.

Trying to disprove his claims is pointless. You're not going to convince him, and anybody who is gullible enough to believe the things he says will not be convinced by your mere "logic" and "fact" no matter how much of it you throw at the problem.

Try convincing a truly religious christian that there is no god. When you come up with a solid and established method for doing that, then you'll have a shot at convincing believers in the "cable myth".

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #14 –
Proving that something that doesn't exist actually doesn't exist is impossible when we talk about abstract ideas. Don't go there

As to getting good quality power cables and line filters, that would be a good idea. The power in your wall socket is pretty dirty. Voltage fluktuations galore. Good hifi components should with good quality powersupplies be able to live with that, but still... getting normal, good power cables with no knives in them  and a line filter to smoothe out the power could quite possibly make a difference.

Interconnect cables and loudspeaker cables? As long as the connectors fit and clean and the cables themselves are of reasonable thickness they should be OK. Also, antenna cables should be well shielded -- put an extra $10 dollars there too

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #15 –
Quote
You're getting few takers because few people have the knowledge to refute the claims in detail. Of those, few have the spare time to post yet more audio voodoo debunking. And I wouldn't be surprised if disproving the details required some math that us laypeople wouldn't grok.


I love debunking ! Let me do it ! Let me do it !! 

Quote
Because of DC and AC resistance, the "sound" of a cable is really defined by how it alters the interaction between the source and load components.


That's true for audio cables, but we are talking about power cables.

Quote
AC resistance (impedance) is the result of both capacitive and inductive effects (reactance) and is far more relevant than DC resistance however.


They are equally relevant, and anyway, DC resistance is part of AC resistance.


Quote
AC resistance is perhaps the main source of the "voodoo" of audio cables since a given cable design will in principle cause different audio equipment to "behave" differently due to the substantial variation in both input and output impedance's of preamplifiers, power amplifiers, and front end units.


Thanks to the input and output impedance of the devices, the AC resistance of cables (called impedance) have no audible influence, except when cables are too long (hundreds of meters of interconnect cables, of tens of meters of speaker cable), or badly designed on purpose (+ and - strands of network cables braided together in order to increase capacity and cause a treble roll-off, like this one : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=148578

Quote
The "voodoo" reputation of audio cables is worsened by the apparent irrelevance of typical steady state measurements. Educated "cable cynics" are fond of pointing out that calculated frequency effects (3db down!) of the capacitative and inductive values of any normal audio cable at normal lengths are much higher than any audible frequency. This simplistic argument implies that that such delicate, complex and highly variable sonic qualities affected by different audio cables (or amplifiers for that matter) such as sound stage depth, image focus and ambience could be completely explained by simple frequency attenuation.


This part is correct.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #16 –
Quote
Indeed persistent attempts by solid state designers to clone the very unique manner in which vacuum tubes affect the audio signal by using simple tone networks have always been a laughable and dismal failure.


Maybe, but using the correct method, it has been a success. The tweaked transistor amplifier could not be distinguished from the tube one. Does someone have the reference of this experiment ?

Quote
While the "first order" effects of LC influenced frequency attenuation are well characterized, indirect effects of their time delay components on our perception of the more subtle aspects of playback are not.


Yes they are. 2bdecided or Wmax must have some tables in their documentation adout the smallest phase shift audible under different conditions.

Quote
One or two degrees of phase shift can be calculated in the audio band from capacitance whose frequency attenuation is well into the ultra-sonic regions. Exactly what one degree of phase shift and perhaps one tenth of a dB of attenuation may sound like is not known and is probably very unpredictable and extremely dependant on the particular source material.


They effect is very predictible and perfectly known : this is not audible at all.


Quote
Such small effects could not normally be seen since they would be hidden in the noise floor of measuring equipment. Instead actual their existence can only be suggested mathematically.


This is completely wrong. With a PC, a good soundcard, and the RMAA software, you can measure frequency attenuation down to 0.01 dB. That can be seen on the interconnect cables frequency measurments I've done here : http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29781210

Quote
The fact that different audio cables do affect system performance differently would be especially challenging to defend if all audio cables had identical LC measurements. Luckily, this is not the case, as different interconnect and speaker cable designs result in easily measurable variations in capacitance and inductance respectively. Aside from the resulting differences in phase shift by degree, placed into the big picture of impedance, seemingly modest differences in LC measurements calculate to substantial differences in impedance (frequency variant) and characteristic impedance (frequency invariant) especially with speaker cables. Measurable differences in amplifier damping (which produces a rainbow sonic aberrations to the listener) have been easily demonstrated with different speaker cable designs, all of whose direct effects on frequency response alone should have been inconsequential!


The amplifier damping only affects the frequency response, if I'm not mistaken, and as I said, only cables badly designed on puspose exhibit this effect. Standard speaker and interconnect cables don't affect the sound. They are completely transparent.

Quote
Furthermore, with the exception of digital cables, no audio interconnect or speaker cable can be terminated in their exact characteristic impedance


That's right.

Quote
a condition that theoretically results in 100% power transfer (zero power loss)


That's wrong, you're forgetting the DC resistance.

Quote
Therefore, all audio cables create some degree, though very slight, of so called "mismatch reflections" between source and load.


That's right, but since the cables are thousand times shorter than the electrical wavelenght, these reflections can be discarded.

Quote
It is then reasonable to assume that audio cable designs that happen to come closer to an ideal impedance should in principle reduce these distortions.


The ideal impedance is the impedance, from this point of view, of the speaker, which can't be reproduced by the characteristic impedance of a cable. But the point is that thanks to the low output impedance of the amplifier, and the relatively high impedance of the speaker, compared to the amplifier and the cable ones, even if these reflections would pollute the signal inside the cable, it would not affect the signal fed inside the speakers, thanks to the complete impedance mismatch between the three component (ampli, cable, speaker).

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #17 –
Quote
Other possible reasons are the effects of inter-modulation distortions caused by varying susceptibilities of different cable designs to low frequency interference


This doesn't cause intermodulation.

Quote
and the nature of unique "beat frequencies" generated when higher frequencies react against lower ones (heterodyning).


Their nature is spectral, like any other frequency.

Quote
The former is strongly a function of geometry since conventional shielding alone cannot block very low frequency EMI.


It can. Low frequency EMI interference can indeed be a problem with esoteric high end interconnect cables, that is not shielded at all. With standard cables, no problem.

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The latter is especially appealing since most exotic audio cables measure differently enough that their response to ultra-sonic frequencies (generated as harmonics of amplification stages themselves) would vary substantially as well.


The amplification doesn't generate ultrasonic frequencies. And it what way the fact that they are prone to EMI interference would affect their ultrasonic response, and even if it was the case, why should we care, since these frequencies are inaudible, and we don't care about the fidelity of amplifier distortion ?

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When the complexity of each of these phenomenon's alone are considered against the staggering complexity of a real musical signal at the "quantum level", it is clear we are a long way from being able to truly understand the electronic behavior of any audio equipment under "real life" conditions.


In what is it not understood ? Baxandall in 1977 and Belcher in 1985 (http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm) have proven that we were perfectly capable of designing completely transparent power amplifiers for much less than the price tag of audiophile ones.

Quote
Thus the effects of high performance audio cables remain among the purest demonstrations of the limitations of the study natural science; which is the disparity between the naturally occurring phenomenon and the measured, simulated version of reality.


Blind listening test have solved this problem : in blind listening tests, like the ones reported here :
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtop...r=asc&start=255
or here :
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4...ds-12-2004.html
the disparity comes from the listener's interpretation, who imagines things, and not from the cables, that do not affect the sound.

Links :

Cable myths debunked :
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audiop...iples/index.php

Some speaker cables frequency responses :
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....50&#entry135916
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=148578

Some interconnect cables frequency responses :
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29781210

Speaker cables characteristic impedance :
http://sound.westhost.com/cable-z.htm

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #18 –
Quote
That I do know. Sound has nothing to do with any sort of quantum effects what-so-ever. And the electrical stuff involved with cables and such is also totally describable with classical physics.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322232"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Actually, the only things that are not quantic are specificly relativist phenomenon, like space-time distortion, black holes etc. Quantics, in theory, can explain all classical phenomenons.
From this point of view, sound, high-fidelity, cables, are all quantic objects.

Moreover, a diode is an exclusively quantic device ! Classical physics can not explain how it can let the current flow in one direction and not in the other ! Only the differences in the energy bands (which is a quantic concept) of the electrons in the different parts of the semiconductor can explain this.


Edit : removed the transistor example, that is more complicated.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #19 –
Excerpt:
"Why do these people even go into the cable forum if they don't believe in cables, ..."


"...believe in cables..."  That's the heart of the problem.  Is there a "cable god"?    I prefer empirical evidence to faith-based "belief".

As it was said earlier in this thread, you're (almost) never going to convince a believer to change their beliefs by using the scientific method.

All the rest, "no experience, nothing to offer, ..." is just projecting their lack of desire to seek measured evidence on those of us who do have such a desire and place value in it, and specifically when it disproves their pre-determined "beliefs".

I'm just glad Pio's here to provide his extensive knowledge to debunk this odd tendency to "believe in cables". 
Sometimes you have to jump off the cliff and build your wings on the way down.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #20 –
Quote
I love debunking ! Let me do it ! Let me do it !! 


And now for an effect which is actually real

Since we are actually transfering power to the speakers the physical amount of copper (or whatever metal you happen to be using) makes a difference to the amount of power lost via heating of the cable. Now the amount of the conductor which is actually involved in transference is inversely proportional to the frequency. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

Hence almost all cables are multi-strand. Which also has the nice side effect that they can be made flexible.

Some systems use multistrand cables for the full range cabs and solid for sub woofers. Since high power PA systems can lose between 10% and 20% of their amplifier power in the speaker cables this can make a huge difference. The trend is towards active cabls now so long power transfer rather than signal transmission cables runs aren't needed.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #21 –
Quote
" Informal listening tests have the weakness of being affected by placebo"
Thats interesting and probably true. So does informal sex.


To an extent this guy clearly know's what he is talking about in terms of engineering, but as Pio pointed it out he might be the telling the truth, but his point is moot.  I wish I took a class in physics to really understand all of the terminology difference between alternating current and direct current (maybe I will sooner or later) I understand a little bit, but his unwillingness to provide any listening tests is absurd.  He just appears to be another prententious stereophile seeking status for their $2,000 cables. 
budding I.T professional

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #22 –
Quote
Quote
But seriously, can cable thickness/material/brand/etc make an audible difference assuming same length cables?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322233"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If they are really badly manufactured, then maybe. We're not talking about 100$ wire vs. 1000$ wire here - but more like 3$ wire vs. 25$ wire. To make it clear: i am talking about manufacturing quality and shielding - when the wires near the connectors almost fall apart, then this is obviously gonna result in some annoyances ;-)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322234"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Wow, I must have been high yesterday, I thought the whole thread was about speaker cable not power cord cables.

Shouldn't they be better off buying a surge protector with line conditioning than with a USD$2500 power cord? I'd blame audible differences to crappy electricity in the house and not to the power cord, in fact, do these guys actually bother to put some $1000 cable within the walls of their house and use $3000 fuses?

DAMN, there's people with too much money and time on their hands.

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #23 –
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks for that link. It itself links to this one : [a href="http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/skineffect/page1.html]http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_...fect/page1.html[/url]

At last a complete calculation of skin effect, including inductance, and much more stuff

Confronted by cable manufacturer on Head-fi

Reply #24 –
Quote
do these guys actually bother to put some $1000 cable within the walls of their house and use $3000 fuses?.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322407"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, rhodium outlets are quite popular among audiophiles, and audiophile fuses have made a discrete appearance.