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Topic: FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source (Read 18077 times) previous topic - next topic
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FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Hello,

I'm just encode my first CD into FLAC for archiving...

1. Setting up EAC as described here: http://www.angelfire.com/magic2/hq-audio/l...-setup-all.html
2. Rip CD into multiple .wav files (since I'm won't burn the files to CD so there's no use ripping the CD into the image with cue sheet)
3. Use FLAC Frontend to encode the files.

Then, use foobar2000 to ABX the .flac files and .wav files.

Result: I can ABX them all with zero guess percent, know what??? The .wav files are much louder then the .flac files.

OK, I know that louder or dimmer isn't indicate that the sound quality is loss or something, but why so? Or my foobar2000 have some problem?

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #1 –
somethings wrong on your end.  FLAC files *are* lossless.  A couple culprits may be using the DSP or enabling replaygain when ABXing in foobar2000.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #2 –
Maybe you're adding replaygain info without realizing it...?

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #3 –
FLAC files are lossless, end of discussion.

Small note: When you ABX audio files you should always decode the compressed one to PCM. Because otherwise the quality and settings for the decoding routine in the ABX player might make the test results incorrect.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #4 –
I think the flac encoder adds replaygain tags by default.  right-click on the flac file in foobar and look at its properties.  You'll probably see something like "replaygain_xxxx_gain" under "technical info" ("xxxx" = either "album" or "track").

As unfortunateson said, you should disable replaygain when trying to ABX the flac and the wav files.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #5 –
Quote
FLAC files are lossless, end of discussion.

Small note: When you ABX audio files you should always decode the compressed one to PCM. Because otherwise the quality and settings for the decoding routine in the ABX player might make the test results incorrect.
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So what's the point? Do you decode your FLAC musics before you listen to them???

btw, I'll try to re-encode the FLAC file again to check if I've done something wrong.

And, as I stated, the sound loudness doesn't indicate the sound quality, AFAIK.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #6 –
Quote
Quote
FLAC files are lossless, end of discussion.

Small note: When you ABX audio files you should always decode the compressed one to PCM. Because otherwise the quality and settings for the decoding routine in the ABX player might make the test results incorrect.

So what's the point? Do you decode your FLAC musics before you listen to them???

No I dont.
But this discussion is not about replay quality, its about FLAC beeing lossless or not (Look at your Topic). To find if an encoder is lossy or not you first need to encode then decode, then compare to the source. If the PCM stream are identical there have been no data loss.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #7 –
For your information. FLAC also plays back losslessly. If not there would have to be some serious faults in the decoding and playback implementation.

Of course this does not hold in case the user activates replaygain or any kind of dsps.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #8 –
Trying to correlate a file's volume to its "losslessness" makes no sense, IMO. Throwing away data doesn't make a lossless file softer; it corrupts it. If a FLAC file were not lossless, you would be getting audible decoding glitches and errors.

Again, there is a simple way of objectively determining if a lossless file isn't "lossless:" decode it back to PCM and compare it's size with the original wav file.

(Edit: spelling)

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #9 –
Quote
Again, there is a simple way of objectively determining if a lossless file isn't "lossless:" decode it back to PCM and compare it's size with the original wav file.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318895"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's size doesn't have to be different to be non-lossless, LPCM is linear as the name suggests so unless the length changes the file size will not. You can use foobar2000's bitcompare component however and every major lossless format (LA, OptimFROG, WavPack, Monkey's, FLAC) has been tested extensively (LA's foobar2000 plugin is actually lossy which is noted in the wiki).

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #10 –
Quote
I think the flac encoder adds replaygain tags by default.

Only when --replay-gain is specified in the command line...

-Martin.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #11 –
Quote
Quote
Again, there is a simple way of objectively determining if a lossless file isn't "lossless:" decode it back to PCM and compare it's size with the original wav file.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318895"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's size doesn't have to be different to be non-lossless, LPCM is linear as the name suggests so unless the length changes the file size will not. You can use foobar2000's bitcompare component however and every major lossless format (LA, OptimFROG, WavPack, Monkey's, FLAC) has been tested extensively (LA's foobar2000 plugin is actually lossy which is noted in the wiki).
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Yeah, that's what I really meant: comparing bits, not filesize. I just couldn't think of a good way to put it 

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #12 –
Quote
OK, I know that louder or dimmer isn't indicate that the sound quality is loss or something, but why so? Or my foobar2000 have some problem?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318854"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Quote
And, as I stated, the sound loudness doesn't indicate the sound quality, AFAIK.
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Oh, I can see you are all mis-understanding me

I know that FLAC is lossless, and lossless is (of course) lossless.

But I have some strange result encoding them, so I make it appear here, and make the thread title look a lil bit "appealling" lol... so don't blame me for the losslessness of FLAC

I just wonder why my FLAC files' volume aren't as loud as the sources.

Thank you.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #13 –
We've already told you.  Replaygain is the likely culprit.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #14 –
Quote
I just wonder why my FLAC files' volume aren't as loud as the sources.
could you please stop spreading such false claims? as it was said, there is a very simple method of ruling out flac itself: do a bit-compare to the original. logic dictates that if they are identical, then _any_ perceived difference is beyond the format and likely based on some later processing.

of course one has to know that there is a concept called replay-gain, which is applied only theoretically in the form of tags which a decoder can use to modify the data on-the-fly while playing back. it does not alter the original data.

i mean really, it doesn't help when people go around spouting stuff like "when i rip my cd losslessly and play it on my computer it sounds different than the original in my car cd player, hence lossless is not lossless and sucks!" or similar. of course one has to be able to accept the simple fact that bit-identical input means identical output and if it doesn't, then it's not the format's fault.

what i just wrote is likely redundant but i had to get it off.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #15 –
If it really is ReplayGain, you ought to be able to fidget with the RG pregain controls in the Playback config and hear a loudness change in the FLAC. Or you could use a music player that supports FLAC but not ReplayGain and see if it goes away.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #16 –
Quote
If it really is ReplayGain, you ought to be able to fidget with the RG pregain controls in the Playback config and hear a loudness change in the FLAC. Or you could use a music player that supports FLAC but not ReplayGain and see if it goes away.
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Or you could just disable replaygain in the players preferences.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #17 –
Quote
could you please stop spreading such false claims?
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I'm sorry

Still don't know why .flac files are play will lower volume

I think it's the replaygain also, but don't find anything wrong when I'm encoding - playing them.

Gotta try on another computer...

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #18 –
Maybe it is a good idea to load one of those FLAC files in foobar, do a right mouse click and choose properties. Then, copy - paste the information your seeing in the right column in a post here.

Maybe we can see from the file properties if anything is wrong.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #19 –
This can all be solved very easily.

1). Open FLAC Frontend.
2). See if the Replaygain box is checked.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #20 –
The replaygain box is not check when I encode the PCM files.

foobar2000 reports these:

FLAC_vendor = reference libFLAC 1.1.0 20030126
bitrate = 985
samplerate = 44100
channels = 2
bitspersample = 16
codec = FLAC
----------
12673752 samples @ 44100Hz
File size: 35 381 534 bytes

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #21 –
Quote
The replaygain box is not check when I encode the PCM files.

foobar2000 reports these:

FLAC_vendor = reference libFLAC 1.1.0 20030126
bitrate = 985
samplerate = 44100
channels = 2
bitspersample = 16
codec = FLAC
----------
12673752 samples @ 44100Hz
File size: 35 381 534 bytes
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I see no Replaygain information in the properties, so that is not likely to be the problem.

If you decode the FLAC file back to PCM, is the sound volume back to the original level?

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #22 –
The newest version of Foobar comes with a FLAC decoder installed, perhaps you could download the decoder from the FLAC website and see if there is any difference in performance.

I have noticed the same thing on some files I FLAC encoded and play in FOO, but in this case I know the replay gain option was checked in the encoder when I encoded them. I plan to replace these files eventually.

Note that replaygain is on by default in some FLAC front ends. Make sure that you use the verify option while encoding the stream, this assures a bit perfect encode.

Also there is a tradeoff between speed and accuracy of the encoding that FLAC allows you to make.. Since you will only encode once I would choose the slowest, most accurate encoding option.

FOO: Also make sure that there is nothing enabled under DSP in preferences, particularly the volume control - it produces distortion that is quite audible in my system.

Audio: Are you using ASIO or something else to support streaming audio? ASIO can be configured to prevent resampling of 44.1kHz media to the default 48kHz sampling rate used by windows. Sounds a lot better!

In my very limited experience FLAC makes very good quality sounding files, raw wave files from EAC sound no better from what I have been able to determine.

Kevin

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #23 –
Quote
Also there is a tradeoff between speed and accuracy of the encoding that FLAC allows you to make.. Since you will only encode once I would choose the slowest, most accurate encoding option.
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Erm? The only tradeoff is between compressed file size and encoding speed. That's the very point of lossless audio compression.
A riddle is a short sword attached to the next 2000 years.

FLAC files play quieter than WAVE source

Reply #24 –
Quote
In my very limited experience FLAC makes very good quality sounding files, raw wave files from EAC sound no better from what I have been able to determine.
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Like ssamadhi97 said, that's exactly the point of lossless formats like FLAC. They (should) be the same as the original after decoding and thus sound the same.

FrzzMan, you could try to encode a small WAV file, 5 MB or so, and upload both the WAV and the FLAC file in the uploads section of this forum. This way we can check if we hear any volume differences. If not, something is wrong with your foobar settings.