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  • batagy
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #25
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Is there a way to rip unencrypted DVD-A then?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302050"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Though I never tried, I think unencypted DVD-Audio discs can be copied simply extracting to an ISO, and then burning that ISO. For example with DVD Decrypter with ISO Mode.

  • 2Bdecided
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #26
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SACD vs. DVD-Audio is a race that nobody cares about.  Remember that LPs outsell SACD and DVD-Audio COMBINED in 2005.  They are both technically somewhat interesting and commercially a bad joke.  I really doubt that merely unencrypting either format can save them from the DAT/8-track/DCC/Elcasette dustbin of audio debacles.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302005"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


...which means that we might have seen the last global physical audio format: the CD. That's it. End of the physical media story. It's lossy stereo audio files from now on.

That would be quite sad, because multichannel, done well, is fantastic. Not that you find much fantastic multichannel on DVD-A! Also, only having lossy content available would be a great shame!


It would be interesting if some audiophile record companies could "make a go" of a dedicated high quality audio format. It would have to be based on DVD-V or DVD-A (or CD!), but without some of the red tape, and with much better use of multichannel than conventional 5.1.

You see, it's often said that audiophiles aren't a large enough number of people to support an audio format (so SACD and DVD-A are both doomed) - but surely there are enough people who care about quality to allow a niche product (that piggybacks on something mainstream) to survive? If it can be read, decoded, and played in a standard PC with a 2 or 3 of stereo sound cards, that's a good start!

Cheers,
David.

  • qristus
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #27
Just wondering, where is the decryption being done in standalone players? Surely it can't be integrated into the DAC? Because as long as it's being done before the data reaches the DAC all you need to do is:

- Find the signal and clock signal pins coming into the DAC
- Solder on a S/PDIF encoding chip and connector

and you have a player with an unrestricted S/PDIF out. While this obviously isn't something the average consumer is prepared to do, it's not exactly rocket science either - anyone with some electronics skills and an oscilloscope should be able to do it (although I guess you might need special soldering tools depending on the DAC's packaging, and perhaps they add extra-special tamper-proofing like a big sign above the DAC saying "this is not a DAC").

This doesn't defeat any watermarking, of course, but really - who cares? As far as I know, you can still pay cash at a music store, and nobody is going to ask for your name and address :-)

This just illustrates what I've always found to be the major problem with copy protection - the only ones who suffers from it are the consumers. With sufficient dedication, any protection can be removed. As soon as it's removed, any copies made are hassle-free, while the people who want to "do the right thing" have to jump through hoops to use the content they paid for in the way they want to - if they're able to at all.

Seriously - I have two copy-protected CDs which I've been forced to make copies of to be able to play them in my standalone DVD player. When you're selling a product which can be copied without hassle (it took me about 15 minutes in total) but refuses to play back - the purpose for which it was presumably intended - I think there's something seriously flawed with your business logic.

  • cynix
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #28
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Just wondering, where is the decryption being done in standalone players? Surely it can't be integrated into the DAC? Because as long as it's being done before the data reaches the DAC all you need to do is:

- Find the signal and clock signal pins coming into the DAC
- Solder on a S/PDIF encoding chip and connector

and you have a player with an unrestricted S/PDIF out. While this obviously isn't something the average consumer is prepared to do, it's not exactly rocket science either - anyone with some electronics skills and an oscilloscope should be able to do it (although I guess you might need special soldering tools depending on the DAC's packaging, and perhaps they add extra-special tamper-proofing like a big sign above the DAC saying "this is not a DAC").

This has been done for a few specific DVD player models. The add-on board costs about $800.

  • cynix
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #29
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Though I never tried, I think unencypted DVD-Audio discs can be copied simply extracting to an ISO, and then burning that ISO. For example with DVD Decrypter with ISO Mode.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302057"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But then how do you encode it with flac or wavpack or tta or whatever.

  • batagy
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #30
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But then how do you encode it with flac or wavpack or tta or whatever.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Extracting the sound to wav is somewhat difficult, there are specifications how DVD-Audio zone elements (AOB, SAMG, AMG, ASVS) contains the audio information. Check dvda-author software site for informations about burning DVD-Audio and specifications:
[a href="http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/]http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/[/url]
At the moment I don't know any software which can extract wav from an unencrypted DVD-Audio.

  • ATWindsor
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #31
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...which means that we might have seen the last global physical audio format: the CD. That's it. End of the physical media story. It's lossy stereo audio files from now on.

That would be quite sad, because multichannel, done well, is fantastic. Not that you find much fantastic multichannel on DVD-A! Also, only having lossy content available would be a great shame!


Sound can just as well be multichannel and "non-lossy" (there is some loss of information anyway i guess, you aren't going to get unlimited sample-rate) without a physical media? Playing it on computers just makes it more felxible, 5.1 not good enough? release 7.1, all you need is a small software-upgrade (and new amp and speakers )

AtW

  • Defsac
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #32
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Just wondering, where is the decryption being done in standalone players? Surely it can't be integrated into the DAC? Because as long as it's being done before the data reaches the DAC all you need to do is:

- Find the signal and clock signal pins coming into the DAC
- Solder on a S/PDIF encoding chip and connector

and you have a player with an unrestricted S/PDIF out. While this obviously isn't something the average consumer is prepared to do, it's not exactly rocket science either - anyone with some electronics skills and an oscilloscope should be able to do it (although I guess you might need special soldering tools depending on the DAC's packaging, and perhaps they add extra-special tamper-proofing like a big sign above the DAC saying "this is not a DAC").[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302060"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, this method works although it's cost is rather prohibitive and I lack the skill to perform that kind of modification myself.

Quote
Seriously - I have two copy-protected CDs which I've been forced to make copies of to be able to play them in my standalone DVD player. When you're selling a product which can be copied without hassle (it took me about 15 minutes in total) but refuses to play back - the purpose for which it was presumably intended - I think there's something seriously flawed with your business logic.

From a business point of view it isn't a terrible idea. These measures are relatively cheap to implement, and the "experts" who pitch them to the businessmen vastly overstate their effectiveness. Most of these businessmen don't realise how ineffective they are in practice. The average record executive thinks copy protection methods stop the pirates while not inconveniencing legitimate users, for the most part blissfully ignorant of the fact the opposite is true in reality.

Part of the blame lies squarely with these people for not researching the effectiveness of protection technologies, granted (getting independent advice from a non-academic is a good start). I personally feel part of the blame also lies with the "experts".
  • Last Edit: 31 May, 2005, 06:31:29 PM by Defsac

  • krabapple
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #33
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Quote
SACD vs. DVD-Audio is a race that nobody cares about.  Remember that LPs outsell SACD and DVD-Audio COMBINED in 2005.  They are both technically somewhat interesting and commercially a bad joke.  I really doubt that merely unencrypting either format can save them from the DAT/8-track/DCC/Elcasette dustbin of audio debacles.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


...which means that we might have seen the last global physical audio format: the CD. That's it. End of the physical media story. It's lossy stereo audio files from now on.

That would be quite sad, because multichannel, done well, is fantastic. Not that you find much fantastic multichannel on DVD-A! Also, only having lossy content available would be a great shame!



Hardly, since there's still Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. on the very popular DVD format, for multichannel.  There's also DSP like Dolby Pro Logic II, which works for any stereo source and  I find does a very nice job of turnign stereo into 'multichannel' for many tracks.  And of course compression can be lossless (WMA Lossless, FLAC, Shorten, MLP etc) as a well as lossy.


Quote
It would be interesting if some audiophile record companies could "make a go" of a dedicated high quality audio format. It would have to be based on DVD-V or DVD-A (or CD!), but without some of the red tape, and with much better use of multichannel than conventional 5.1.



[a href="http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=13391]http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Detai...px?NewsId=13391[/url]

  • krabapple
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #34
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Moral of the story: unless you plan on never listening to a particular recording outside of your living room, don't buy DVD-A or SACD. Aside from the often-gimmicky multichannel capabilities, I've yet to see any compelling evidence that they do anything better than the plain-old CD's we've had laying around for twenty years.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=301964"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



While I agree that the 'superiority' fo DVD-A to Redbook for stereo playback is theoretical at best, FWIW, DVD-A fans aren't *totally* confined to home listening..if they drive an Acura RL.
  • Last Edit: 31 May, 2005, 03:48:44 PM by krabapple

  • 2Bdecided
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #35
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Hardly, since there's still Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. on the very popular DVD format, for multichannel.


I don't think 448kbps AC-3 5.1 is going to set the audiophile world alight, do you?

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http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Detai...px?NewsId=13391
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302211"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That's interesting - MLP can do a lot more than is currently realised in its DVD-A incarnation, so it could probably deliver lossless 24/192 9-channel 2nd order ambisonics on BlueRay if required and implemented. I wonder if they were mad enough to put that in the standard? I wonder if anyone will be mad enough to make a recording?

Still, that's probably a long way off. What I was thinking of was an audiophile standard that could build on DVD without requiring proprietary encoding.

Cheers,
David.

  • krabapple
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #36
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Quote
Hardly, since there's still Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. on the very popular DVD format, for multichannel.


I don't think 448kbps AC-3 5.1 is going to set the audiophile world alight, do you?


The audio market doesn't depend on setting the 'audiophile' world alight. And given some of the snake oil that *does* set the audiophile world alight, that's a good thing.

IMO 'audiophile' quality sound is already available on CD...just master the damn things right.

  • GeSomeone
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #37
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At the moment I don't know any software which can extract wav from an unencrypted DVD-Audio.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Steinberg [a href="http://www.steinberg.de/ProductPage_sb0f7f.html?Product_ID=2442&Langue_ID=4]WaveLab 5[/url] software can do it. But this is a costly package aimed at professionals.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

  • archagon
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #38
Wouldn't it be possible to create a reader that sets a computer's DVD laser to the beginning of a disk and then forces it to read and record every single byte in sequential order without any intermediary interpretation? That way, a bit-for-bit perfect DVD/DVDA ISO could be achieved without any unnecessary copy protection gymnastics.

Or -- I'm sorry -- is copying the actual disk not an issue?

Although DVDA and SACD are indeed rather prohibitive at the moment, I doubt their anti-piracy schematics will last. Too many customers are already weaned on portable media, and record/movie companies will eventually be forced to either brainwash the masses into submission or accept piracy as an inevitability. Success will come to the format, perhaps through an Apple lawsuit, or perhaps through some enterprising indie label that releases a series of unencrypted DVDAs.

Ooh! Off-topic, but take a look at this: http://www.portabledvdstore.com/pandvdpa6por.html
  • Last Edit: 02 June, 2005, 12:29:54 PM by archagon

  • rjamorim
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #39
Get up-to-date binaries of Lame, AAC, Vorbis and much more at RareWares:
http://www.rarewares.org

  • Hamman
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #40
Now that's really cool!
Does it rip the MLP streams directly do the HD? In that case, is there any software capable of decoding MLP streams?

  • rjamorim
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #41
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Now that's really cool!
Does it rip the MLP streams directly do the HD? In that case, is there any software capable of decoding MLP streams?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310992"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm not sure yet, but I suspect it also decodes the streams.

The only way to know for sure is testing it yourself
Get up-to-date binaries of Lame, AAC, Vorbis and much more at RareWares:
http://www.rarewares.org

How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #42
anyone had success in ripping DVD-A content with these programs, and if so, how?

  • rjamorim
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #43
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anyone had success in ripping DVD-A content with these programs, and if so, how?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311035"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The guy that suggested these tools to me told me he had success with them.

And answering to Hamman: yes, MLPs can be decoded. dvdaripper.exe just unencrypts the AOBs, so that you can later burn them to another DVD. And ppcmripper.exe can take these unencrypted AOBs and output high quality wavs out of them.
Get up-to-date binaries of Lame, AAC, Vorbis and much more at RareWares:
http://www.rarewares.org

  • skamp
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #44
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Does it rip the MLP streams directly do the HD? In that case, is there any software capable of decoding MLP streams?[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

DVDARipper.exe decrypts the AUDIO_TS files to the hard disk. You then have to burn them to a DVD-R, thus producing an unencrypted copy of the DVD-Audio.
Then you insert that DVD-R instead of the original DVD, and use PPCMRipper.exe. It actually launches WinDVD. There, you select the track(s) you want to play (you also often have the choice between 5.1 and stereo content). You need to play the tracks in real time, and in the mean time PPCMRipper.exe extracts the audio to .wav files on the hard drive. I noticed that you need to set up WinDVD properly in order to extract the right audio (check "24bit/96kHz output" and set up the target audio system to 5.1 in the "audio center").

In the end, the whole process is quite inconvenient (rip, burn, record), but at least we can finally rip our DVD-A's.

DVDAExplorer_a7.exe can extract the original .mlp files out of the unencrypted copy of the DVD-A. The trouble is, I don't know of any software that is capable of decoding them. Even WinDVD refuses to open such files. And btw, WaveLab doesn't support that codec either, so even though you pass the unencrypted DVD-A to it, it will fail saying that the audio is in an unknown format.

I will post a sample of the ripped audio shortly for anyone to review. I'm very curious to see if it is indeed the original 24bit/92kHz audio, or a 24bit/92kHz upsample of a 16bit/48kHz downsample of the original 24bit/96kHz audio (!), since apparently WinDVD refuses to output the full resolution to anything else than the sanctionned Creative Labs Audigy soundcard (see the thread [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=31406]Digital copy of DVD-A Tracks[/url] about the issue). I'm hoping that the tools bypass that restriction somehow.

The software is still very alpha-quality, but at least it seems to work, and that's a first. Thank you very much rjamorim for providing us those tools, and a big thank you to the author.

Edit: I actually use the word "actually" way too often...
  • Last Edit: 05 July, 2005, 09:43:39 AM by skamp

  • Cyaneyes
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #45
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You then have to burn them to a DVD-R, thus producing an unencrypted copy of the DVD-Audio.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311128"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It should be possible to mount it as a virtual drive with daemon tools or something similar, right?

I'd like to add my thanks also.  I think I'm going to buy my first DVD-Audio disc today, solely due to the fact that I can now rip them.  I'm curious to see whether it's true that the mastering on certain DVD-A titles is better than their CD counterpart (loudness race).

See, music industry?  If you had treated the consumer with respect from the beginning and not used copy protection, I'd probably own a dozen or so DVD-A's by now.

  • rjamorim
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #46
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In the end, the whole process is quite inconvenient (rip, burn, record), but at least we can finally rip our DVD-A's.

DVDAExplorer_a7.exe can extract the original .mlp files out of the unencrypted copy of the DVD-A.


I suspect you can mount the audio_ts in Daemon Tools and the like. Maybe that'll fool WinDVD?

Quote
The trouble is, I don't know of any software that is capable of decoding them. Even WinDVD refuses to open such files. And btw, WaveLab doesn't support that codec either, so even though you pass the unencrypted DVD-A to it, it will fail saying that the audio is in an unknown format.


Yes, unfortunately, MLP is a completely closed and proprietary format.

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I will post a sample of the ripped audio shortly for anyone to review.


Excellent, thanks

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I'm hoping that the tools bypass that restriction somehow.


I suspect it does, but testing it would be indeed the best way to know for sure.

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Thank you very much rjamorim for providing us those tools, and a big thank you to the author.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311128"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Glad you found this useful

Now let's start the countdown until a RIAA registered letter arrives at my mailbox...


OBS: There's a caveat, according to the guy that suggested these tools for me. WinDVD won't play unencrypted and watermarked DVD-As. The logic is this:

you can play encrypted with watermarking (original)
you can play encrypted without watermarking (original)
you can play unencrypted without watermarking (home)
you can't play unencrypted with watermarking (pirate)

Strangely enough, PowerDVD will play unencrypted + watermarked streams fine.
Get up-to-date binaries of Lame, AAC, Vorbis and much more at RareWares:
http://www.rarewares.org

  • guruboolez
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #47
Wow! It's a bad new for the DVD forum (but a good one for companies behind SACD).
I've three DVD-A (including 2 classical one) and I'm very interested to check them through an audio editor. Thanks for hosting the applications, Roberto.

  • kl33per
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #48
Well I'll be buying a DVD-Audio disc tomorrow.
www.sessions.com.au - Sessions Entertainment

  • rjamorim
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How to grab DVD-Audio?
Reply #49


It would be awesome if the format actually became more popular after this new "feature" got enabled.

That would probably send a hint or two to the recording studios.
Get up-to-date binaries of Lame, AAC, Vorbis and much more at RareWares:
http://www.rarewares.org