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  • Ivan Dimkovic
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
I've just read interesting AES article (#5256) regarding FhG's "Inverse Decoder" tool..

It seems that this tool is able to:

- Analyse the encoding window size (1152 / 1024 / ... samples)
- Analyse the short block usage
- Analyse the bit reservoir usage
- Analyse the M/S and I/S usage
- Analyse the quantization step size
- Analyse the TNS usage

With this information, they could detected what algorithm was used, and with database of known properties - what encoder and version, as well as encoding settings were used  only by analysing of decoded PCM file!!

This is very interesting and straightforward algorithm for transcoding without losses,  and they claim that they can even reconstruct MP3/AAC bitstream out of decoded WAV without degradation of sound quality!

But, there are some other usages, like this:

Quote
The increasing popularity of low bitrate audio coding schemes comes along with a significant number of undesirable activities, such as the illegal distribution of copyrighted audio over the Internet and the availability of encoders illicitly using patented algorithms. In this context, the inverse decoder can be an interesting tool both for forensic purposes as well as for investigations about violations of IPRs.



So, the tool could be used for detecting unlicensed MP3 and AAC encoders,  or illegally obtained MP3 encoders

  • AgentMil
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #1
Ivan, this is very very interesting! So smart these people are! 

Laters
AgentMil
-=MusePack... Living Audio Compression=-

Honda - The Power of Dreams

  • JohnV
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #2
I'm wondering if somebody could implement a transcoder detector, which would detect from AAC,Vorbis or MPC -file if the source was something like MP3 or WMA..
Juha Laaksonheimo

  • Ivan Dimkovic
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #3
I was really impressed by reading the article (by Jürgen Herre - one of co-developers of MP3 and AAC standards)  - it is really very interesting and straightforward.

Too bad it could be used for "corporate business" (filing lawsuits all around)

  • Frank Klemm
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #4
Quote
I was really impressed by reading the article (by Jürgen Herre - one of co-developers of MP3 and AAC standards)  - it is really very interesting and straightforward.

Too bad it could be used for "corporate business" (filing lawsuits all around)

Take a microphone and convert the article into an Ogg Vorbis file ;-)
--  Frank Klemm

  • wkw
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #5
This inverse decoder isn't hard to implement.. In fact in the development of my encoder, I generated a lot of debuging data... For every 1 MB of pcm audio compressed.. the encoder generates 30 - 40 MB of debugging data.. All that is needed is to move these codes into the decoder... and hey.. you have an inverse decoder.. In fact.. using the Cool Edit tools, you find out when exactly at what audio samples did the encoder switch to start / short / stop block! You even know exactly when and where TNS is enabled and best of all, you can zoom in zoom out using the Cool Edit graphical zoom capabilities..

However, I doubted much can be done about the psychoacoustic model settings.. There is no way to extract psychoacoustic model settings from the decoder...

wkw

  • Frank Klemm
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #6
Quote
I've just read interesting AES article (#5256) regarding FhG's "Inverse Decoder" tool..

It seems that this tool is able to:

- Analyse the encoding window size (1152 / 1024 / ... samples)
- Analyse the short block usage
- Analyse the bit reservoir usage
- Analyse the M/S and I/S usage
- Analyse the quantization step size
- Analyse the TNS usage

With this information, they could detected what algorithm was used, and with database of known properties - what encoder and version, as well as encoding settings were used  only by analysing of decoded PCM file!!

This is very interesting and straightforward algorithm for transcoding without losses,  and they claim that they can even reconstruct MP3/AAC bitstream out of decoded WAV without degradation of sound quality!

But, there are some other usages, like this:

Quote

The increasing popularity of low bitrate audio coding schemes comes along with a significant number of undesirable activities, such as the illegal distribution of copyrighted audio over the Internet and the availability of encoders illicitly using patented algorithms. In this context, the inverse decoder can be an interesting tool both for forensic purposes as well as for investigations about violations of IPRs.



So, the tool could be used for detecting unlicensed MP3 and AAC encoders,  or illegally obtained MP3 encoders

IMHO a tool is possible which determines the used encoder from the decoded PCM data
(which is much more difficukt than determine this from the data stream).

But to determine the used encoder is much much much more simple than a inverse decoder.
To my mind an inverse decoder is not possible for current computers, and actually not necessary.
If you need an inverse decoder you have actually a coordination problem which can also
be solved by solving this corrdination problem.

BTW there are also aproaches for inverse decoders using watermarking in the decoder.
Especially with current pop music this works fine, because you don't need to 1...2 LSBs of the
decoded PCM signal.
--  Frank Klemm

  • layer3maniac
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #7
To HECK with the OTHER uses. THIS is what caught MY eye!

Quote
This is very interesting and straightforward algorithm for transcoding without losses,  and they claim that they can even reconstruct MP3/AAC bitstream out of decoded WAV without degradation of sound quality!

  • wkw
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #8
I don't how such a tool can "remodelled" the psychoacoustic masking threshold?
You can only extract the G_Gain & scalefactors... But to reconstruct the psychoacoustic model settings from these informations is near impossible. 
Further more, these algorithm may not even be using the standard psychoacoutic model II ??? It may be some proprietary psychoacoustic model..

wkw

  • DSPguru
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #9
Quote
Especially with current pop music this works fine, because you don't need to 1...2 LSBs of the decoded PCM signal.

hihi 
DSPguru's Webpage - home of BeSweet & The OggMachine.
BeSplit - 7kb of A loseless AC3/AAC/MP3/MP2/WAV Cutter :)

  • Ivan Dimkovic
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #10
No, of course it is not possible to guess psych. model settings,

but with all settings tool could guess, FhG could easily build database of all evailable encoders and their settings for each bit rate - and this way they could detect what encoder was used and with what default settings.

  • Frank Klemm
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #11
Quote
No, of course it is not possible to guess psych. model settings,

but with all settings tool could guess, FhG could easily build database of all evailable encoders and their settings for each bit rate - and this way they could detect what encoder was used and with what default settings.

Now I know why lame has soooo much options.
--  Frank Klemm

  • Ivan Dimkovic
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #12
Hehe, right :-)

And, as far as I understand - some companies are distributing LAME legally (by paying $15k/yr)  and therefore FhG could never tell was the distributed LAME encoding "legal" or not

  • rjamorim
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #13
Quote
some companies are distributing LAME legally (by paying $15k/yr)

MusicEx/JRiver is distributing LAME legally with MediaJukebox.
Get up-to-date binaries of Lame, AAC, Vorbis and much more at RareWares:
http://www.rarewares.org

  • Frank Klemm
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #14
Quote
Hehe, right :-)

And, as far as I understand - some companies are distributing LAME legally (by paying $15k/yr)   and therefore FhG could never tell was the distributed LAME encoding "legal" or not

And what about Xing encoded files re-encoded with FhG?

(I currently sorting nearly 20 CD-Rs with good music, but 60% is encoded
with Xing, Simple Stereo, 128 kbps, 25% with ISO-Encoder (wrong CRCs!),
Simple Stereo, 128 kbps, the rest with FhG or >=160 kbps).

I would say the main problem with MP3 is that most of the files are encoded with crappy
encoders.
--  Frank Klemm

  • Gabriel
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Fhg's "inverse Decoder" - Or Encoder Detector
Reply #15