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Index > 01 in CUE sheet

This is a part of a cue sheet generated bay EAC (gap appended to previous track)
Quote
FILE "Genesis - Archive 1967-75 (Disc 3) - 03 - More Fool Me.flac" WAVE
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "Supper's Ready"
    PERFORMER "Genesis"
    INDEX 00 04:01:32
FILE "Genesis - Archive 1967-75 (Disc 3) - 04 - Supper's Ready.flac" WAVE
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
    INDEX 02 05:08:67
    INDEX 03 08:56:30
    INDEX 04 12:41:72
    INDEX 05 14:16:62
    INDEX 06 17:20:30
    INDEX 07 24:16:46

  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    TITLE "I Know What I Like"
    PERFORMER "Genesis"
    INDEX 00 26:30:50


What are these index > 1?? Can I use these values somehow?  I mean, a normal cd-player only recognize 'tracks' not indexes. 

be020261

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #1
Nah i can remember in the olden days when CD players had seperate buttons for skipping indexes as well as tracks. Think of them as subtracks

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #2
Quote
This is a part of a cue sheet generated bay EAC (gap appended to previous track)
Quote
FILE "Genesis - Archive 1967-75 (Disc 3) - 03 - More Fool Me.flac" WAVE
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    TITLE "Supper's Ready"
    PERFORMER "Genesis"
    INDEX 00 04:01:32
FILE "Genesis - Archive 1967-75 (Disc 3) - 04 - Supper's Ready.flac" WAVE
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
    INDEX 02 05:08:67
    INDEX 03 08:56:30
    INDEX 04 12:41:72
    INDEX 05 14:16:62
    INDEX 06 17:20:30
    INDEX 07 24:16:46

  TRACK 05 AUDIO
    TITLE "I Know What I Like"
    PERFORMER "Genesis"
    INDEX 00 26:30:50


What are these index > 1?? Can I use these values somehow?  I mean, a normal cd-player only recognize 'tracks' not indexes. 

be020261

These are used within my Enigma - MCMXC a.D. album as well. It's used in tracks 02 and 07, which have more than one song played within each. Tracks are tracks; songs are songs. Songs don't always correspong with tracks. Your example is a good one (and I like Genesis (I only got a chance to hear their later Pop/Rock stuff, though) too, ;-)), as it shows this as proof that tracks can and sometimes do contain more than one song or piece of audio. I'm glad that genesis decided to put indices in that track to mark off where the songs begin within the track. Hope this was helpful to you. You can use those values wherever they're accepted. Hopefully, they'll be a Winamp/XMMS Cuesheet plug-in one day that will support jumping to the index marks in addition to track marks. I would love it for flexability's sake for sure! You can burn the index marks to CDs only on a CD burner (mostly all modern burners can) that supports DAO/96 (subcode) burning, as index marks are stored within the subcode (same as CD-TEXT, ISRC, and UPC, if available) data portion of the CD.

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #3
Quote
Nah i can remember in the olden days when CD players had seperate buttons for skipping indexes as well as tracks. Think of them as subtracks

I used to have one of them from November, 1991: SONY D-303 portable player. I believe it allowed skipping to index marks via the program function. What did the buttons look like that would do the skipping with most players? Would they be seperate from the track skip buttons? BTW, is the anyway I can find a photo and feature archive of all of the Sony CD players from yesteryear (I'm mainly looking for the beginning to about 1994)? Thanks...

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #4
I assume the use of subindex is more common on audio CDs with classical music.
I don't have many CDs with classical music but on most of them are subindex within the tracks.

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #5
Is there a way foobar can handle these sub-indexes? (either using that cue sheet or directly within the .flac file) ??

Another question would be: why press CDs with sub-indexes when >90% cd-player does not support index skip (ie: only track skip) (I might be wrong on the '>90%'  )


I too remember the old cd-player my grand-parents (!) use to have... they got it in the late '80s, I remember seing a 'index skip' on the front panel somewhere...

adam917
Quote
I'm glad that genesis decided to put indices in that track to mark off where the songs begin within the track. Hope this was helpful to you.


I wish... how?!

be020261

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #6
I have actually got the Foxtrot album by Genesis, and it's the same thing, 'Suppers Ready' has several indexes.
I wish that foobar2000 would act lika a CD player when reading Cue sheets and show negative values etc.

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #7
Quote
Is there a way foobar can handle these sub-indexes? (either using that cue sheet or directly within the .flac file) ??

Another question would be: why press CDs with sub-indexes when >90% cd-player does not support index skip (ie: only track skip) (I might be wrong on the '>90%'   )


I too remember the old cd-player my grand-parents (!) use to have... they got it in the late '80s, I remember seing a 'index skip' on the front panel somewhere...

adam917
Quote
I'm glad that genesis decided to put indices in that track to mark off where the songs begin within the track. Hope this was helpful to you.


I wish... how?!

be020261

They're there for accuracy. I'll use classical music as you brought that up and I can relate to it:

Say if you have three symphonies on a CD. These should be three tracks, as a symphony should never stop. If a particular symphony has different movements or segments that stand out from each other, it would be nice to have (sub-)marks in these places too. Look at a following thing I made up out of my head:

Adam - Symphonies 1 & 2
T01. Symphony 1
T01-I01. Movement 1
T01-I02. Movement 2
T02. Symphony 2
T02-I01. Movement 1
T02-I02. Movement 2
Why have these movements as separate tracks if they are just parts of a whole musical composition? Wouldn't it make more sense to jump to each composition and not just pieces of each? It's like making a new track mark every time a song changes verses -- it makes little sense. Tracks are usually whole compositions; not parts of one.

PS: I want my Winamp MP3CUE to skip to indices too!

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #8
You can also think of it as "Bookmarks within a track".
Selecting an index did work differently from selecting a track (on my vintage  Sony CD-player). Tracks would be randomly accessed within 2 sec or so. Indices up (or down) would seek through the current track to see if there was an next higher (lower) index (and if there wasn't it would just go to the beginning of the track again).

Another reason not many albums have indices is that certain record companies (I'm at least sure of the then Philips owned Polygram) did not support them because it was not in the original (Red Book) specs and there have been a few (early) players that were confused when indices were used.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #9
Interesting, I remember these things... Specifically, on a Jean Michel Jarre album - Revolutions     
Does any burning software support index's?

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #10
At least Nero supports indexes.
Sometimes I do live recordings, and use indexes on tracks with several parts.
Works fine with Nero!

btw I don't believe that 90% of all CD players do not support them

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #11
@ Lev:

They are also on the CDs Oxygene & Oxygene 7-13 from Jean-Michel Jarre 

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #12
Quote
Does any burning software support index's?

most burning programs support them...

Feurio is the best to work with them.
It can rip them even when compiling unlike Nero (doesn't know anything about indexes 0 or more unless you make a CD-Copy or you manually insert them).
Feurio integrates player also shows them while playing.

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #13
be020261,
My cdplayer supports indexes; not that I use them that often.
I can even mark an index in a track as a starting point in a playlist.

You already show it yourself: track 04 is about 25 minutes and therefor it's nice that you could jump to another indexpoint in the track.

And indexes/indices are great when you want to play one mp3 which contains several tracks. Live or streaming recording for instance.

Hope it helps.
______________
[collector]

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #14
Quote
And indexes/indices are great when you want to play one mp3 which contains several tracks. Live or streaming recording for instance.


Live CDs (like live shows, most dance/techno compilation/mix) doesn't consist of only 1 track with many indexes. *AND* they are still gapless... No need to have indexes to playback gapless tracks (ie, using foobar or using special input/output DLLs in Winamp)

Each Track have at least 1 index (index 01, if no gap between tracks, index 00 IS the gap...)  If there is index > 01 in the track, it means the track is separeted in many sub-section that represents particular... err.. mood/movement/etc...

So, I understand all this stuff and why it is there...
what I dont know, is HOW to use these markers (aka. indexes) in my mp3/flac/<insert codec name here>. 

PS. My recent DVD player (A cheap one) doesn't support indexes.  I can only skip from track to track.

What pieces of software are u using to support indexes?! (using foobar, winamp or other...)

Thanks

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #15
EAC supports a lot of subindex stuff. Using "extract selected tracks index based" they can be ripped as individual tracks. They also can be recreated in or directly taken to its burning feature.
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #16
Quote
EAC supports a lot of subindex stuff. Using "extract selected tracks index based" they can be ripped as individual tracks. They also can be recreated in or directly taken to its burning feature.

Hello

Your proposed solution has the slight disadvantage that you can not create a accurate 1:1 copy of a disk AFAIK

If you already got ripped CDs to image + cue sheet, reripping is needed because there is no easy way at the moment to split indivdual parts of image index based.
The only way is editing the cue sheet manually and convert index marks to track marks but I think this isn't a proper solution.

I hope to see index support in fb2k in one of the upcoming versions.

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #17
Quote
@ Lev:

They are also on the CDs Oxygene & Oxygene 7-13 from Jean-Michel Jarre 

I have that Oxygene 7 - 13 as well and when I extract to single file/Cuesheet, two tracks have three indices. I can tell where each one begins becasue the track changes style at these points. I guess an appropriate title for these would be like this?:

T01. Oxygene 7
T01-I01. Oxygene 7-1
T01-I02. Oxygene 7-2
T01-I03. Oxygene 7-3
[...]

The indices aren't named in this album, unlike Genesis and Enigma, who named theirs. Enigma did a different style of this in their CD case:

[...]
Code: [Select]
II. The Principles of Lust
   A. Sadeness
   B. Find Love
   C. Sadeness (Reprise)

[...]

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #18
Quote
If youn already got ripped CDs to image + cue sheet, reripping is needed because there is no easy way at the moment to split indivdual parts of image index based.

Wrong. Use EAC's "split wav by cue sheet/individual indices" for that. Every track index and every subindex becomes a single wav file.
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #19
Quote
Quote
If youn already got ripped CDs to image + cue sheet, reripping is needed because there is no easy way at the moment to split indivdual parts of image index based.

Wrong. Use EAC's "split wav by cue sheet/individual indices" for that. Every track index and every subindex becomes a single wav file.

Ok, you are right. I never used EAC for anything else then simple ripping.

I have converted all my CD ripps to FLAC, so EAC isn't able to split them, so I have to convert them in wave again, split them to seperate tracks und convert back  to FLAC again.

I was thinking about easier handling.

There is also the disadvantage that you got seperate tracks for a musik piece that originally was one whole track.

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #20
Quote
Your proposed solution has the slight disadvantage that you can not create a accurate 1:1 copy of a disk AFAIK


Using EAC's "copy image and create cue sheet" and then writing the new audio CD by loading the cue sheet into EAC's writing window is the most accurate way on earth for creating a copy of an audio CD. While EAC creates the image, it of course can use secure mode. The wav image contains all of the audio data and the cue sheet all TOC data, even the UPC and ISRCs, all gaps and track indices and subindices.
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #21
I have actually got the Foxtrot album by Genesis, and it's the same thing, 'Suppers Ready' has several indexes.
I wish that foobar2000 would act lika a CD player when reading Cue sheets and show negative values etc.



I'm working on a music player for Linux that will support use of subindices. I've decided that I want it to emulate a CD player that supports subindices and it will have the option to skip between them. It will also allow always playing the pregap and the pregap will always appear as a negative number. I've come up with a way to do all of this with GStreamer and TagLib, then gtkmm for the GUI. You'll see me post about it in the future on here, but it will be a while. It's a long-term project as portfolio material because I'm a CS major.

I'd appreciate any other specific releases that have subindices. Genesis and King Crimson's Lizard are the only releases I have found so far for testing purposes.


EDIT: Wow, I just noticed how old this is. Whoops.

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #22
Bravo!

EDIT: Wow, I just noticed how old this is. Whoops.

People are more than welcome to resurrect old discussions with posts of this nature.

Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #23


Tip for Windows users:
Code: [Select]
findstr /s /C:"INDEX 02" *.cue

Index > 01 in CUE sheet

Reply #24
Just to name a few examples of what I've seen personally:
  • Original Rush releases with tracks that have multiple parts (2112, Caress of Steel)
  • Any number of live albums where the intro for the next track is indexed at the end of the current track
  • Some older releases where additional digital silence is indexed
  • Any of the Protest the Hero releases have intros for the next track indexed at the end of the current track
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

 
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