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Topic: preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0 (Read 5296 times) previous topic - next topic
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preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

I've tried searching the forums, but I still have some questions.
I', using Lame 3.96.

Studying the information on the screen (using --verbose), when encoding a mp3, I came to the folowing theory:

--preset extreme  is the same as  --vbr-old -V 0 -q 3
and
--preset insane  is the same as  --cbr -b 320 -q 3

(It pussles me a little, why is the q = 3 for presets extreme and insane? When I want to use extreme or insane, I don't want fourth best i want second best or the best.)

except in a post from JohnV, I found this:
--alt-preset insane : It uses code level tweaks, so you can't find switches which would be identical to it.

And somewhere I read that presets should be better than other switches, because of tweaks. What kind of tweaks is it ? what do they do, besides running faster ?

Can I ad: -q 0 when i use --preset insane ?  (--preset insane -q 0)
Or will that mess up the tweaks ?

Is --vbr-new -V 0 -q 0  better than  --preset extreme ?
Its clearly much faster.
But if it isn't better is i because of the --vbr-new or because of the tweaks in the presets ?

/Flux_Capacitor

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #1 –
AFAIK, -V 0 is the same as --preset extreme in Lame 3.96
The addition of --vbr-new makes it the same as --preset fast extreme. The speed increase comes from the --vbr-new switch, not the tweaks, which are obviously the same. The quality may be theoretically a little less, but not by much, possibly even imperceptible.

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #2 –
Quote
I've tried searching the forums, but I still have some questions.

It's understandable that you have questions however, the LAME Recommended Settings is there for a reason. Read them, and Copy and Paste, them into a text document, or print them so you will have a locally available copy.

Many people have thought that adding additional lines to the already proven presets will make them better without:
A: Properly testing what the consequences are.
B. Offering any proof what is being attempted is "better."

Tacking on your own additional commands won't make your mp3's better, it will make them worse.

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #3 –
As of LAME 3.95 the -V, -b and --abr switches are mapped to the according presets for the sake of better transparency for the end-user.
Read the "simplyfying LAME switches" thread for more information.
"To understand me, you'll have to swallow a world." Or maybe your words.

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #4 –
Thanks for your input, and your patience with me asking the (almost) same question as so many before me. 

(I should have posted this in 'Audio Compression - MP3 - General', but I was busy formulating and spelling my question, so I didn't post it where I intended  )

The first place I tried to get an underestanding of things, was in the html-files that come with lame.
The thing that confused me was what I read in the explanation of the switches (html) that -q 0 would give the best quallity.
But I could see from the output "qval=3" in --preset extreme, it would correspond to -q 3 in a command line!

I now understand it like this -V 0 is the exact same as --preset extreme.
(And the same as --vbr-old -V 0.)
And if I want it to be fast I can use: --preset fast extreme  or  --vbr-new -V 0
But I should not apply -q 0, because it would not improve the quallity of the resulting mp3.
(I hope I got it right, now.)

/Flux_Capacitor

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #5 –
What I do now is completely ignore the help documentation that ships with LAME because in general it causes nothing but confusion when someone finds out about --alt-preset (--preset) switches and then that someone thinks that tacking on something extra will help.

At http://www.rarewares.org/ you can download a compile(s) of LAME that only encodes with --alt-preset standard, or --alt-preset extreme, that way there is no chance of adding extra switches that won't produce the best quality mp3's.

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #6 –
Quote
Tacking on your own additional commands won't make your mp3's better, it will make them worse.

Please don't generalize. Maybe the presets are tuned very well, but it's nothing absolute, they could be changed anytime.
If you had added "normally" or"as a rule of thumb", I wouldn't have written this.

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #7 –
Quote
What I do now is completely ignore the help documentation that ships with LAME because in general it causes nothing but confusion when someone finds out about --alt-preset (--preset) switches and then that someone thinks that tacking on something extra will help.

I would be pleased to receive suggestion regarding how to improve the provided documentation.

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #8 –
Quote
Quote
Tacking on your own additional commands won't make your mp3's better, it will make them worse.

Please don't generalize. Maybe the presets are tuned very well, but it's nothing absolute, they could be changed anytime.
If you had added "normally" or"as a rule of thumb", I wouldn't have written this.

I hadn't noticed it until you mentioned it, I stand corrected.
You're right I did generalize. Again you're right they aren't absolute as I remember the -Z option coming into usage for ASP and APE.

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #9 –
Quote
Quote
What I do now is completely ignore the help documentation that ships with LAME because in general it causes nothing but confusion when someone finds out about --alt-preset (--preset) switches and then that someone thinks that tacking on something extra will help.

I would be pleased to receive suggestion regarding how to improve the provided documentation.

You may or may not agree with me. I would start the documentation off with recommended VBR presets, and try to explain why they are recommended and what their advantages, such as:
Code: [Select]
Recommended VBR Presets:  Quality Value:  Type:  Average kbit/s:
--alt-preset standard     High            VBR    180-220
--preset standard         High            VBR    180-220

--alt-preset extreme      Very High       VBR    220-270
--preset extreme          Very High       VBR    220-270

The recommended preset to start with is "--alt-preset standard"
known as --preset standard in newer LAME compiles gives high
quality at reasonable file sizes. It is typically transparent
meaning the mp3's are typcially indistinguishable from the
original audio CD, therefore making it suitable for archival
purposes.

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #10 –
Quote
You may or may not agree with me. I would start the documentation off with recommended VBR presets, and try to explain why they are recommended and what their advantages, such as:

Isn't it the case in the html doc?

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #11 –
What I would have liked was a better explanation of which switches the presets correspond to and why the presets give better encoding than a self-composed commandline (for encoding into the same "type" of mp3's).

Explain why --preset extreme  gives better results than for instance: -V 0 -q 0  and that you should not give additional switches, like I did: --preset extreme -q 1.  (No one has done this yet, but I've accepted it. (Excepting that its been said that the presets uses code-tweaks.) It probably would be very difficult to hear the difference, anyway.)
 

preset extreme vs. vbr-new -V 0

Reply #12 –
Quote
Quote
You may or may not agree with me. I would start the documentation off with recommended VBR presets, and try to explain why they are recommended and what their advantages, such as:

Isn't it the case in the html doc?

Yes it's in the html docs, however when printing the built in "lame --help", and "lame --longhelp" the recommendation shows:
Quote
RECOMMENDED:
lame -h input.wav output.mp3

There is no mentioning of the quality being for instance being archival, transparent, etc., when using --alt-preset standard, extreme, or insane from the same help files. I am only talking about when using "lame --help" and "lame --longhelp". Of course people could use "lame --preset help" and "lame --alt-preset help".