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Topic: Digital Amplifiers? (Read 5545 times) previous topic - next topic
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Digital Amplifiers?

I just learned about a (semi) new digital amplification technology.  The way I understand it is that it resamples the signal to 1 bit at 2.8Mhz, amplifies it, then actually drives the speaker with this signal.  Some systems modify this a bit with a ternary signal (positive, 0, negative), but it is basically the same thing.

Has anyone listened to these or done ABX testing?  Maybe they could show detail that was hard for most people to get before.  It seems to me that SACD (recorded using DSD technology) + Digital amp would provide one of the best listening experiences ever.  Could this new amp technology make 16/44100 PCM ABXable from SACD or DVD-A?

Here are some links:
Sharp Digital Amplifier
Sharp SACD Player
puredigitalaudio.org
Apogee Technology
Spectron Amps

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #1
You should read this thread. ABXable depends on listener and listening equipment and many other variables. Someone could ABX the difference and someone else cant.

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #2
Is there any cheap digital amplifiers out yet? There is some years since I could by an TACT (instead of a car ;-)  I can't see no reason for an mass-produced digital amplifier to be more expensive than an ordinary amplifier.


Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #4
While they are getting a bit old, these results speak of the difficulties involved in ABX testing amplifiers:
http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_pwr.htm

These amplifiers seem like they could be fairly efficient and offer excellent distortion measurements. Having said that amplifier measurements don't seem to effect sound. Many people like tube amplifiers which feature very high THD (compared to clean Solid State designs) but still sound "good" (not transparent, but good).

Considering that modern solid state amplifiers are probably the least distortion introducing and most linear stage in any hifi (unless clipping or broken) I really don't see the next revolution in musical transparency coming from developments in any amplification technology.

Quote
I can't see no reason for an mass-produced digital amplifier to be more expensive than an ordinary amplifier.

They are fairly similar technology to switch mode power supplies, just controlled by their input voltage, which means that they should be able to be produced super cheap.

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #5
Quote
Many people like tube amplifiers which feature very high THD (compared to clean Solid State designs) but still sound "good" (not transparent, but good).

Considering that modern solid state amplifiers are probably the least distortion introducing and most linear stage in any hifi (unless clipping or broken) I really don't see the next revolution in musical transparency coming from developments in any amplification technology.

The type of distortion also effects the perception of sound quality.  Tube amplifiers produce an even-order THD type of distortion (multiples of an even number) which is much more listenable than odd-order THD type distortion.  Odd-order THD is prevalent with today's solid-state amplifiers and sounds much worse (dissonant) than even-order distortion.  This is mainly why we see such low levels of THD distortion among today's modern solid-state amplifiers.  It's much more important to have the lowest possible THD distortion amongst solid-state amplifiers than tube amps based upon the type of THD distortion produced.

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #6
Quote
These amplifiers seem like they could be fairly efficient and offer excellent distortion measurements. Having said that amplifier measurements don't seem to effect sound. Many people like tube amplifiers which feature very high THD (compared to clean Solid State designs) but still sound "good" (not transparent, but good).

This is a matter of opinion, of course.  I tend to dislike the "tube sound" -- it sounds falsely "warm" and "oily" to my ears (pardon the stupid description, but can't think of another).  I guess some people find added colorations to be pleasant, but I don't even like it with my turntable (and work to get rid of as much as possible in the latter case).

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #7
Quote
Quote
I can't see no reason for an mass-produced digital amplifier to be more expensive than an ordinary amplifier.

They are fairly similar technology to switch mode power supplies, just controlled by their input voltage, which means that they should be able to be produced super cheap.

Well, I remember one class where some of my classmates chose this as their project. They only had to build a very small one, but still they had some trouble finding components. The critical part was apparantly a diod which had to be fast enough. Anyone else around who knows more about what that would be? I can't say i understood their design... but it sounded descent.

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #8
Here are some more or less relevant threads regarding amplifier sound/harmonics/tubes/coloration/'blind testing'    and so on at http://www.diyaudio.com/ :

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread....&threadid=22618

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread....&threadid=12752

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread....&threadid=28944

Happy reading

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #9
re: EricS

Yes, that's what I also have read, several components have to be really fast. That may be the reason we are still waiting? When was the first digital amplifier released? It must be around ten years since now?

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #10
The March 2003 issue of IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers) Spectrum covered digital amplifiers in some detail.

  Here's a bit that I've transcribed for you lovely people:
Quote
Class D designs are prone to distortion, chiefly from imperfect power supply regulation and timing error. Since the output voltage of a Class D amplifier is directly proportional to the power supply voltage, any error in that voltage modulates the output voltage. Power supply variations in the amount of current drawn by the amplifier show up in the output as distortion. Instabilities in the supply itself, such as power line ripple, show up at the output as noise or hum. Building a power supply so that voltages remain rock steady in spite of fluctuations in output current is not a trivial task.   


  There was a short listening test (ABX? No!) included in the article, comparing >$3000 solid state, tube and digital amplifiers. The verdict for the author was that the 50W per channel $4500 Sharp SM-SX1 digital amp sounded absolutely excellent, though there was nearly 2 percent noise measured at 20KHz (much less at lower frequencies).`

edited closequote and Sharp model name

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #11
i think fast diodes are only really needed in more efficient designs (class AB for instance) where the "speed" of these components related to crossover distortion.

i'd imagine a class-A amp working quite well (these are 20% efficient at best, assuming perfect components, and are usually used by audiophiles who have no regard for power bills)

although i may have misunderstood this digital amplification technique.

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #12
Quote
although i may have misunderstood this digital amplification technique.

Possible... If I understood correctly, digital amplifiers are nothing else than DACs with VERY powerful outputs (you plug the speakers into the line out).
But maybe I'm mistaken myself, and they also use some kind of output similar to class A or B.

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #13
Do you remember the pc-speaker driver for Windows 3.1? It was terrible, but it was sound, and a soundcard was expensive. A digital amplifier works similarly, doesn't it?

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #14
Quote
Class D amplifiers also use two transistors, but instead of amplifying analog signals, which can assume any value, they switch between just two voltage values (in our example) +40 and -40V. One transistor can connect the output to the +40V rail, the other to the -40V.
  Theoretically, neither transistor wastes any power. When one is fully on, all of the power supply voltage is dropped across the speakers and none travels across the transistor. When it's fully off, all of the supply voltage drops across the transistor, but no current flows through it. In both cases, the product of the voltage across the transistor and the current through it is zero.
  Of course, this Class D amplifier can reproduce only binary (two valued) waves. So to use it to amplify analog music signals, those signals have to be converted into a suitable on-off waveform. One way to do this is with pulse-width modulation (PWM). In PWM, the amplitude of an analog input signal serves to control the average percentage of time the transistor spends turned fully on, known as duty-cycle.
    The PWM signal is generated by comparing the analog input signal with a triangle waveform - one that continuously sweeps linearly from a low to a high value and back again. To do that, both signals are fed into an analog comparator whose output is high whenever the analog signal has the higher instantaneous value, and low when the opposite is true.
     The output of this comparator, then, is a waveform that has the information of the original analog signal and yet switched between just two values....In a Class D amplifier this PWM waveform acts as a binary control signal that switches the transistors on and off depending on the amplitude of the analog input. Changing the power supply voltage changes the amount of amplification.
      Of course, what the transistors produce is a higher-power version of this same, switching waveform, which would overheat the speakers dreadfully if allowed to reach them, containing as it does amplified versions of both the original audio input signal and inaudible higher-frequency components arising from the PWM process. So after amplification, that PWM wave has to be passes through a filter that lets lower-frequency signals through while weakening the higher-frequency ones. This the low-pass filter does by smoothing the switching waveform, in effect supressing the rapid changes in the output waveform and leaving only it's average value. At the same time, happily enough, it filters out noises caused by the switching process itself.


IEEE.

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #15
Thank you for the quote.
It reminds me of descriptions of DSD, and as always there is somthing unclear for me.

If the original signal is created comparing the analog source to a triangular shaped signal, isn't it working like the usual description of SACD ? 1 means go up, and 0 means go down ?

If so, why taking the average of the digital waveform, while it is the "primitive" function of it (taking -1 and +1 instead of 0 and +1) that represents the original waveform, and not the average ?

Since this document matches exactly all explanations that I've read so far, I assume that the mistake is on my side...

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #16
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i think fast diodes are only really needed in more efficient designs (class AB for instance) where the "speed" of these components related to crossover distortion.

I don't think the speed of diodes can have any effect on crossover distortion. I have only seen diodes in two places in popular Class AB amps:
1) In the power supply. Considering these are outside a couple of big caps, they have no effect on the sound from the amplifier (unless the capacitors are too small and the amp is being pushed very hard).
2) Used to bias the output devices. Diodes here are being used for their static voltage drop. They are always forward biased, so speed is irrelevent.

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #17
Does anyone have some info on what the different classes (A,B,C,D) means for amplifiers?

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #18
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Does anyone have some info on what the different classes (A,B,C,D) means for amplifiers?

You can find a good intro to the topic on Wikipedia:
Electronic Amplifier

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #19
thanks cabbagerat...

i'd checked some schematics online, but i tend to tune out when some lazy bugger doesn't put symbols for the components, but rather squares with letters in them and a legend.  very easy to get confused.

this sounds interesting.  i'm all for an efficient amp so long as there's no audible side-effects (like the aforementioned crossover distortion).

i'll have to demo one of these babies at a hi-fi shop (whilst ignoring the salesman).  hi-fi shops hate me - i always take my CDs, etc in and play with their gear without asking...

 

Digital Amplifiers?

Reply #20
Quote
It reminds me of descriptions of DSD, and as always there is somthing unclear for me.

If so, why taking the average of the digital waveform, while it is the "primitive" function of it (taking -1 and +1 instead of 0 and +1) that represents the original waveform, and not the average ?

Its not that PWM or DSD says "go up 1 step", it says "go right to the upper clipping peak" or "right down to nada" when in DAC. To get small steps inbetween, you need to switch to opposite direction in right moments, or you get the "overshoot". PWM decides that moment in reference to triangular wave (thats what it is for). And to make sure output signal doesn't go peak to peak too fast, low-pass filtering is used - slows it down. Thats averaging.

You can't do -1 and +1 in analog form easily, thats what DACs are for. But in digital domain, what you thought is exactly what is done to convert from DSD to PCM. Initial counter at zero tracks DSD with its -1 or +1 and every 64 steps it has PCM sample at 44.1KHz. Note, it takes 8M DSD samples to get from 0 to half range of 24-bit PCM, or about 3 seconds. How they even think it competes with 24-bit PCM is beyond me.
It really really did sound different. Not in a placebo way.