The Future of Foobar

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The Future of Foobar

2004-03-22 00:00:55

I did a little search and look at the web page but couldn't find it listed anywhere.

Would Foobar continue to aim at Enthursiat Community or would it aim at wider range of Audience?

Obviously No Body would deline that Foobar has the best feature and quality on Windows Platform. But there are still a lot of user sticking to Winamp. And there is quite a few reason for that.

1. Option Screen will need a huge rework. Like many first time user would gather that setting foobar wasn't the simplest job in the world.

2. Interface - Before this goes into flame, let me just say i think "most" would agree Foobar doesn't have the prettiest interface. The work by Danz does help. But it is still only a interface on top of a interface. Although today Foobar's interface is adequate for simple uses. I do believe that there is Win-Win formula for it.

Please discuss if this is the right time to think about this and expand on ideas above.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #1 – 2004-03-22 00:20:10

1. not a huge rework, just some finetuning imo. A consistent aligment of all the stuff would improve the overview a lot. Also maybe moving around some settings and an simple and advanced mode would be handy but that's it.

2. I have to disagree on this one. The interface is a big part of the power of foobar, no fuss, plain and simple. The way an audio player should be. It's an audio player so what's the point in looking at it all the time? Maybe the default playlist layout should be changed a bit but that's just personal preferences. For those people who love to stare at an audio player while it's player just music they can download a plugin and make their player all nice and shiny.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #2 – 2004-03-22 08:03:11

I won't comment on the settings thing, but yeah, i'm agreeing with Prodoc on the interface part. One of the biggest reasons people like foobar is its interface. If you make it just another skinnable player like Winamp or WMP, there really isn't any reason to continue using it, is there? Maybe the quality or customisability of the plug-ins, but even then, foobar's plug-in authors could just as easily write them for Winamp. What'd be the point?

Besides, you can make foobar look plenty good without skins.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #3 – 2004-03-22 09:13:40

i too wont comment on the configuration-thing, because it wouldn't be such a difficult task to make it more organized.

Something which imho is much more needed than a fancy looking UI, is -simplifying- unnecessary complicated stuff. One of the biggest advantages of foobar is customizability and its open and plugin-friendly architecture. However, this has lead to lots of dupe and similiar functions. I think the current most severe problem is feature-creep. Well, some may now say "if you dont want the functions, then dont install that plugin" - but the thing is that to do various stuff, you do have to install quite some of them - and then the components-mania may seem like a maze for a beginner.

What i'm trying to say is NOT to remove features - but instead combine some similiar stuff - one example:

currently, there are many different search-plugins available which use the database to do search-queries. These components could be merged into a single plugin, and then distributed by default in the foobar-installer(there already is such a plugin in the works, called playlistgen, which makes searching really easy).

Another example would be taking fileinfobox special, masstagger and -renamer, and merging them into a single component: One window, but maybe with three tabs "Tags", "Masstagger" and "Rename Files".

Merging similiar plugins will make new users not that much overwhelmed when using the installer, tidy up the preferences page alot, will make it easier to find(or decide on) the plugin you want to use in daily use(the less plugins, the less ones to choose from) and it would maybe even allow for some additional interoperatibility between features in such a merged plugin.

Again, i'm not proposing a one-big-mess-allinone-plugin - at the same time, i think the current linux-like approach "one plugin for each tiny feature" leads to a mess too. So what i think would be optimal is a middle way - merging similiar stuff, yet still keeping really different functions seperated.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #4 – 2004-03-22 10:01:27

For the options bit. I think The first thing on it should be General Perfences. Like how the player react, What file type it open... etc.

And may be reorganizing some options as tab at the top. So the left hand side bar doesn't look so cluster. Example would be if those 3 options listing under core could be listed on Top of the right hand side config screen ( so you would only see them when you press Core )

ABout the interface.I thought , yes it looks plan and simple, but i could not customize it as Myie................................................ OH YEAH!!!!. would it be posible to have things like button drag and drop and moving things around?
That would be great wouldn't it?

Edit: Is Foorbar = Foobar or is it Foobar 2k? or Foobar2k4 ??

The Future of Foobar

Reply #5 – 2004-03-22 10:25:28

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Another example would be taking fileinfobox special, masstagger and -renamer, and merging them into a single component: One window, but maybe with three tabs "Tags", "Masstagger" and "Rename Files".

Yeah, that is kind of confusing, and i was thinking about that earlier. It kind of doesn't make sense that the 'properties' thing can be used to mass-tag files, but is separate from the 'masstagger' thing. I mean, it makes sense if you're using it, but in a way it's kind of illogical from an interface perspective. The biggest hurdle there is when you're editing just one file, i guess. So... more than just reorganising the tag/rename/mass-tag components, i think a small redesign would be more logical. I'm not in a position to make detailed suggestions at the moment, though, heh.

As far as merging plug-ins goes, i think that's kind of easy to say, but a lot more difficult to actually do. It's difficult to draw the line.

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OH YEAH!!!!. would it be posible to have things like button drag and drop and moving things around?

Hm, what do you mean? You can already move certain interface elements around if you want. (For example, you can move the order drop-down and the position slider.) :/

Quote

Edit: Is Foorbar = Foobar or is it Foobar 2k? or Foobar2k4 ??

Um. ... What. Heh.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #6 – 2004-03-22 11:29:06

i'd like to have a dockable console, that can attach itself to the bottom of the UI

i think the console is a great feature, and it's a pain to have it as a seperate window

[span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']edit: sorry - this is more of a feature request than a valid contribution to the discussion of the future.[/span]

The Future of Foobar

Reply #7 – 2004-03-22 14:04:52

What might make the settings a bit more easier as well would be to create a seperate section for the tag info gathering in the title formatting section.

e.g. now you have to use a lot of the same code on the different tabs to detemine the info like artist, album, etc. In this case I'm talking about the exceptions. If no artist info is included in the file itself, try getting it from the directory structure or display N/A.
If a seperate section is created for this, all other sections could inherit this information and if it's not set in the first section it could again try to get it from the file itself.
This can save a lot of coding.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #8 – 2004-03-22 15:31:57

i have been waiting for over one year for foobar to support playlist files that link to other playlist files, like winamp. until then, i wont uninstall winamp. all my > 1 cd albums has autogenerated playlists, one for each cd and one for all cds that point to the others.

/d

The Future of Foobar

Reply #9 – 2004-03-22 18:54:46

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i have been waiting for over one year for foobar to support playlist files that link to other playlist files, like winamp. until then, i wont uninstall winamp. all my > 1 cd albums has autogenerated playlists, one for each cd and one for all cds that point to the others.

..where's the need for this playlist mess? just use the album list..

The Future of Foobar

Reply #10 – 2004-03-22 21:08:58

not for me dude...

i use a third party program to handle my albums etc. developed by myself for over a year... will soon be released to the public

The Future of Foobar

Reply #11 – 2004-03-23 03:54:12

yes ... the set up was a little tough ... at first. once i got my feet wet, though. this is a side effect of foobar's sheer power. maybe a n00b mode would be nice or a place to download config files for the faint of heart.

i do think the interface needs some work, but, and i repeat "but!", foobar should never be a winamp clone. i think skinning foobar is pointless. my thoughts on this:

1) i'd like to see foobar adopt a new interface format ... in fact break the interface into four distinct parts: a header, a sidebar, a playlist, and a footer. each part would be able to be turned on/off. the component folder (in install path) would have a folder for each of these parts, each folder would have another folder for items available to this part (eg. "component/header/seekbar/" would contain available seekbars or "component/header/visualization/" would house all visualizations). if you want to put your "viz" on the footer instead of the header just move the "visualization" folder to "component/footer/visualization/" ... a right-click on any of the four particular regions brings up a list of the "folders" (kinda like the header currently, a right click brings up a list for turning on/off seekbar, viz, order list, controls, etc.) with a sublist of "folder" contents or components. don't like the default seekbar, download a new one or make your own; just put it in the appropriate folder. want a new playlist control (such as foo_columns_ui), same deal; just put in the "components/playlist" folder.

2) i'd like to see some new controls like for putting a throbber or a background watermark image on one of these areas, so you can customize the look even more with like the logo of your company or something.

comments/questions are welcome ...

The Future of Foobar

Reply #12 – 2004-03-23 22:10:33

My wishlist for the interface :

1/ Integrate Foo_UI_columns in the standard interface (apart from the columns, it has the playlist ordering by drag&drop + the single click playlist switcher + some nice additional options like colors in the default vizualization <-- stereo vis. would be nice as well)

2/ Integrate album list to it (single click refresh of the content for instance in the default playlist from the Nth -1 level of the hierarchy) + not making it a separate window

3/ Integrate the extended search in this interface

4/ Integrate a display of any image file found in the current playing directory

That would give a nearly perfect main window made of 4/5 panes that could be rearanged based on various schemes. I have adressed this idea to the foo_ui_columns developper (maybe for Version 1.0)

Most of all ... keep it simple to cope with the original philosophy. I love the puritan style of it ...

The Future of Foobar

Reply #13 – 2004-03-23 22:45:18

I agree with NEMO on every point made. The obstacle to more widespread adoption is not so much a lack of functionality, but rather, the unintuitive interface and setup of the program.

It's really all about the interface here. Yes, the current interface is simple, streamlined and uncluttered. But the fact is, some of Foobar's excellent functionality is not exposed in a ready-to-use, up-front, and above all, OBVIOUS manner.

I'm sure nobody here will disagree with the assertion that Foobar has unsurpassed functionality and -- once you understand it -- usability of that functionality.

I also think most will agree that the simple (non-skinned, non-animated, "plain") FB interface is a plus, NOT a negative, despite the direction other MP3 players are going lately. But this doesn't translate into an interface that is intuitive to use. Simplicity and intuitiveness are not one and the same.

* The lack of a visible, mixer-based volume control is a big obstacle to more widespread adoption. Foobar is probably the only mp3 player in existence lacking this functionality. I know many of you find this trivial or insist that mixer-volume belongs elsewhere, but the simple fact remains -- the lack of this seemingly fundamental player functionality is perhaps the biggest obstacle to more widespread use. "Hmm this is an interesting mp3 player ... let's start playing ... where's the volume slider? (...) *loads winamp*"

* Column-based playlist sorting would be a great help.

* The database functionality should be enabled by default on installation, and (as NEMO suggested) having a search box visible on the default interface would help greatly.

* A tree-style sidebar which organizes one's music by album, artist, year, genre, or (fill in the blank) would make the interface instantly more accessible.

* The preferences dialog can be a bit daunting even to experienced geeks, and while Foobar's design philosophy may be simple, this dialog is certainly not. I'd suggest revamping prefs to mirror what has been done in Mozilla Thunderbird/Firebox's preferences (5 or 6 categories of prefs represented by icons in a sidebar). A "Show advanced preferences" checkbox could revert the prefs to the current "laundry list" approach. Hitting Ctrl-P and getting a non-interactive list of loaded component libraries is not intuitive!

Honestly I don't think a skinnable interface is going to do much to increase Foobar's userbase. For every person who prefers skins, there are probably two who either prefer the basic/OS-themed look, or simply don't care.

In short, I think the task now is not to improve on Foobar's functionality, but simply to make that underlying functionality more accessible to Joe User, right out of the box. Users should be able to learn and grow into the deeper functionality of the player, rather than having to learn numerous non-obvious/archaic ways of working before they can even begin.

Joel

The Future of Foobar

Reply #14 – 2004-03-23 22:49:07

I just want a powerfull Media Library.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #15 – 2004-03-23 23:40:36

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It's really all about the interface here. Yes, the current interface is simple, streamlined and uncluttered. But the fact is, some of Foobar's excellent functionality is not exposed in a ready-to-use, up-front, and above all, OBVIOUS manner.

I'm sure nobody here will disagree with the assertion that Foobar has unsurpassed functionality and -- once you understand it -- usability of that functionality.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #16 – 2004-03-23 23:56:24

Quote

It's really all about the interface here. Yes, the current interface is simple, streamlined and uncluttered. But the fact is, some of Foobar's excellent functionality is not exposed in a ready-to-use, up-front, and above all, OBVIOUS manner.

I'm sure nobody here will disagree with the assertion that Foobar has unsurpassed functionality and -- once you understand it -- usability of that functionality.

Yes you are absolutely right here.

But in my personal opinion this is exactly what sets Foobar2000 apart from the general masses of other players out there. It's approach is simply more individual then others and therefore I have learned to love it.

If advanced functionality is what the user wants he will have to have at least a bit of patience to aquaint himself with the software he uses.

Also I sincerely dought that moving all these advanced functions into the foreground would make anything better. If anything it would make things more complicated, since new users might be overwelmed with the feature richness. After all many people already complain about the prefs dialog beeing to complicated.

I see many people posting that they want to use certain advanced features that no other player will offer, but apperantly are not willing to put in the time or effort to aquaint themselves with those. Not realizing that if things where kept simpler these features simply would not be there in the first place.

That is exactly where FB2Ks strong point comes in. It is exactly as simple or complicated as you want it to be. Heck, even my girlfriend (not meaning to put her down in any way) uses FB2K to listen to music on her laptop. I have never heard her complain that it is any more complex then any other players. If anything I think that a lot off people simply are having a hard time to let go of old habbits and show some adaptability.

If a person that never used either Winamp nor FB2K I am sure they will find FB2K at least as easy to use. Simply already because of it's standard Windows interface.

Now in no way I mean to criticize anyone that wants to use another player then FB2K for whatever reasons. I believe there should be individual players for individual tastes. And this again is where FB2K comes in to perfectly fit in for me as beeing different from many other players out there. And personally I would love to see it evilve eaxactly like that: different

LOL, Omg I sound like an FB2K salesman here

The Future of Foobar

Reply #17 – 2004-03-24 19:05:44

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I just want a powerfull Media Library.

You mean something similar to a Winamp Library?

Actually i would like something of that, and may be a filtering system. Where i choose what i want to filter and gradually find things. But i don't think it is important.

About the interface. I don't nesscerly means foo look alike. Just may be the plug in interface allow more interface option to the 3rd party developer.

And today i just try foo tunes. It look very good apart from icons could be better. But it is the right step in right direction.

So may be options is needed to work on....... may be a Advance and a Basic version. I think currently the options is what need to work on. I haven't got a exact idea yet since the amount of option in foobar is so many!.

This nectrualy makes me think of Zoomplayer in early days. Where there are simply too many options and noob don't know what to do.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #18 – 2004-03-24 19:22:21

What I think might be a huge step forward for bringing foobar2k to the mainstream is to have a plug-in to allow people to use winamp skins on top of foobar. I would never use them, but it would make a whole bunch of people more comfortable.

Advanced/Basic options would also be a very good idea for making people more comfortable.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #19 – 2004-03-24 22:19:05

Quote

Quote
I just want a powerfull Media Library.

You mean something similar to a Winamp Library?
[...]

Yes, I meant that.
It has been discussed a couple of times already, and it's my #1 wish.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #20 – 2004-03-25 07:27:12

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What I think might be a huge step forward for bringing foobar2k to the mainstream is to have a plug-in to allow people to use winamp skins on top of foobar. I would never use them, but it would make a whole bunch of people more comfortable.

There is a look for foo_looks which will let you use winamp 1.x/2.x skins, the ones with just a bmp file and no scripts or anything. Don't know if thats what you wanted, but it gets you many winamp skins.

The Future of Foobar

Reply #21 – 2004-03-31 16:28:42

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I just want a powerfull Media Library.

Yes I agree, that's my top foobar wish as well, and so here ia another vote .

BTW the dedicated topic just came back from deep in the forum.

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