The short sample in question is from "V-Tracks - Subway 26".

SK1 (a former member) and I detected a sample from a trance track that has
some pre-echo problems with LAME 3.90.3, even at higher settings like
--alt-preset insane.

I sat down and tested the sample, and indeed, 9/9, alhough I needed more than
an hour to finish this test. We decided to see if it's a codec-related problem
and prepared samples with MPC --insane, Vorbis GT3b2 -q 8, Nero AAC 6.3.0.3
at the VBR settings of Extreme and Audiophile, and finally, OptimFROG DualStream.

I concentrated on position 00:00.4 - 00:00.8. Throughout the sample, there are
repeating hi-hats on the left channel. They are smeared by the pre-echo effect.

In order to rule out any possible distortion/aliasing problems because of the
sound cards resampling from 44.1 KHz to 48 KHz, we used Naoki Shibata's SSRC
1.29 with these settings:

SSRC.exe --twopass --dither 0 --rate 48000 V-Tracks.wav V-Tracks-48.wav

OK, here we go:

I had mixed luck with Nero Extreme. I could not concentrate enough to get 5 in
a row, but I managed 4/4 about 5 times during 5 minutes. Unfortunately
WinABX froze, and this log can only shows my miserable attempts to
succeed again after running it for the second time. It's 4 AM and I will
probably quit now:

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 00:51:41

A file: E:\V-Tracks-48.wav
B file: D:\V-Tracks-48-nero_extreme.wav

00:59:25 1/1 p=50.0%
00:59:45 2/2 p=25.0%
01:00:31 2/3 p=50.0%
01:00:50 2/4 p=68.8%
01:00:52 reset

01:01:10 1/1 p=50.0%
01:01:51 2/2 p=25.0%
01:05:28 2/3 p=50.0%
01:05:30 reset

01:05:39 1/1 p=50.0%
01:06:35 1/2 p=75.0%
01:06:37 reset

01:06:45 1/1 p=50.0%
01:06:53 2/2 p=25.0%
01:07:02 3/3 p=12.5%
01:07:47 3/4 p=31.2%
01:09:23 4/5 p=18.8%
01:10:31 4/6 p=34.4%
01:10:34 reset

01:10:54 1/1 p=50.0%
01:11:03 2/2 p=25.0%
01:11:12 2/3 p=50.0%
01:11:15 reset

01:11:24 1/1 p=50.0%
01:11:37 1/2 p=75.0%
01:11:38 reset

01:11:55 1/1 p=50.0%
01:13:18 1/2 p=75.0%
01:13:20 reset

01:13:30 1/1 p=50.0%
01:14:09 1/2 p=75.0%
01:14:13 reset

01:17:41 1/1 p=50.0%
01:20:06 1/2 p=75.0%
----------------------------------------

I can always detect the "swoosh" sound on my first ABX attempt, but I get tired after.

SK1 had much more luck. He uses a better sound card, an Audigy, as opposed to my SB128
with its weak volume. His headphones are more suited for such a test (Sennheiser HD580,
while I still have the open HD495S). Lucky him.

Here are the logs from his various attempts:

LAME 3.90.3 --alt-preset insane (easy):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/05/2004 21:25:17

A file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48.wav
B file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48-lame_api.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:08.2
21:25:39 1/1 p=50.0%
21:25:57 2/2 p=25.0%
21:26:20 3/3 p=12.5%
21:26:40 4/4 p=6.2%
21:27:21 5/5 p=3.1%
21:27:29 6/6 p=1.6%
21:27:51 7/7 p=0.8%
21:28:09 8/8 p=0.4%
21:28:45 9/9 p=0.2%
21:28:54 10/10 p< 0.1%
21:29:07 11/11 p< 0.1%
21:29:22 12/12 p< 0.1%
21:29:24 test finished
------------------------

Nero 6.3.0.3, Extreme, VBR. Both Nero samples were kindly prepared for us by menno. (very easy):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 00:51:07

A file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48.wav
B file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48-nero_extreme.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:08.2
00:52:04 1/1 p=50.0%
00:52:12 2/2 p=25.0%
00:52:24 3/3 p=12.5%
00:52:37 4/4 p=6.2%
00:52:46 5/5 p=3.1%
00:52:55 6/6 p=1.6%
00:53:11 7/7 p=0.8%
00:53:24 8/8 p=0.4%
00:53:32 9/9 p=0.2%
00:53:39 10/10 p< 0.1%
00:53:44 11/11 p< 0.1%
00:53:50 12/12 p< 0.1%
00:54:03 test finished
------------------------

Nero 6.3.0.3, Audiophile, VBR (very hard):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 01:26:45

A file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48.wav
B file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48-nero_audiophile.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:08.2
01:27:23 1/1 p=50.0%
01:27:30 2/2 p=25.0%
01:27:59 3/3 p=12.5%
01:28:09 4/4 p=6.2%
01:28:20 5/5 p=3.1%
01:29:49 6/6 p=1.6%
01:31:55 7/7 p=0.8%
01:32:08 test finished
-----------------------

Oggenc GT3b2, Xiph.Org/Sjeng.Org libVorbis I 20030909 (GTune 3, beta 2), -q 8 (hard):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 01:45:08

A file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48.wav
B file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48-vorbis_q8.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:08.2
01:45:30 1/1 p=50.0%
01:45:44 2/2 p=25.0%
01:46:25 3/3 p=12.5%
01:46:36 4/4 p=6.2%
01:47:04 5/5 p=3.1%
01:47:55 6/6 p=1.6%
01:48:29 7/7 p=0.8%
01:48:36 test finished
-----------------------

DualStream --mode extra --quality 0, file bitrate = 276.8 kbps (failure to ABX):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 02:18:39

A file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48.wav
B file: E:\test\v-tracks-48-ofs_extra_quality0.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:08.2
02:18:57 1/1 p=50.0%
02:19:20 2/2 p=25.0%
02:19:39 2/3 p=50.0%
02:19:48 2/4 p=68.8%
02:20:21 3/5 p=50.0%
02:20:34 4/6 p=34.4%
02:20:42 4/7 p=50.0%
02:20:47 test finished
-----------------------

MPC - mppenc 1.15r --quality 7 (failure to ABX):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 02:23:34

A file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48.wav
B file: E:\test\V-Tracks-48-mpc_insane.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:08.2
02:24:18 0/1 p=100.0%
02:24:54 1/2 p=75.0%
02:25:20 2/3 p=50.0%
02:25:58 3/4 p=31.2%
02:26:21 3/5 p=50.0%
02:27:03 4/6 p=34.4%
02:27:24 4/7 p=50.0%
02:28:03 5/8 p=36.3%
02:28:22 6/9 p=25.4%
02:28:52 6/10 p=37.7%
02:29:36 6/11 p=50.0%
02:29:45 test finished
------------------------

We would like to hear about your experiences too. With AAC, mostly, since it's
relevant to this forum. I am adding a link to the original sample, APE, 48 KHz
(no need to SSRC) through a .torrent file.

===========================================

V-Tracks - Subway 26 - Monkey's Audio, extra high, 48 KHz

I can ABX mpc standard and xtreme on this relatively easy (on both 44.1 and 48 versions). No luck with insane. Maybe I will try that another time.

Here's yet another short sample and more results:

The sample is taken from:
DJ Jan - X-Santo (Angel mix) - VA album Party Time 4 - 1997
The problem: pre-echo that is even more pronounced and easier to hear,
since the drums are now isolated

LAME 3.90.3 --alt-preset insane (easy):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 18:45:36

A file: E:\test2\x-santo-48.wav
B file: E:\test2\x-santo-48-lame_api.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:03.7
18:46:16    1/1  p=50.0%
18:46:25    2/2  p=25.0%
18:46:33    3/3  p=12.5%
18:46:43    4/4  p=6.2%
18:46:54    5/5  p=3.1%
18:47:02    6/6  p=1.6%
18:47:24    7/7  p=0.8%
18:47:30    8/8  p=0.4%
18:47:39    9/9  p=0.2%
18:48:08  10/10  p< 0.1%
18:48:21  11/11  p< 0.1%
18:48:46  12/12  p< 0.1%
18:48:49  test finished
-----------------------

Oggenc GT3b2, Xiph.Org/Sjeng.Org libVorbis I 20030909 (GTune 3, beta 2), -q 8 (hard):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 18:51:11

A file: E:\test2\x-santo-48.wav
B file: E:\test2\x-santo-48-vorbis_gt3b2_q8.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:03.7
18:51:44    1/1  p=50.0%
18:52:16    2/2  p=25.0%
18:52:36    3/3  p=12.5%
18:53:01    4/4  p=6.2%
18:53:28    5/5  p=3.1%
18:54:24    6/6  p=1.6%
18:54:36    7/7  p=0.8%
18:55:59    8/8  p=0.4%
18:57:10    9/9  p=0.2%
18:59:43  10/10  p< 0.1%
18:59:47  test finished
-----------------------

Nero 6.3.0.3's AAC encoder, Extreme, VBR. Both Nero samples were kindly
prepared by Case. (very easy):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 20:01:38

A file: E:\test2\x-santo-48.wav
B file: E:\test2\x-santo-48-nero_extreme.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:03.7
20:02:44    1/1  p=50.0%
20:02:51    2/2  p=25.0%
20:02:58    3/3  p=12.5%
20:03:04    4/4  p=6.2%
20:03:11    5/5  p=3.1%
20:03:24    6/6  p=1.6%
20:03:37    7/7  p=0.8%
20:03:53    8/8  p=0.4%
20:04:00    9/9  p=0.2%
20:04:07  10/10  p< 0.1%
20:04:30  11/11  p< 0.1%
20:04:41  12/12  p< 0.1%
20:04:42  test finished
-----------------------

Nero 6.3.0.3's AAC encoder, Audiophile, VBR (201 kbps) (medium):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 20:09:05

A file: E:\test2\x-santo-48.wav
B file: E:\test2\x-santo-48-nero_audiophile.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:03.7
20:09:20    1/1  p=50.0%
20:09:29    2/2  p=25.0%
20:09:42    3/3  p=12.5%
20:09:55    4/4  p=6.2%
20:10:22    5/5  p=3.1%
20:10:43    6/6  p=1.6%
20:10:54    7/7  p=0.8%
20:11:19    8/8  p=0.4%
20:11:30    9/9  p=0.2%
20:12:02  10/10  p< 0.1%
20:12:23  11/11  p< 0.1%
20:12:49  12/12  p< 0.1%
20:12:51  test finished
-----------------------

MPC - mppenc 1.15r --quality 7 (185 kbps) (very hard):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 20:14:22

A file: E:\test2\x-santo-48.wav
B file: E:\test2\x-santo-48-mpc_insane.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:03.7
20:14:56    0/1  p=100.0%
20:15:24    1/2  p=75.0%
20:15:58    2/3  p=50.0%
20:16:27    2/4  p=68.8%
20:16:55    2/5  p=81.2%
20:17:18    3/6  p=65.6%
20:18:00    3/7  p=77.3%
20:18:26    4/8  p=63.7%
20:18:43    5/9  p=50.0%
20:19:05  6/10  p=37.7%
20:19:39  7/11  p=27.4%
20:20:02  8/12  p=19.4%
20:20:26  8/13  p=29.1%
20:20:41  9/14  p=21.2%
20:21:11  10/15  p=15.1%
20:21:34  10/16  p=22.7%
20:21:58  11/17  p=16.6%
20:22:19  12/18  p=11.9%
20:22:39  12/19  p=18.0%
20:22:52  13/20  p=13.2%
20:23:27  14/21  p=9.5%
20:23:39  15/22  p=6.7%
20:23:53  16/23  p=4.7%
20:24:04  17/24  p=3.2%
20:24:37  18/25  p=2.2%
20:24:53  19/26  p=1.4%
20:25:51  20/27  p=1.0%
20:26:57  21/28  p=0.6%
20:28:28  22/29  p=0.4%
20:31:15  22/30  p=0.8%
20:31:50  23/31  p=0.5%
20:32:29  23/32  p=1.0%
20:32:53  23/33  p=1.8%
20:33:13  test finished
-----------------------

DualStream --mode extra --quality 0, file bitrate = 182.6 kbps (very easy):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/06/2004 20:46:47

A file: E:\test2\x-santo-48.wav
B file: E:\test2\x-santo-48-ofs_extra_quality0.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:03.7
20:47:21    1/1  p=50.0%
20:47:32    2/2  p=25.0%
20:47:46    3/3  p=12.5%
20:48:24    4/4  p=6.2%
20:48:36    5/5  p=3.1%
20:48:50    6/6  p=1.6%
20:49:07    7/7  p=0.8%
20:49:41    8/8  p=0.4%
20:50:14    9/9  p=0.2%
20:50:22  10/10  p< 0.1%
20:50:31  11/11  p< 0.1%
20:50:38  12/12  p< 0.1%
20:50:39  test finished
-----------------------

The APE file can be found
here

I have yet another sample of the same music style:
The track is "Sync In (original A.F.U. 016 mix)" by Silent Breed. There is smearing/pre-echo again, like in the above 2 samples.

Here are the WinABX logs:


Nero 6.3.0.3's AAC encoder, Extreme, VBR (253 kbps). Both Nero samples were kindly prepared by Case. (easy):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/07/2004 22:57:09

A file: E:\test3\sync-48.wav
B file: E:\test3\sync-48-nero_extreme.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:13.6
22:57:43    1/1  p=50.0%
22:57:58    2/2  p=25.0%
22:58:10    3/3  p=12.5%
22:58:20    4/4  p=6.2%
22:58:34    5/5  p=3.1%
22:58:51    6/6  p=1.6%
22:59:20    7/7  p=0.8%
22:59:36    8/8  p=0.4%
22:59:53    9/9  p=0.2%
23:00:08  10/10  p< 0.1%
23:00:22  11/11  p< 0.1%
23:00:34  12/12  p< 0.1%
23:00:38  test finished
--------------------------------

Nero 6.3.0.3's AAC encoder, Audiophile, VBR (301 kbps) (medium):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/07/2004 23:04:34

A file: E:\test3\sync-48.wav
B file: E:\test3\sync-48-nero_audiophile.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:13.6
23:05:09    1/1  p=50.0%
23:05:41    2/2  p=25.0%
23:05:48    3/3  p=12.5%
23:06:02    4/4  p=6.2%
23:07:03    5/5  p=3.1%
23:07:13    6/6  p=1.6%
23:07:36    7/7  p=0.8%
23:08:24    8/8  p=0.4%
23:09:05    9/9  p=0.2%
23:09:27  10/10  p< 0.1%
23:10:02  11/11  p< 0.1%
23:12:01  12/12  p< 0.1%
23:12:03  test finished
------------------------------------

LAME 3.90.3 --alt-preset insane (very easy):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/07/2004 23:12:44

A file: E:\test3\sync-48.wav
B file: E:\test3\sync-48-lame_api.wav

23:13:05    1/1  p=50.0%
23:13:09    2/2  p=25.0%
23:13:17    3/3  p=12.5%
23:13:24    4/4  p=6.2%
23:13:29    5/5  p=3.1%
23:13:36    6/6  p=1.6%
23:13:40    7/7  p=0.8%
23:13:43    8/8  p=0.4%
23:13:46    9/9  p=0.2%
23:13:52  10/10  p< 0.1%
23:13:56  11/11  p< 0.1%
23:14:00  12/12  p< 0.1%
23:14:03  test finished
---------------------------------------

Oggenc GT3b2, Xiph.Org/Sjeng.Org libVorbis I 20030909 (GTune 3, beta 2), -q 8 (277 kbps) (hard):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/07/2004 23:22:33

A file: E:\test3\sync-48.wav
B file: E:\test3\sync-48-vorbis_gt3b2_q8.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:13.6
23:22:46    1/1  p=50.0%
23:23:08    2/2  p=25.0%
23:23:47    3/3  p=12.5%
23:24:31    4/4  p=6.2%
23:24:56    5/5  p=3.1%
23:25:54    6/6  p=1.6%
23:27:11    7/7  p=0.8%
23:28:25    8/8  p=0.4%
23:31:02    9/9  p=0.2%
23:32:21  10/10  p< 0.1%
23:32:29  test finished
------------------------------------

MPC - mppenc 1.15r --quality 7 (281 kbps) (failure to ABX):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/07/2004 23:36:22

A file: E:\test3\sync-48.wav
B file: E:\test3\sync-48-mpc_insane.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:13.6
23:37:42    0/1  p=100.0%
23:38:00    0/2  p=100.0%
23:39:39    1/3  p=87.5%
23:39:54    1/4  p=93.8%
23:40:11    2/5  p=81.2%
23:40:21    2/6  p=89.1%
23:40:46    2/7  p=93.8%
23:41:28    3/8  p=85.5%
23:41:47    3/9  p=91.0%
23:42:10  4/10  p=82.8%
23:42:25  5/11  p=72.6%
23:42:43  6/12  p=61.3%
23:42:57  7/13  p=50.0%
23:43:13  8/14  p=39.5%
23:43:25  9/15  p=30.4%
23:43:49  10/16  p=22.7%
23:44:05  10/17  p=31.5%
23:44:33  10/18  p=40.7%
23:45:09  11/19  p=32.4%
23:45:30  12/20  p=25.2%
23:45:45  13/21  p=19.2%
23:45:57  13/22  p=26.2%
23:46:10  14/23  p=20.2%
23:46:20  15/24  p=15.4%
23:46:32  16/25  p=11.5%
23:46:40  16/26  p=16.3%
23:46:55  17/27  p=12.4%
23:47:08  17/28  p=17.2%
23:47:24  18/29  p=13.2%
23:47:42  19/30  p=10.0%
23:47:59  20/31  p=7.5%
23:48:13  21/32  p=5.5%
23:48:38  22/33  p=4.0%
23:49:06  22/34  p=6.1%
23:49:18  22/35  p=8.8%
23:49:34  23/36  p=6.6%
23:49:45  23/37  p=9.4%
23:49:55  24/38  p=7.2%
23:50:03  24/39  p=10.0%
23:50:19  25/40  p=7.7%
23:50:29  26/41  p=5.9%
23:50:36  26/42  p=8.2%
23:50:48  26/43  p=11.1%
23:51:02  26/44  p=14.6%
23:51:21  27/45  p=11.6%
23:51:30  27/46  p=15.1%
23:51:41  28/47  p=12.1%
23:51:50  29/48  p=9.7%
23:51:58  29/49  p=12.6%
23:52:11  29/50  p=16.1%
23:52:28  29/51  p=20.1%
23:52:56  30/52  p=16.6%
23:53:13  31/53  p=13.6%
23:53:22  32/54  p=11.0%
23:53:30  32/55  p=14.0%
23:53:39  33/56  p=11.4%
23:53:50  34/57  p=9.2%
23:53:57  34/58  p=11.9%
23:54:01  test finished
--------------------------------

DualStream --mode extra --quality 0, file bitrate = 277.3 kbps (easy):

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/08/2004 00:04:05

A file: E:\test3\sync-48.wav
B file: E:\test3\sync-48-ofs_extra_quality0.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:13.6
00:04:33    1/1  p=50.0%
00:04:40    2/2  p=25.0%
00:04:47    3/3  p=12.5%
00:05:07    4/4  p=6.2%
00:05:15    5/5  p=3.1%
00:05:29    6/6  p=1.6%
00:05:41    7/7  p=0.8%
00:05:58    8/8  p=0.4%
00:06:19    9/9  p=0.2%
00:06:56  10/10  p< 0.1%
00:07:14  11/11  p< 0.1%
00:07:50  12/12  p< 0.1%
00:07:58  test finished
------------------------------------------------

APE file as a .torrent (BitTorrent client required):
Sync In (original A.F.U. 016 mix)

Edit: All the 3 files I torrent are also available on Ganymed's host (higher speed). Please visit this page and contribute more samples.

WinABX v0.41 test report
02/08/2004 10:06:08

A file: E:\sync-48.wav
B file: E:\sync-48-nero_extreme.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:13.6
10:06:33    1/1  p=50.0%
10:06:42    1/2  p=75.0%
10:07:03    2/3  p=50.0%
10:07:13    3/4  p=31.2%
10:07:29    3/5  p=50.0%
10:07:46    4/6  p=34.4%
10:07:54    5/7  p=22.7%
10:08:09    6/8  p=14.5%
10:08:28    7/9  p=9.0%
10:08:43  8/10  p=5.5%

I had 2 bottles of wine just now, but I will give it a shot anyway:

-------------------------------------
WinABX v0.41 test report
02/08/2004 01:51:12

A file: D:\temp\sync-48.wav
B file: D:\temp\sync-48-nero_extreme.wav

Start position 00:00.0, end position 00:13.6
01:52:16    1/1  p=50.0%
01:52:54    2/2  p=25.0%
01:54:03    3/3  p=12.5%
01:54:48    4/4  p=6.2%
01:55:04    5/5  p=3.1%
01:55:49    6/6  p=1.6%
01:56:17    7/7  p=0.8%
01:57:51    8/8  p=0.4%
01:59:53    9/9  p=0.2%
02:02:34  9/10  p=1.1%
02:03:23  10/11  p=0.6%
02:03:37  11/12  p=0.3%
02:03:49  11/13  p=1.1%
02:04:00  11/14  p=2.9%
02:04:55  12/15  p=1.8%
02:05:26  13/16  p=1.1%
02:05:52  14/17  p=0.6%
02:06:35  15/18  p=0.4%
02:06:54  16/19  p=0.2%
02:07:34  17/20  p=0.1%
02:08:01  17/21  p=0.4%
02:08:26  18/22  p=0.2%
02:11:04  test finished