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Topic: Patent issues (Read 5797 times) previous topic - next topic
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Patent issues

I posted a thread on the winamp forums asking why they don't include mpc support as standard in the same way that they now do with vorbis. I got a reply saying that it was due to licensing issues and the fact that there were patents on mpc.

I'm confused: i'm using the winamp plugin to listen to mpc's at the moment. Is this plugin illegal? It's hosted on the official site i seem to remember.

Are winamp not allowed to include it as part of a package even if the package is free?

Patent issues

Reply #1 –
The plugin and the encoder are legal because the patents haven't been enforced by the holders - yet.

And yes, MPC uses patented algorithms, like MP2 algorithms and PNS.

The matter isn't that Winamp can't include it in the package - they can, because noone enforced the patents. But if they are ever enforced, Nullsoft will surely have problems. So, they prefer to be on the safe side.

Regards;

Roberto.

Patent issues

Reply #2 –
Quote
Originally posted by rjamorim
The plugin and the encoder are legal because the patents haven't been enforced by the holders - yet.

And yes, MPC uses patented algorithms, like MP2 algorithms and PNS.

The matter isn't that Winamp can't include it in the package - they can, because noone enforced the patents. But if they are ever enforced, Nullsoft will surely have problems. So, they prefer to be on the safe side.


MP3 plugin should also been removed. Uses much
more patents than MP2/Musepack. And last but
not least every program I know violates the
simpliest of the three MP2 patents - the patent
on blockwise processing. I know that this is
a stupid patent, but nevertheless this is
violated by every format, because it is so
basic.
--  Frank Klemm

Patent issues

Reply #3 –
The MP3 decoding patents have never been enforced, and Fraunhofer made clear they have no interest in enforcing them.

I don't know about Philips and MP2 patents, but PNS is a technology used in AAC. And the AAC patent holders are very anal.

In the end, it's all a matter of people enforcing (or probability of enforcing in the future) the patents, rather than being patent-free.

BTW: Winamp uses Fraunhofer's decoding engine. I would guess they payed a one-time fee for that, and that included licensing arrangements.

Regards;

Roberto.

Patent issues

Reply #4 –
we DID pay for FhG decoder. happy now, mr. Klemm ?
Microsoft Windows: We can't script here, this is bat country.

Patent issues

Reply #5 –
Quote
Originally posted by zZzZzZz
we DID pay for FhG decoder. happy now, mr. Klemm ?


I will check what is patented on PNS, and
if the patent conflict can't be avoided, there
will be a PNS free version with poor quality
for Thumb profile. Then a Thumb profile
file with PNS is detected, a message box is
raised.

Other patents are the same as MP2. Have you payed
for the MP3 patents or for the FhG implementation?
--  Frank Klemm

Patent issues

Reply #6 –
Why are some people getting hostile here?? I really don't get it!

Mr. Klemm and Mr. Bushman in my opinion have developed one of the best if not THE best lossy manner for encoding hifi material.

And as I've posted in another post here I really don't care if I would be the only one with mpc files on the planet, because as long if I can play them I've got my music don't I??

I think winamp is a GREAT player and has great support (supporting ogg now) for various formats and if you would like to add another you just add the plugin. Simple!

I personally hope MPC never gets into mainstream and remains for the quality-minded people because else who knows we could get guys that think that because MPC is better than MP3 they can encode at a lower bitrate while it still remains their infamous "cd-quality"  (awfull word).

Patent issues

Reply #7 –
Quote
Originally posted by -=Ducky=-
I personally hope MPC never gets into mainstream and remains for the quality-minded people because else who knows we could get guys that think that because MPC is better than MP3 they can encode at a lower bitrate while it still remains their infamous "cd-quality"  (awfull word).


So I might assume you don't want vorbis to become mainstream too?
Because newbies would encode it at low bitrates?

Well, that's OK, but keep in mind that if MPC ever becomes mainstream, you will get:
-Plugins bundled with players
-Hardware support
-Plugins for CD burners
-MPC streaming
-File sharing support (Yeah, yeah, I mean not just WinMX)
And so on.

You say that "As long as I can play it, it's OK". But I believe that's suboptimal, since you can't use the format anywhere else.

I will say that for the thousandth time: IMO, the format's quality counts a lot, but isn't everything. You are taking only quality in consideration when you say "MPC doesn't need to involve, playing only is OK". There are countless other features worth taking in consideration when choosing formats.

And I see most people in this board ignoring this fact. But people everywhere else want these features. At least the bundled plugin. They're not "1337" enough to go to Klemm's page, find the zip file there, download, unzip and copy the dll to Winamp /plugins folder. They want something easier.

Regards;

Roberto.

Patent issues

Reply #8 –
Klemm: sure, that's fine, i'd be happy to see MPC support included with Winamp, but it would take forever to convince AOL legal folks that it's absolutely safe (remember how long it took for them to verify Vorbis ?). also, you would have to convince Justin to include MPC (i'm not the one who takes decisions of this kind here).
Microsoft Windows: We can't script here, this is bat country.

Patent issues

Reply #9 –
@rjamorim :

Plugins bundled with players : I've got winamp plugin + xmms plugin so why would I need another??

Hardware support : I've build my own music standalone pc that has a high quality soundcard (terratec 24/96) and vid (radeon 8500) in it. I use to play music and watch movies. So I've build my own hardware support in a way.

Plugins for cdburners : I can decode everything to WAV and burn away.

MPC streaming : okay I can see that this is a prob. But I'm not in all the streaming thingies so it's not really of an interest to me.
btw we got vorbis for that don't we .

File sharing support : I think filesharing progs like kazaa and winmx are junk! FTP is all I need so I can share with my friends and people I know of that are also concerned with quality.
(for example when you would like to download an mp3 and you've got 2 choices a 192 kbps and a 320 kbps which would you go for?? of course the 320 kbps one, but then again keep in mind there are lots of morons that encode there downloaded stuff from 128 kbps to 320 kbps because they think it will sound better)
to put it simple filesharing progs are a big no for me because you don't what you get.

Owkay let's put it this way, when I think of vorbis, mp3, wma, ...
I think of perhaps good quality but then again perhaps not.

But when I think of mpc I immediately think of quality because I know that the people that have encoded into mpc must have done some research because they didn't take the mp3 way like many others do.
Okay there are exceptions .

I would like to say that I think every format has it's place and is great in it's role. And I think the role of mpc tends to be quality.

Patent issues

Reply #10 –
Quote
Originally posted by zZzZzZz
Klemm: sure, that's fine, i'd be happy to see MPC support included with Winamp, but it would take forever to convince AOL legal folks that it's absolutely safe (remember how long it took for them to verify Vorbis ?). also, you would have to convince Justin to include MPC (i'm not the one who takes decisions of this kind here).


Besides, there's the fact that the decoder is GPL'ed.

I doubt Mr. Frankel would be willing to include in_mpc sources in WinAmp distribution. And all the GPL zealots would complain even if he did so.

Patent issues

Reply #11 –
Ducky: That's OK if you are happy that way, with a poorly featured format. But keep in mind that other MPC users want to have the best functionality out of it. (I want the best functionality out of AAC myself).

It's kinda egoistical, in my point of view, to want to keep the format locked so that noone risks encoding in low quality. That reason seems even nonsensical to me. By avoiding full development of the format and it's features (I.E: avoiding it to become mainstream), you won't avoid people doing poop with it.

Regards;

Roberto.

Patent issues

Reply #12 –
@rjamorim :
It's just what I hope, but the developers do with the format what they want.  If they want to make it widespread so be it, but it'll make me stick to my private ftp's and friends even more.

I wouldn't really call mpc poorly featured btw, with ape1.0 and ape2.0 tagging it has one of the best tagging systems I've had the joy to work with. (great work they did there)

It's just that low quality is not of my interest but high quality is.

Also keep in mind this is just my personal point of view.

Patent issues

Reply #13 –
Quote
Originally posted by -=Ducky=-
I wouldn't really call mpc poorly featured btw, with ape1.0 and ape2.0 tagging it has one of the best tagging systems I've had the joy to work with. (great work they did there)


I agree. But, again, you are only looking to format-inherent features.

Other features would be the same list I posted before: streaming, widespread usage, support everywhere...

All these things are format features as well. There are developer-controled features (tags, speed, quality...), and in this aspect MPC is almost perfect.

But the market-controlled features are very important too, IMO. And MPC has a long way ahead to reach maturity in this aspect, if ever.

Regards;

Roberto.

Patent issues

Reply #14 –
I agree with the things you're saying.

But for me personally MPC has everything I want right now.  It's just perfect.
I  know that its not one of the most easy encoders to work with, but thanks to speeks frontend and after doing some testing and configging I've got everything right were I want it.

I can really understand that more userfriendlyness (??) will be build into MPC and that support will be taken care off after the SV8 release.

But I just hope that over time support, widespread usage, streaming, ... will not be put higher on the importance list than quality.
MPC has build the reputation to have one of the best quality and I just don't want to see this changed.

For example the people of xing have put quality some big steps lower than things like speed, ...

Maybe I sounded a bit harsh. Didn't mean to sound that way believe me.

Patent issues

Reply #15 –
Quote
Originally posted by -=Ducky=-
Maybe I sounded a bit harsh. Didn't mean to sound that way believe me.


That's OK.

Maybe I sounded a bit harsh too. I am too biased towards AAC, and sometimes I get ballistic discussing about other formats.

And I agree with your points too.

Regards;

Roberto.

Patent issues

Reply #16 –
THREE CHEERS FOR DUCKY
    I was going to add my two cents to this thread but ducky was taking the words right out of my mouth.  Poor quality Mp3 sharing is what started me researching other formats I settled on MPC for various reasons, most of all the quality and ease of operation.  Now if i could only find sites to share this quality.....I'd be in heaven.
What if the Hokey Pokey....is What it's all about?

Patent issues

Reply #17 –
Sorry guys, i had to delete those posts with the FTP/DC++ links. You were basically asking for it, heh...

@smg: You should browse this forum a bit.
 

Patent issues

Reply #18 –
No prob citay, I understand that this is not the place to discuss things like that.