Total Members Voted: 210
Originally posted by JohnV Paradox is the CEO of Xiph, Emmett Plant.
Originally posted by Dibrom some core people view this as an outside idea, not developled by them, that is somehow encroaching upon their territory and "tainting" the project. I certainly hope that's not the case, because of it is, that would be most unfortunate :/
Originally posted by rjamorim Hummm... like their unwillingness to accept John33's OggDec sources in Vorbis CVS?
<Vakor> Dibrom: To set facts straight: we didn't have oggdec offered to us for inclusion in vorbis-tools, and we didn't reject it. I haven't seen the code, but as a general statement, an oggdec tool would be welcome.
<Dibrom> I don't really know the situation, but I'd find it kind of hard to believe that john33 didn't contact you guys <Vakor> Feel free to post something quoting me - I don't have the time or patience to use web boards.<Vakor> Dibrom: well, he may have contacted someone else, but currently I seem to be the main vorbis-tools active maintainer, and I've not even heard it _mentioned_
<xiphmont> A completely new tool might not be the right way to do it though.... :-(<rjamorim> Humm...<xiphmont> maintianing two seperate trees with identical features sharing most code, just for two different OSes, is a headache.<xiphmont> Occasionally necessary, but eh.<rjamorim> Well, the code at my page only sports the changes John made.<rjamorim> I think the decoding engine is 100% standard ogg/vorbis libraries
Originally posted by Emmettfish Well, remember that I'm here in an effort to ascertain if there's something we can do about it. I'm really not interested in debating the reasons why the principles are necessary or not important, I'm interested in learning about alternative solutions. I'm interested in a way to make this work out for the best. Imagine if we just did exactly what people wanted, when they wanted it, every single time they wanted it, damn the consequences? Maybe we'd solve more problems, but we'd likely create a lot more than we started with.
I agree with you, but only when the demands of the well-meaning users are discussed and all the alternatives are on the table. Remember, I'm on your side. I like replaygain, and I think it's useful. If you're a big replaygain fan, don't you want to see it implemented in the best possible way? I do. That's why I'm taking the time to see what's possible.
No, it doesn't. A poll on Hydrogen Audio is not a representative sampling of everyone who uses Vorbis. Imagine if the poll weren't about embedding replaygain tags into Vorbis. If it were to ask if I should wear a suit made of bananas in an effort to make Vorbis more attractive, and everyone voted for the banana suit, would I then be forced to wear a banana suit by mob rule?
Just because a million people think it's a good idea, doesn't mean it couldn't do with more discussion and the presentation of alternatives. Contrary to popular opinion, mob rule does not make for good design.
Many moons ago, the idea of a patent and license-free alternative to mp3 was considered 'clearly unrealistic' and 'far too much of an idealist goal to be practical.' Please remember that at the player level, the current proposition remains the same; You still need to convince people that make players that they need to add this functionality. Nearly everything else pales in comparison to this fact.
I think that if there is any of that kind of thought process going on, it's likely because Monty doesn't take well to 'do this right now without thinking of the consequences' ultimata. Do you? See above for the dangers of implementing features without discussing them first. I can't say as I blame him. Monty is just as interested in the gain issue as I am, but he feels that the current proposition is not the best implementation.
So, all that being said, I'm still very much listening, and I'm here in good faith to support all the people that support us and want to see us succeed.
Let's put an end to the finger-pointing and name-calling, and work something out - And I mean that as much for my own people as everyone else.
Originally posted by Emmettfish Many moons ago, the idea of a patent and license-free alternative to mp3 was considered 'clearly unrealistic' and 'far too much of an idealist goal to be practical.' Please remember that at the player level, the current proposition remains the same; You still need to convince people that make players that they need to add this functionality. Nearly everything else pales in comparison to this fact.
Originally posted by Dibrom Actually, this metadata type stuff was discussed very briefly in the #vorbis channel. I believe it was Monty or someone else who said that this is where the replaygain data could go (note they didn't say that's where it would go though). Of course, the problem is that this new system won't be ready until "sometime in the future". Who knows what that could mean.....So, right now, it isn't really a solution it seems. :/
Originally posted by Emmettfish On the other hand, Vorbis is strictly against using playback data in tags. After all, tags are for identification of a particular track, not a true metadata format in which to relay playback data to the player du jour.
I would prefer a solution that doesn't require a change in the way that Vorbis handles tags.
There's also a massive barrier to entry in that players would need to understand the tags are there, what they're used for, and how to interpret them. This is a major issue, and people that make players are notorious for dragging their feet on adding even simple functionality. If there's going to be a lot of work done on getting the solution adopted by players, I want to make sure that the solution we offer them isn't a quick-and-dirty implementation, I want to make it something that kicks ass.
Maybe that means compromise so that replaygain doesn't need four tags, but makes do with just one. No tags are better than one, but one tag may be better than four.
Originally posted by Case The values could be stored in header in similar way MPC does. That would keep the values in files where they belong and tags wouldn't be needed. But if Vorbis header isn't prepared for additional data this is probably out of the guestion.