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Topic: WMA 9 Lossless Gapless? (Read 11365 times) previous topic - next topic
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WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Is WMA 9 Lossless truly gapless?

I just got done encoding Pink Floyd's "The Wall" as WMA 9 Lossless. The orginal WAV files were as perfect as anyone could hope to expect. First I ripped them using PlexTools Professional. Then I ripped with EAC as both individual tracks using Test & Copy and one large file which was then split into individual tracks via Split WAV by CUE Sheet. All three rips checked out identical using EAC's Compare WAVs tool. Anal? You bet! But this is my favorite album...so taking a few extra minutes to make sure I've got the perfect rip is worth it to me!

After encoding to WMA 9 Lossless (damn it's fast--about 15 seconds for a track vs a couple of minutes using Monkey's Audio or FLAC!), and then playing the tracks back in Wiindows Media Player 9, I end up hearing a large crack/pop noise between track 3 "Another Brick in the Wall, Pt. 1" and track 4 "The Happiest Days of Our Lives," instead of getting a perfect seamless transition. Strangely, though, the transitions between all the other tracks appear to be just fine.

Wondering if WMA 9 Lossless isn't gapless, I loaded the original .WAV files into Windows Media Player. Pop! The noise is still there! I guess that takes WMA 9 Lossless off the hook and puts the blame on Windows Media Player. Yes? No?

If I turn on crossfading and set the time to about 0.2 seconds, I get a nearly perfect transition, but that doesn't change the fact that Windows Media Player doesn't seem to be capable of truly gapless playback.

Playback of both original WAVs and AAC files within Apple's iTunes (both on my Mac OS X machine and my Windows XP Pro machine) have a clearly audible gap of nearly a second between each track. If I turn on crossfading and set the time to 0 seconds, I get the same effect as turing on crossfades in Windows Media Player, but clearly iTunes isn't capable of truly gapless playback either.

I'm sure someone is going to chime in and tell me to use "HALbar 9000," but I'm not too thrilled with its appearance or its cataloging features. Does Foobar support WMA 9 Lossless, by the way?

If the problem lies within the player(s), I suppose I'll just have to sit back and wait for the player(s) to be "fixed." In the mean time, though, if someone can tell me that WMA 9 Lossless is truly gapless, itself, I think I'm going to go with it. I started out with Monkey's Audio, and then made the switch to FLAC (in hopes that I'd eventually see support in OS X), but I can't get over how darned fast WMA 9 Lossless encodes! 10-15 seconds! Boom! Done! And Windows Media Player's ability to grab the rest of the tags from AMG is a big plus--since AMG is where I usually went to get the information on my own. And M$ has already provided a WMA 9 Lossless-capable player for OS X. Further, I'm thinking there's a much better chance that Apple will eventually add WMA support to iTunes than something like Monkey's Audio or FLAC.

Comments? Solutions?

Regards,

Jay
Watching for pigs on the wing...

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #1 –
1. Foobar can play WMA Lossless with a plugin

2. I'm not sure if WMP will have gapless playback in the future, since it's not something people (normal people) require.

3. Tags from AMG are cool!!! Does anyone know if there's any freeware that can read the AMG and put that in cdplayer.ini?

4. Did you try Mokey's Audio 'Fast' mode? In my PC it's faster than WMA Lossless.
"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #2 –
It's also possible that this may be a ripping error.  You would *think* that WMP would play lossless files gaplessly.

Have you tried to play the WAVs back gaplessly in WinAmp, to make sure WMP is the problem?  (To do so, you need to use the included DirectSound output plugin & make sure the "buffer ahead on track change" value is greater than the "prebuffer on start / seek / underrun" value.)

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #3 –
Windows Media Player v8 ist not gapless on WAVs that are ripped correctly and verified playing gaplessly *cough* somewhere else. Neither is Media Player Classic. Sounds like they need to reopen output between tracks, causing the pause.
Microsoft Windows: We can't script here, this is bat country.

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #4 –
It might just be the nature of DirectShow-based players, unless it is possible to deconstruct a running graph of everything but the output, construct a new graph onto it, and possibly tell the output the sample format/rate/channel count have changed.

Or, an internal output object which passes the sample data to an internal DirectSound/WaveOut/whatever output which remains open across files.

Gee, sounds like a pain.

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #5 –
@zzzzzz
Aha, an authority steps in.

Thanks, it just seemed bone-headed to me to have lossless audio but no gapless output.  I suppose that's MS for you.

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #6 –
If it can't be decoded gaplessly then you can't call it "lossless" first.
Microsoft Windows: We can't script here, this is bat country.

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #7 –
Quote
WAVs that are ripped correctly and verified playing gaplessly *cough* somewhere else.

I have since loaded the very same WMA 9 Lossless files into HALbar 9000 and they play without a hitch...no sign of any crack/pop between tracks 3 and 4...so that confirms that WMA 9 Lossless is gapless...but that Windows Media Player 9 is not capable of gapless playback.

So are there any magical add-ons for Foobar that turn it into an iTunes or WMP look-alike?

I'm still thinking I'm going to go with WMA 9 Lossless...and I love to hate M$ just as much as the next guy...

Regards,

Jay
Watching for pigs on the wing...

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #8 –
Quote
So are there any magical add-ons for Foobar that turn it into an iTunes or WMP look-alike?


Why would you want to do that? foobar2000, properly configured is much better looking IMHO. iTunes and WMA is a bloated mess trying to do everything at once.

Check fb2k formatting site for instance and foo_looks 2.0 thread. I think WinAmp 5 Modern skins are really good looking, but foo_looks 2.0 is said to be as capable. These questions however should go to the foobar forum.

BTW I think FLAC is a better option IMHO. And if you want lossless, single file ripping with embedded CUE sheets is the coolest thing.
The object of mankind lies in its highest individuals.
One must have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #9 –
Quote
Quote
So are there any magical add-ons for Foobar that turn it into an iTunes or WMP look-alike?

Why would you want to do that?

Because I think iTunes has the best looking/working interface around.

Quote
BTW I think FLAC is a better option IMHO.

Been there, done that. I started with Monkey's Audio and became quite the zealot for Matt...even setting up and moderating his mailing list. I switched to FLAC when I thought it might make it to OS X first. Now I'm thinking WMA 9 Lossless has a much better shot at working on both platforms. M$ already has a workable player out for OS X...and I'm thinking Apple will eventually add WMA support to iTunes in order to keep selling iPods like hotcakes. There is certainly nothing wrong with Monkey's Audio or FLAC, but in the end, they'll lose out to M$. "We are Borg. Resistance is futile."

Quote
single file ripping with embedded CUE sheets is the coolest thing.

Been there and done that as well. I don't see the point of embedded CUE sheets without them supporting TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER, etc., tags. I'm quite the freak for tags...and the fact that WMA has more of 'em...and can grab 'em lickity-split from AMG is the "coolest thing" in my own opinion.

Regards,

Jay
Watching for pigs on the wing...

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #11 –
Quote
Quote
single file ripping with embedded CUE sheets is the coolest thing.

Been there and done that as well. I don't see the point of embedded CUE sheets without them supporting TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER, etc., tags. I'm quite the freak for tags...and the fact that WMA has more of 'em...and can grab 'em lickity-split from AMG is the "coolest thing" in my own opinion.

But suppose FLAC cuesheets stored title/performer/artist/whatever.  After that it would be microseconds before people wanted some other tag.  Or wanted cover art for an album.  Can that fit in a cuesheet?  Even if it could I don't think it belongs there.

Pulling metadata from real databases automatically like WMP does is useful.  It seems really limiting for players to rely just on what is in tags, especially since they differ so much between each format.

What I proposed for FLAC+cuesheet is to use the MCN/ISRC numbers, or calculate a CDDB ID or CDindex from it, and automatically pull the detailed metadata from the web, maybe even into the player's database.  But instead of rallying behind it, most people are still asking for some tagging standard that is never going to happen.  We've been down that path, and it turned into id3v2.

Josh

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #12 –
>most people are still asking for some tagging standard that is never going to happen

What tag is that?

> or calculate a CDDB ID

This ID is know where near unqiue, I would guess that as many as 1 in 10 CDs have a conflic with other CDs.

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #13 –
Quote
Been there and done that as well. I don't see the point of embedded CUE sheets without them supporting TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER, etc., tags.

Doesn't Matroska container solve this problem? Check this out.

If you really want to use Windows technologies go ahead. I don't think they're designed for people who are technically capable and know what they need. Same goes for iTunes. But if you like the Burn button etc. and an interface that fills your entire screen, it's always up to you.
The object of mankind lies in its highest individuals.
One must have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #14 –
Quote
If you really want to use Windows technologies go ahead. I don't think they're designed for people who are technically capable and know what they need. Same goes for iTunes. But if you like the Burn button etc. and an interface that fills your entire screen, it's always up to you.

Or a proper/good Media Library that works, and has the functions that is required to be a good ML. Seems like you forgot to mention this.
myspace.com/borgei - last.fm/user/borgei

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #15 –
Quote
> or calculate a CDDB ID

This ID is know where near unqiue, I would guess that as many as 1 in 10 CDs have a conflic with other CDs.

that's OK, there are much better hashes than CDDB.  internally the player can use a good hash, and whenever there's a conflict for an album, it pops up and asks you which is it.  only has to happen the first time, from then on the album will be cataloged under the good hash.

or just use musicbrainz.

Josh

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #16 –
Quote
If you really want to use Windows technologies go ahead. I don't think they're designed for people who are technically capable and know what they need.

I'm very technically capable. I've programmed on both PCs and Macs since their perspective Day Ones, I've built several of my own computers, and I've been mucking around with digital audio for what seems like eons now. I was already recording/editing sound samples and music on Macs while PC users were still staring at DOS prompts. Because I know what I'm doing, I'm not allowed to appreciate a good user interface?

Quote
Same goes for iTunes. But if you like the Burn button etc. and an interface that fills your entire screen, it's always up to you.

So, if you're apparently above all of this, why were you asking around in a separate thread if anyone had screenshots of foo_tunes for you to look at as you thought it might be something you'd like to use?

Myself, I have no need for a "Burn" button, I actually use Nero for that, but I'd like to have a decent looking media library with tags, album art, and smart playlists, all of the things which are already supported in iTunes and Windows Media Player. I'd like iTunes and WMP to support gapless playback like Foobar does, to be sure, but I'd also like Foobar a heck of a lot more if it looked and worked like iTunes and WMP. Why can't I have both?

Since this thread has already been wandering all over the place...has anyone played around with J. River's Media Center 9/10? It looks like it supports Windows Media 9 Lossless, and has gapless playback, but it's kind of bloated in that it also handles all sorts of other media (digital pictures, video, etc.), and I'm really just looking for something to organize and play music. And, as stated, I'm looking for a lossless solution that will work on both PCs and Macs.

Regards,

Jay
Watching for pigs on the wing...

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #17 –
Quote
[Since this thread has already been wandering all over the place...has anyone played around with J. River's Media Center 9/10? It looks like it supports Windows Media 9 Lossless, and has gapless playback, but it's kind of bloated in that it also handles all sorts of other media (digital pictures, video, etc.), and I'm really just looking for something to organize and play music. And, as stated, I'm looking for a lossless solution that will work on both PCs and Macs.

I've been using J.River's Media Center 9.1 for the last 24hrs approx. And all i can say is WOW.. I've been using iTunes 4.1/4.2 and WMP9 before, and i really liked them, but they always missed something important.. one wouldnt play WMA, one wouldnt play AAC, and neither would play other formats like MPC/APE/Ogg + more..

Media Center 9.1 has better library functions than both iTunes and WMP9 i think. I just LOVE the "possible dupelist autoplaylist" function, i suddenly got rid of approx. 5 gigs of wasted space now! yay!.

It also supports playback of WMA9/WMA9 VBR and WMA9 Lossless, MP3, MPC, AAC/MP4/M4A, APE and alot more formats. It supports true gapless playback and ReplayGain. It uses less resources than both iTunes and WMP9. It can rip in secure mode from CD to whatever format you like (WMA9/VBR/Lossless, Lame MP3 -aps or whatever you choose, Ogg, and more). It can transcode between all these formats, and, well.. it just rocks!.. it has ALL the functions i was missing from these simple Media Library's (WMP9, iTunes), wrapped up in a nice look that beats WMP9 and iTunes (i think). It also supports portables, including the iPod, and, well, about everything imaginable..

I just love it already! and i won't be using WMP9 or iTunes for a good while.
myspace.com/borgei - last.fm/user/borgei

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #18 –
@PigsOfTheWing: I can confirm that there is a noise at the end of the 3rd track, here are the last seconds of the track: test sample. The noise lasts about 75ms and appears even if this is the only track on the playlist. The noise is not in the file and probably appears with every sound card (tested with VAC, SiS onboard and Terratec 6fire).

All other .wma files are played gapless so I suppose that this is just a bug in the WMP (or an easter egg?).

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #19 –
Quote
I can confirm that there is a noise at the end of the 3rd track

I listened to your sample but I didn't hear what I was talking about. It's a very loud crack/pop which occurs right at the point track 3 and track 4 meet. It's got nothing to do with the tracks having been converted to WMA, as the very same thing happens with the original WAVs, and only when played through Windows Media Player. As mentioned above, both the WAVs and the WMA Lossless 9 files play without the crack/pop in Foobar 2000. It appears that WMA Lossless 9 files are indeed gapless (no added silence that doesn't belong at the end of a track), but that Windows Media Player is not capable of playing one track right after the other without introducing gaps/silence of its own.

Regards,

Jay
Watching for pigs on the wing...

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #20 –
Well, in my case:
  • playing WMA-lossless encoded files (track3-track4) causes a crackle at the end of the 3rd track but no gap. The crackle is gone once xfading is on (0.0 secs overlap); all other files are played gaplessly and without distortion.
  • playing the test sample alone causes a 70ms crackle being played at the end of the file (the same as in the track3-track4 test).
  • playing .wav files (any tracks) causes a gap between tracks (xfading doesn't help), but no distortions.

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #21 –
Quote
Is WMA 9 Lossless truly gapless?

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=172310"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



So, on year later, what is your opinion now?  Does WMP10 perform any better than WMP9?  Are you still using WMA lossless, or have you switched to something else?

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #22 –
WMP10 has the same distortion bug, but the 0s crossfading workaround is still working here, so I personally am still using WMAL.

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #23 –
Quote
@zzzzzz
Aha, an authority steps in.

Thanks, it just seemed bone-headed to me to have lossless audio but no gapless output.  I suppose that's MS for you.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=172333"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The same is true of Apple Lossless when played back with iTunes.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

WMA 9 Lossless Gapless?

Reply #24 –
Quote
Is WMA 9 Lossless truly gapless?
[...]
After encoding to WMA 9 Lossless (damn it's fast--about 15 seconds for a track vs a couple of minutes using Monkey's Audio or FLAC!),
[...]
Regards,

Jay
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[a href="http://foobar2000.net/lossless/]http://foobar2000.net/lossless/[/url]