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Topic: ATRAC (minidisc) codecs (Read 14566 times) previous topic - next topic
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ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Where can i find technical specs (bitrate, etc) on the different ATRAC codecs? I have a Sharp minidisc recorder, but i don't think it's in the manual.

I'm also interested in finding out if people have done blind listening tests on the various ATRAC modes (SP, LP2, LP4) to measure any loss of quality between the less compressed and more compressed formats.

Thanks for any info or pointers!

g
Glauber Ribeiro
Yoyodine Propulsion Systems - The future starts tomorrow!

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #1 –
here

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #2 –
I believe there is plently of information at http://www.minidisc.org

As to audibility of ATRAC compression, I think its not a very good quality coding scheme, even using the highest quality mode: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....indpost&p=32792

Searching for ATRAC at here, you will find some other threads with more information and opinions.

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #3 –
Quote
As to audibility of ATRAC compression, I think its not a very good quality coding scheme, even using the highest quality mode: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....indpost&p=32792

Better not confuse ATRAC 4 (used in MD SP) and ATRAC 3 codec (LP2 & LP4) ... ATRAC 4 as a hardware codec has proven it's transparency since 1997
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #4 –
Quote
Better not confuse ATRAC 4 (used in MD SP) and ATRAC 3 codec (LP2 & LP4) ... ATRAC 4 as a hardware codec has proven it's transparency since 1997

So you're telling me that if i record to a minidisc in SP mode i'm making a transparent recording (but not LP2/4)?
Glauber Ribeiro
Yoyodine Propulsion Systems - The future starts tomorrow!

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #5 –
ATRAC 4 is good but the nearest we have for MP3 is 256k CBR which is also very good.

ATRAC3 is used by realaudio at some speeds and isn't bad for low bitrate listening.  Personally on Minidisk I prefer ATRAC4 and never used ATRAC3 other than to test it.  Stick with LAME MP3 or Ogg!

I'm back to solid state players now so it's academic.

Love,
Fairy

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #7 –
Quote
Quote
Better not confuse ATRAC 4 (used in MD SP) and ATRAC 3 codec (LP2 & LP4) ... ATRAC 4 as a hardware codec has proven it's transparency since 1997

So you're telling me that if i record to a minidisc in SP mode i'm making a transparent recording (but not LP2/4)?

Well, ATRAC 4 and its follow-ups use CBR (pure bitrate is around 288 kbps) which is the major MD flaw from the quality point of view since today's codecs are always tuned to provide constant quality ...

Sony came up at the end of 1996 and showed the first real-hifi MD Recorder (MDS-JE500) at a decent price and first listening tests back then stated that it is not reliably possible to distinguish between original and MD recording ... the probability of detection (and thus transparency) rose with the listening equipment quality ... as usual.

The State-Of-The-Art model Sony MDS-JA55ES (1998) was rated very good in HiFi mags all over the world (most reviewer's could not distinguish between MD and DAT anymore) which tells a lot about possible ATRAC4 quality ...

I bought an MDS-JE700QS back in 1997 which is still operational ... either for MD playback/recording or as a pure ADC/DAC since ATRAC is disabled when no disc is inserted ... and I could never spot a real difference between an MD copy and the original CD.

So much for transparency ...
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #8 –
Thanks, this is very good information. I was going to ask if ATRAC 4 is lossless but it's pretty clear from your posts that it isn't.

I think ATRAC and MD (and pretty much anything by Sony these days) are dead-end technologies, except for one thing: the portable MD recorder is the best affordable option for portable recording. I think of my MD as a really good cassette recorder (can't get digital audio out of it, but at least it's good analog audio). One day the portable MP3 recorders will catch up, but there's nothing out there that has the same ease of use as a Sharp 190 MD recorder. If there is, i'd like to know about it!
 

So i keep using the MD in situations where i need a small portable recorder.

The ideal device for me would be something like the Archos, with at least 40GB disk space, but allowing for recording WAV or a lossless compressed codec, besides MP3. But it has to be easy to use, has to have a microphone input, has to have recording level controllable through a hardware control, not some menu item, has to be reliable. Etc, etc, etc... I predict something suitable will be available within a couple of years.

g
Glauber Ribeiro
Yoyodine Propulsion Systems - The future starts tomorrow!

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #9 –
Quote
Quote
As to audibility of ATRAC compression, I think its not a very good quality coding scheme, even using the highest quality mode: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....indpost&p=32792

Better not confuse ATRAC 4 (used in MD SP) and ATRAC 3 codec (LP2 & LP4) ... ATRAC 4 as a hardware codec has proven it's transparency since 1997 

Quote
Sony came up at the end of 1996 and showed the first real-hifi MD Recorder (MDS-JE500) at a decent price and first listening tests back then stated that it is not reliably possible to distinguish between original and MD recording


...

Did you bother to read the thread I linked? I, and anyone that has average ears, can hear the flaws that ATRAC 4.5 SP causes on the linked test samples. Just read the thread.


Please, take notice of this. ATRAC SP 4.5 (and very likely next and current version ATRAC-R) is not transparent at all. The quality is quite worse than LAME --aps, even when the bitrate used is of 292 Kbps.

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #10 –
Quote
I believe there is plently of information at http://www.minidisc.org

As to audibility of ATRAC compression, I think its not a very good quality coding scheme, even using the highest quality mode: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....indpost&p=32792

Searching for ATRAC at here, you will find some other threads with more information and opinions.

Anyone else here try to ABX these samples?
http://www.pcabx.com/product/mds-jb920/index.htm
I'm not finding it very easy at all. Am I that bad at it or are these not really so easy to ABX?

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #11 –
@KikeG

Sorry, but I did not find the link particularly useful, just as it wasn't back when it was posted IMHO.

Don't get me wrong, ATRAC4.5 or -R or whatever can have its problems, but complaining about poor performance using one problem sample is not helpful in this instance.

Hell, fatboy still trips up LAME 3.90 @ insane, but it doesn't mean that all LAME 3.90 encodes @ insane are useless, does it?  (ATRAC also struggles with fatboy, but it is not significantly worse than LAME at a similar bitrate. Does this mean that LAME is as "bad" as ATRAC with ALL samples? I don't think so.)

No doubt this looks like a MD fanboy defence, and I do have a MD, and I love it, but it does have some short comings. It still meets my needs however, and over a large cross section of my music collection SP is transparent in every day listening. It also fairs quite well in ABX comparisons, although I have only done a few due to the difficulty in actually doing it with Sony's painful check-in/check-out crap. I have also come across some examples that are were clearly not transparent, but surprise, surprise, these are well known problem samples that trip up many of the so called good lossy encoders. One such sample is castanets.

Den.

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #12 –
I now have SonicStage2.0 installed
Any sample for me to encode to ATRAC3+ 256kpbs?

Avalaible compressions are:
  • ATRAC3 (MDPL)
    • 132kpbs (LP2)
    • 105kpbs
    • 66kpbs (LP4)
  • ATRAC3plus (Hi-MD)
    • 256kpbs (Hi-SP)
    • 64kpbs (Hi-LP)
    • 48kpbs

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #13 –
Where did you score Sonic Stage 2.0 from? (Legally I hope.) I'd be interested to try it with my trusty old MD, but also to see if these new ATRAC modes warrant me considering an upgrade to Hi-MD at a later date.

Thanks in advance,

Den

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #14 –
Don't worry. I found in in the minidisc forums. I'm not sure about the legality so I won't link here, but needless to say, it is fairly easy to find.

Thanks anyway,

Den.

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #15 –
I have SonicStage 1; it came installed in my Vaio computer. I used it to rip CDs a few times, it mostly works, but i don't like the way it tries to take over all the music functions in the computer, so i don't use it anymore.
Glauber Ribeiro
Yoyodine Propulsion Systems - The future starts tomorrow!

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #16 –
By the way, does anyone know how the mic-preamps in MD-Recorders compare to each other?
I was searching for Informations like this, but very unsucessfull

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #17 –
Hello!

I also own a Sharp MiniDisc player (MD-MT99) which can record in 4 mode: Stereo SP, Mono, LP2 and LP4. I understand that SP uses ATRAC 4, while LP uses ATRAC3. What about Mono?

Thanks in advance!

Sebastian

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #18 –
There's no ATRAC4.
SP is ATRAC format (or ATRAC1). There are many versions of ATRAC : v1, v2...v4.5, then Type R (Type S concern LP decoding).

Therefore, SP stereo and SP mono are using the same version of ATRAC encoder (depends on the chip embedded in your player).
Wavpack Hybrid -c4hx6

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #19 –
Has anybody bothered to test atrac3+ @ Hi-SP mode (256 kbps?)? It would be interesting to hear how good it is because Hi-MD units can store 8 hours of that on one disc.

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #20 –
I've downloaded SonicStage 2 in order to create some atrac3+ samples, and then comparing them to other formats. I don't know if the software work: I don't want to install it on my portable computer, and I don't have access for the moment to my desktop and main computer.

If the software will work, I'll upload decoded samples.

EDIT: however, quality should be OK for nomad listening. Even Blade (can't say Xing anymore) should be acceptable at the same bitrate than Hi-SP (256 kbps)
Wavpack Hybrid -c4hx6

ATRAC (minidisc) codecs

Reply #21 –
SonicStage2 full is out, unlimited checkout
Works with MD unlike the upgrade

The original download was a 200mb rip from a ATRAC3+ Walkman
Made a striped down version (21.6mb), now to test it...

Edit: Give it a try
http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?p=18173#18173