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Topic: Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance (Read 9736 times) previous topic - next topic
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Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #25 –
Quote
So, two guys discuss a CD on a forum, and A offers to share the CD so B can download it and take it for a test drive. B tries it out and decides not to buy it, so he scraps it. If he likes it, then he should buy the CD plain and simple (at that point, the existence of the copy is academic).

In the example above you advocate breaking the law for the purposes of "test driving," then afterward you advocate deleting the files (as if this changes the fact that the law was broken).  You've created your own quasi-legal system?  Sorry to say it, but this is really a bunch of BS as far as I'm concerned (no insult intended).

If you think someone "should" do this or "should" do that, please join a church... AFAIC there are common grounds to discuss legality, but morality is a personal matter.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #26 –
Quote
Quote
So, two guys discuss a CD on a forum, and A offers to share the CD so B can download it and take it for a test drive. B tries it out and decides not to buy it, so he scraps it. If he likes it, then he should buy the CD plain and simple (at that point, the existence of the copy is academic).

In the example above you advocate breaking the law for the purposes of "test driving," then afterward you advocate deleting the files (as if this changes the fact that the law was broken).  You've created your own quasi-legal system?  Sorry to say it, but this is really a bunch of BS as far as I'm concerned (no insult intended).

If you think someone "should" do this or "should" do that, please join a church... AFAIC there are common grounds to discuss legality, but morality is a personal matter.

I never advocated the file sharing scenario, I only recommended the corrective action...

  "If it's a truly obscure artist and you resort to P2P, either buy the music or not - but delete the files once you've made up your mind."

I think it's pretty clear that I have a problem with both parties, and I was giving my 2 cents from an "honesty" perspective. If you disagree - great! As far as the church comment is concerned, so much for the free flow of ideas...

Don't put words in my mouth - and no offense taken.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #27 –
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Anarchy on the internet? Exactly! And that's how the internet should be in the first place. Every sort of idea/information has a right to be communicated if required. Not because they're necessarily things we enjoy seeing but because we need to be able to access everything to come up with our own conscious decision. This doesn't seem possible with the current governments trying to stop particular ideologies/files that they don't like. If anyone is offended it's his own problem. This will have a drastic influence on the way we perceive life and laws on everyday life. An amazing change just like the start of internet brought about.

Free communication is irrelevant for the average people. They do not care nor can reach the whole internet. Even google knows about 1/6th of it. So anarchy will stay at this level, where p2p is tolerated but already controlled.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #28 –
I believe some of what these kind people are trying to tell you F1Sushi, is that morality is subjective, and so are laws based on morality. For instance, what might offend your average American citizen, might not even faze somebody who is Japanese.

It's true that some laws, such as public sex, do belong on the books, because of majority agreement. However, the record companies' bullshit about morality is ill-founded. They have screwed music artists for decades on end. Nobody plugged the laws they've had put through Congress but them (welcome to a capitalist society -- corporations make the rules in our day and age).

There's nothing moral about them -- they're the pot calling the kettle black in this case. I don't feel a bit sorry for them.

Even if we were to download free music for the next century or so, we would never be leeching enough profits to even slightly equal what they have stolen themselves from the artists.

Don't you wonder why most music sounds the same now? Newsflash: this isn't about treating the artists right, or the music.

I won't buy a damned thing from a record company that I know rips artists off. That's *my* morality kicking in, there.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #29 –
I guess my main point is that legality and morality are really two separate issues, and I wish people wouldn't so readily confuse them.  Many seem to equate breaking the law with an (often unstated) moral transgression, whereas it's really an act with potential consequences -- no more and no less.

Many laws have no foundation in morality, and vice-versa.  Some things that are perfectly legal (e.g. hunting) might be morally repugnant to some, and some things that are illegal are morally acceptable.  As you say, it's subjective.

As far as file sharing... I have nothing morally against it myself, but don't do it much anymore (for multiple reasons -- potential consequences being one).  These days I'm back to buying second hand/used CDs and LPs, for the most part.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #30 –
I do find it kind of funny that he's building his arguments on a "stealing from the thieves is wrong" mentality too, just because they have the cash to make it illegal.

He might as well just imagine every corporation's wish list for how society should be and get started right now on following whatever they would want him to do.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #31 –
I just wanted to chime in with why I download songs...

Plain and simple, I like to hear it before I buy it.  I used to buy cd's quite often, several every payday.  Now that I'm a little older, I have bills to pay.  Couple that with the fact that cd's are now even MORE expensive, and the fact that I've bought too many cd's that I ended up not liking...

I hate to buy a cd, not like it, then have to sell it for less than half of what I payed. 

I usually download entire albums.  If I don't like it, I delete it. 

However, if I find myself listening to it enough, I'll buy it.

Like someone else said, the music I like is almost never played on the radio, mtv, or what have you.  There are several bands that I discovered by downloading.  If someone hadn't posted those mp3's, I never would have bought those cd's. 

Another reason, let's use the new Outkast as an example.  I like the Andre 3000 cd, but hate the Big Boi disc.  Unfortunately, you can only by them together, for over 20 dollars!  That's way to much to pay for one cd.  Same with other discs that, after tax, cost close to or over 20 dollars.  It's absurd.

I had actually stopped buying new music a while back.  Hadn't bought a cd in two years, then a friend of mine told me about this new program called Napster.  Ever since then, I buy a 2 cd's a month, which is a lot more than I bought prior to Napster. 

P2P actually made me want to buy cd's again.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #32 –
Quote
I just wanted to chime in with why I download songs...

Plain and simple, I like to hear it before I buy it. 

That's valid.  Do you encourage publishers and artists who are willing  to deal that way by downloading and/or streaming their  product and buying the ones you like?

That's more likely to swing producers to your way of thinking than using P2P  to download works from the unwilling .

Here are some publishers I like to deal with:

mp3.com,, A huge variety,  some of it good.  Half the CD price goes to the artist.  Unfortunately they appear to be going out of business.

Bluenote Records: many of their artists have songs and/or concert recordings available for free download.

Magnatune.com: any track or album from their catalog can be streamed at 128 kb/s mp3.
WHen you buy  at name-your-own-price (I think the minimum is $5) the artist gets half,  then you can download a choice of high rate mp3, Ogg, Flac, or wav files.

There are others who may suit your musical taste better.

The point is these firms are selling the way you and some others in this thread  say
you want to buy.  If you don't encourage them then your argument falls flat.


Quote
Same with other discs that, after tax, cost close to or over 20 dollars. It's absurd.


The normal way to deal with someone who charges too much is to boycot, not steal.
It's not like they have a monopoly on something necessary for survival.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #33 –
I just have this to say:

Long live file sharing!

And if yuo want to compensate the artist, send fanmail with a check for $5. That's more than the artist gets if you purchase his/her album.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #34 –
Quote
I guess my main point is that legality and morality are really two separate issues, and I wish people wouldn't so readily confuse them.  Many seem to equate breaking the law with an (often unstated) moral transgression, whereas it's really an act with potential consequences -- no more and no less.

Many laws have no foundation in morality, and vice-versa.  Some things that are perfectly legal (e.g. hunting) might be morally repugnant to some, and some things that are illegal are morally acceptable.  As you say, it's subjective.

As far as file sharing... I have nothing morally against it myself, but don't do it much anymore (for multiple reasons -- potential consequences being one).  These days I'm back to buying second hand/used CDs and LPs, for the most part.

The link between morality and legality is a tenuous one, since many of our laws are based on morality, and many aren't. To make matters worse, many laws based on one's moral convictions might offend another's. I'm certainly not blind to that.

With that in mind, I have trouble separating the moral issue from the act of rewarding an artist, and I get the impression that pretty well everyone here is on the same side of the fence when it comes to wanting the artist to get his/her compensation for our enjoyment of their efforts - and for moral reasons, not legal ones. I think the law is on the same side of the fence as well, except with respect to how the proceeds are split up.

Where I'm coming from is that some reasons given for file sharing attempt to use the moral argument as a precedent over the legal. It's when people falsely hide behind morality as the reason for breaking the law that, frankly, rubs me the wrong way. While some people download for what they feel are valid reasons, most download based on their own greed and lack of concern for the artist. It's not a black and white scenario.

Cudos to all who see the artist as the focal point on this topic.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #35 –
Quote
Here are some publishers I like to deal with:

mp3.com,, A huge variety,  some of it good.  Half the CD price goes to the artist.  Unfortunately they appear to be going out of business.

Bluenote Records: many of their artists have songs and/or concert recordings available for free download.

Magnatune.com: any track or album from their catalog can be streamed at 128 kb/s mp3.
WHen you buy  at name-your-own-price (I think the minimum is $5) the artist gets half,  then you can download a choice of high rate mp3, Ogg, Flac, or wav files.

There are others who may suit your musical taste better.

The point is these firms are selling the way you and some others in this thread  say
you want to buy.  If you don't encourage them then your argument falls flat.

Also, cheap-cds.com has a HUGE librabry of CDs. Most of their library sports samples of every CD track, not just one or two...plenty of opportunity to sample before you buy.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #36 –
Quote
He might as well just imagine every corporation's wish list for how society should be and get started right now on following whatever they would want him to do.

That's a stretch...

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #37 –
I still buy CDs from time to time. I don't have many of them (200+). But I stopped buying as much CDs as I did some 2+ years ago. I don't know if it's because I'm older and/or I can't spend so much money on music or the fact that nowadays "free" music is more accessible.

By "free" I mean not only because of p2p, but also because CD-RWs are now almost universal and people "trade" audio CDs much more. I don't know if I would buy 30 original audio CDs per month if I had the money. But I certainly don't have that money (30 original audio CDs cost the equivalent of 1.5 times the minimum monthly wage here in Portugal). Nowadays I cannot listen to the same albuns every day, like I did some years ago.

The fact that downloading albums is illegal won't surelly stop me from listening to them. I buy some of the albums I download (normally 2 per month), which I think is more than the average. Mainly because I like the music so much that I decide to give the author some money, even if nowadays most of the money goes to the record company.

I ask for the right to listen new sounds, new ways of self-expression, without having to waste my salary. And the internet makes it possible, legally or not. If there was a cheap flat rate legal way with almost ALL albums that exist (in a non crippled/protected good lossy format) I would adhere gladly. Even if it had some kind of limit (5 GB/month). But that maybe asks for changes in copyright and IP laws.

Note: I also believe that IP should end. But that's another discussion and it's way too utopic to ask for that in a short/medium term.

cya

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #38 –
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The normal way to deal with someone who charges too much is to boycot, not steal. It's not like they have a monopoly on something necessary for survival.

It's not stealing, it's copyright infringement. You can't steal something unless you deprive someone else of its use.

Of course copyright infringement can reduce profits/income, but they are two different things. You could also reduce profits/income by competing with a business perfectly legally, by copying material within the limits of fair use or you could also reduce their profit/income , to give a random example, by boycotting them.

I'm intrigued as to why damaging a business in one way is acceptable but not the other.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #39 –
DonP! Magnatune is very good. Loved the idea. they offer 88.2kHz/24 bit recordings for at least one album I saw.

Where are the free downloads in BlueNote? Couldn't find any such thing.
The object of mankind lies in its highest individuals.
One must have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #40 –
Quote
one can mathematically guarantee anonymity for file transfers using FreeNet or some other software (which implies there could exist no enforcement of any arbitrary laws on the internet in any way, because no one can spot you down unless they use immense computational resources which is not available on the planet).


That scenario will only become reality if TCPA fails. Otherwise you won't be able to use freenet...

Now, I usually don't buy CDs. But I do use file-sharing software. If I really like an artist/band's work, I'll go and buy some of their CD's or DVD... And if they perform live some place near, I will buy tickets for the concert. And that's it.

Withouth p2p... maybe instead of buying some cds and going to a lot of concerts, I would only buy a couple of cds..

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #41 –
Quote
Where are the free downloads in BlueNote? Couldn't find any such thing.

The trick here is the downloads aren't actually on the Bluenote site, but on the  artists' home pages, so it takes a little clicking to get there. 

Example: from Bluenote I click on "artists" then pick maybe "Jones, Norah", then -> "artist links" -> "The Official Norah Jones Website" ->"Music"

Some of what is there is Real Audio, some is 160 kb/s mp3, but a total of a couple of hours of music.  And I did buy the CD after downloading.. and before I had heard much of her on the radio (ie the post-grammy flood), so the downloads DID lead to the purchase.

Another Blue note artist:
http://www.patriciabarber.com/av/index.html

Since the artists are putting up what they want, some of them may not have any downloads, or maybe 2 minutes out of a 4 minute song, but at least it appears that Blue note is not deterring them from giving as much as they want.

Edit: Apologies that I didn't remember how decentralized the samples were.

Speaking of cool attitudes from blue note artists, this from The Jazz Mandolin Project (a bluenote group from my area):
"Taping and Photography Policy

    Since its inception in 1993, the Jazz Mandolin Project has always been very taper friendly. We welcome any one to come with their own gear to tape as long as none of it is on the stage or distracting the other listeners and viewers and is not used for any commercial use.

    JMP is fine with photographing, with or without a flash. But not during sound check"

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #42 –
I'm gonna check out Magnatune.com.

Though to be honest, I wouldn't pay to download.  I would download, then if I thought the music was worth buying, I would actually buy the cd.  I like to have the actual cd, the booklets, etc...

And those sites that offer small samples of the songs seem to be missing the point.  I can't judge whether or not I like a song from a mere 30 seconds.  That might work with standard pop songs that go nowhere musically, but for longer songs that actually have a structure that differs from the usual verse chorus repeat, it wouldn't work. 

And if the sites listed have nothing that I like, then why would I support them?  I may encourage them, but if they have nothing to offer me, I won't be spending money there.
 

Don't say theft when you mean rational avoidance

Reply #43 –
apparently Century Media offers MP3's of their bands, and they have a few that I like! 

I also like the Craw puts ALL of their mp3's on their site, though for different reasons.