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Topic: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24  (Read 7171 times) previous topic - next topic
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George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

I upgraded the 32-bit Foobar from v. 1.6.18 to v. 2.24 and now everytime I launch Foobar and at the moment I click play, it crashes. I found that the crashes are caused by George Yohng's VST Wrapper (foo_dsp_vstwrap.dll).

Is it possible to make the George Yohng's VST Wrapper compatible with v. 2.24 (32-bit)?

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #1 –
Use the first party VST wrapper Peter made.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #2 –
Quote from: mudlord on
Use the first party VST wrapper Peter made.
Which is like a zillion times more stable than the Yohng, accepts 32 or 64 bit VST2 or VST3 plugins, etc. etc.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #3 –
Quote from: mudlord on
Use the first party VST wrapper Peter made.

It is not convenient in use.  Each time the user changes any settings in a vst plugin, the music stops playing, there is a 5 second pause. There is no way to adjust anything on the fly - be it volume adjustment, or activation of an equalizer or comparing different plugin configurations.  How can music be enjoyed this way?

Is there any way how to adjust the settings of Peter's VST wrapper to allow it implement changes in VST settings immediately, without a long pause?

Why George Yohng's VST wrapper could do it beginning from 2009, but first party wrapper cannot do it in 2024? Why such regress?

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #4 –
It is working in my environment below.

George Yohng's VST Wrapper (foo_dsp_vstwrap) v1.2
https://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html

foobar2000 v2.24 : 32-bit
Windows 11 Home 24H2




SHURE SRH1840, SENNHEISER HD660S2, SENNHEISER HD620S, SENNHEISER HD 490 Pro Plus, beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, HiFiMAN Edition XS, HIFIMAN ANANDA, Bowers & Wilkins P7, FiiO FT5, FiiO FT1 Pro, 水月雨 (MOONDROP) 空鳴 - VOID, SONY WH1000XM5 (made a Upgrade/Balanced Cable by myself)

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #5 –
I used the Yohng VST host for years when Foobar was only 32-bit and had no native host.

You can only use one VST plugin at a time, and zero support for VST3 or 64-bit versions.  And forget about using with a 64-bit Foobar.

With an effect chainer plugin using more than one VST plugin at the same time was doable, although plugins that work fine together in the new Foobar would sometimes crash the Yohng plugin or produce distorted audio.

In the Foobar 2.24 VST host you CAN both display a particular VST plugin GUI while playing music, and adjust its settings in real-time without any "5-second pause," by using the View/DSP/(choose plugin) from the top menu bar (note: NOT the View/Visualizations/Visualize with VST choice).

Nice-looking screenshots do not change the fact that the Yohng plugin, pretty good in its day, is now a deprecated and inferior choice.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #6 –
Quote from: ironmine on
It is not convenient in use.  Each time the user changes any settings in a vst plugin, the music stops playing, there is a 5 second pause. There is no way to adjust anything on the fly - be it volume adjustment, or activation of an equalizer or comparing different plugin configurations.  How can music be enjoyed this way?
I'm very confused??? How on earth did you manage to achieve such behavior? I can't think of any circumstance where a DSP adjustment would cause a 5 second pause.
Btw, I'd argue that music is enjoyed not by tinkering with VSTs, but by listening to it.

Quote from: ironmine on
Is there any way how to adjust the settings of Peter's VST wrapper to allow it implement changes in VST settings immediately, without a long pause?
All DSP settings take effect immediately to the decoded data, but when you hear the change is always affected by the length of your foobar2000 output buffer. This is true for Peter's VST wrapper, it is true for George Yohng's VST wrapper, and it is true for all native foobar2000 DSPs too. By default the output buffer is 1000 ms long, so that's the delay before realtime DSP adjustments are heard.

If immediate effect of DSP adjustments is more important to you than guaranteed glitchless playback, reduce the output buffer length.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Case on
I can't think of any circumstance where a DSP adjustment would cause a 5 second pause.

What can I do to convince you? What sort of proof should I provide? A video clip perhaps?

I have Windows 7.

This setup - George Yohng's VST Wrapper > Art-Teknika Console (it's a very convenient and visual VST chainer) > a bunch of VST plugins - works very well and is very stable, even with sophisticated vst plugin. Every time I start Foobar, Art-Teknika is there, it opens up automatically be default. Unlike the VST host adapter, I don't have to call it up every time after I start Foobar by going to View/DSP/(choose plugin) from the top menu bar.  Once I start listening to an album, if I notice a lack of dynamics - I activate Thimeo Stereotool; if I notice a lack of bass - I activate DMG Audio Equilibrium equalizer; if I notice clipping - I move the slider in Airwindows Bitshiftgain one step down). Changes are applied 2-3 seconds later, music does not pause even for a millisecond. Nothing destroys my mood or atmosphere the music has created.

But when the setup is like this - VST host adapter > Art-Teknika Console > the very same chain of plugins - it causes causes pauses in music playback when I do exactly the same plugin manipulations as I described above. I don't touch or change any other Foobar settings such as buffer, etc. There is a 5 or 7 second pause (silence) before changes I have made kick in. It just destroys the music listening mood.

So, what am I supposed to think?

Quote from: Case on
Btw, I'd argue that music is enjoyed not by tinkering with VSTs, but by listening to it.

So, I have to suffer through the whole album which is deficient in dynamics or high frequencies or bass? Why? Because the VST host adapter is made in such a way that it can't replicate the pause-free behavior of a very old VST wrapper made 14 years ago?

I thought that Art-Teknika in the role of a vst chainer may be the culprit. But no - to exclude this possibility, I replaced it with BlueCat's Patchwork and DDMF MetaPlugin, and I still got the same results.

By the way, with the VST host adapter, even if I haven't made any changes in the settings of a vst plugin, when I just simply close the window, the music stops playing for 5-7 seconds.

I come to the conclusion that the issue lies in the way how the VST host adapter communicates with a vst chainer (any vst chainer).

Or maybe this is the way it works in Windows 7.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #8 –
Windows 7 doesn't affect things. But based on your description those VST chainers could be the cause. The silence/pause you described is not added by the VST wrapper, changes are instant.
With foobar2000 design you don't use any chainers, you add a separate VST DSP entry for each DSP you use.

Also as Air Ken said, there is nothing in newer foobar2000 that breaks the old DSP component. It has always been buggy, it's just bad luck for you if it now works even worse than before.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Case on
With foobar2000 design you don't use any chainers, you add a separate VST DSP entry for each DSP you use.
I think many do not realize this.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Case on
But based on your description those VST chainers could be the cause.

How can these VST chainers be the cause, if the very same chainers behave normally when they are linked to Foobar via George Yohng's wrapper?

It feels as though 2.x/3.x vst adapter clears some kind of buffer as soon as its window is closed or any settings in a vst plugin are changed, causing Foobar to stop playing for a while waiting for the buffer to fill again.

Quote from: Case on
With foobar2000 design you don't use any chainers, you add a separate VST DSP entry for each DSP you use.

Art-Teknika Console and other chainers I tried allow running vst plugins in parallel.
A stack of 2.x/3.x vst adapters does not.

Art-Teknika Console and other chainers show "the whole picture", all the plugins at once, allowing easy access to any of them.

If 2.x/3.x vst adapter were more convenient, I would have switched to it a long time ago.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #11 –
I installed Foobar v. 2.1.5 and George Yohng's VST wrapper works alright in this version.
So, something happened between v. 2.1.5 and v. 2.24.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #12 –
In the office, I have Windows 10 -in Foobar (64 bit, v. 2.24.1), this setup VST 2.x/3.x Adapter > Art-Teknika vst chainer (32-bit) > a bunch of 32-bit VST plugins works ok. Changing the settings in the VST plugins while the music is playing does not cause any interruptions or pauses.

So, I guess, the problem lies in the fact that I have Windows 7 at home.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #13 –
For foobar2000 the OS really should be irrelevant in this task. I don't think the VST wrapper uses any OS functionality that could even potentially cause a difference. And DSP chain tech doesn't need to involve operating system either.
But the VST components themselves could behave differently on different OSes. Or the issue is caused by some yet unidentified setting difference.
To rule out weird settings, you could verify in a clean portable install with nothing but the VST component added.

If there is a bug causing pauses, I believe Peter would like to get it fixed. But if reproducing such issue requires buying VST plugins costing hundreds of dollars, he may not be so happy.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #14 –
Nevermind, I will make do with what I have.

Yet I have a couple of suggestions if I may:

1) If during the previous session of Foobar the user brought to the front ("View > DSP > ...") a component or plugin, then Foobar needs to remember this layout and start next time with the same view.  Same should apply to the VST that the user has chosed to bring to the front with "View > Visualizations > Visualize with VST > ... ".

It's kind of boring to always have to do the same actions everytime you want to start Foobar and listen to music.

2) Consider expanding the 2.x/3.x VST adapter functionality and turn it into a vst host in which individual vst plugins can be turned off and on, linked in parallel, etc. Nothing fancy, just the basic routing functionality. Maybe there should be the simple (currntly existing) 2.x/3.x VST adapter variant, plus another variant (2.x/3.x VST host adapter) which can act as a simple host.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #15 –
Checkout Kushview Element. I tried it as vst host called by foobar as an “effect“. Works quite well. Can host many other VSTs.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #16 –
Quote from: ironmine on
In the office, I have Windows 10 -in Foobar (64 bit, v. 2.24.1), this setup VST 2.x/3.x Adapter > Art-Teknika vst chainer (32-bit) > a bunch of 32-bit VST plugins works ok. Changing the settings in the VST plugins while the music is playing does not cause any interruptions or pauses.

So, I guess, the problem lies in the fact that I have Windows 7 at home.

And your refusal to upgrade: Absolutely. Like many others, I seen people force me to support software on systems that are 20-30 years beyond their use-by date, and then complain it doesn't work. For something thats done for free.

Yeh, heard it all before over the years. Can't not see why people are annoyed. And people wonder why I generally hate people.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #17 –
Quote from: mudlord on
Yeh, heard it all before over the years. Can't not see why people are annoyed. And people wonder why I generally hate people.
Don't take this comment as agreeing with people who expect free work from devs but...

The mentality that the newest thing is the best, that people should be always  "upgrading" their OS, their PC,... is so toxic. A perfect example of that mentality: Win 11 arrives and forces everyone to just toss their perfectly working PC because it is "not supported" thanks to useless requirements for 99% of the population. Just buy a new thing.  ::)  (win 10 was supposed to be the last OS xd)

It seems for some people, specially occidental people, resources are infinite and there is no need to care about electronic waste. Everybody has money to buy the next new thing or knowledge to be up to date with all changes.

If a thing from 20 years works fine, there is zero need to change it. And most things which don't work are due to programmed obsolescence or laziness at dev level (not pointing at you) which comes from that mentality. And every year is worse, now most frameworks and software is expected to be broken in a few years due to APIs usage or infinite dependencies which are constantly changing or being deprecated. Everything must be constantly developed and updated.

Also from an user POV it's hard to understand you need to update something which already works to have further incompatibilities and nothing new or better. Like I don't care about v1 or v200, or internals, people just care that the thing works in their situation,

I would appreciate if people just say "I don't have time or energy to support older OSes than the one I use" and stop ranting about what people should be using, because a lot of us don't agree with those ideas.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #18 –
So far as I can see, OS upgrades are mostly about using more CPU clock cycles to make things look visually more impressive / fashionable on screen, which runs slow enough on older systems there is an irritation to upgrade your hardware.  It's a conspiracy.  I don't need fancy desktop visuals, a word processor runs just fine without them.  Plus you get all the snooping and system-unavailable-while-I-download-and-install-the-latest-update-over-your-3Mbps-Internet-whether-you-like-it-or-not.

That's why I'm still on Win7, and I would be on Win98 if it weren't that Win98 didn't support USB.  I have Win7 on a notebook (which I use as a desktop) and two netbooks.  And my AMD Ryzen system runs Linux Mint.  If there's something which won't run on WIn7 or Mint, I do without it.

Just my 2p worth.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #19 –
Just to clarify that for foobar2000's part this topic really has nothing to do with Windows 7. I just verified, even though I knew it is pointless, that Peter's VST wrapper causes zero delays even when used on Windows 7.

Other than that I do agree that developing only for the latest and greatest hardware or OS is short sighted and lazy.
 

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #20 –
Once upon a time a CPU didn't need drivers, it simply ran the code.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: George Yohng's VST Wrapper does not work after upgrading from 1.6.18 to 2.24

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Case on
Just to clarify that for foobar2000's part this topic really has nothing to do with Windows 7. I just verified, even though I knew it is pointless, that Peter's VST wrapper causes zero delays even when used on Windows 7.

Other than that I do agree that developing only for the latest and greatest hardware or OS is short sighted and lazy.

Ah cool, thanks for confirming, so it must be a system quirk.

Quote from: regor on
I would appreciate if people just say "I don't have time or energy to support older OSes than the one I use"

I can respect that, and likewise I only have the energy to support processors that I actually have the means to test on. My oldest PC is a Skylake which runs Linux but can run Windows dual boot if needs be.

So my requirements for things are SSE4 and NEON, since I also have a RPI5.