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Topic: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible??? (Read 1820 times) previous topic - next topic
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FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Hi there!
I'm newbie here, so dont hit me too hard  :))
Is there anybody able to make working FB2K with LAN port?
FB2K greatly works with my HiFiMAN Goldenwave Serenade connected to USB, even in PCM 768kHz mode, but with LAN port I could make it working with ROON only, DSD 512 works like a charm, and it sounds much better than with USB.
Is there any working solution?

Thank You in advance!
Have a good one!

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #1 –
It is very difficult to find any information about network interface of this device. No word in the manual.
So, please install foo_out_upnp plugin in your foobar: https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_upnp
Restart foobar.

Make sure your HiFiMAN Goldenwave Serenade is up, connected to your Ethernet network, and the network input is selected (don't know how, no word in manual).

Go to foobar - "Preferences > Playback > Output > UPnP Media Renderer Output" page.
On the right, there is a list "Found devices".
You should see something which refers to your HiFiMAN device.

If yes, then we are at home and lucky: go to "Preferences > Playback > Output" page, on the right panel select in "Devices" drop-down list your HiFiMAN Device, anything like "UPnP: HiFiMAN..." or somenthing similar.
Try to play a track in foobar. Should work.

If there is no HiFiMAN device in the "Found devices" - either there is no network connectivity between your computer and the DAC, or network input is not activated there, or the device doesn't function as a UPnP/DLNA renderer.

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #2 –
Yeah ... It would be a great soulution, if it could be working  :(

HiFiMAN Serenade connected directly to the second LAN port of my PC, which is operating in bridge mode together the first LAN port, connected to the router. Advanced IP Scanner detects DAC on the IP=169.254.6.211, and this address cannot be changed even if it's connected to the router with DHCP on. So ROON it detects and great works with. Device properties in ROON see on the screenshots. At the same time FB2K couldnot detect it as UPnP device, and list of "Found devices" is empty (see screenshot).  Also I cant add my device in the list manualy, unfortunately.
Who knows, perhaps some config strings should be added for the HiFiMAN Serenade, but it's undocumeted, at least I couldnt find it.

Anyways thank You so much for Your advice! I'll try to communicate with an author of this FB2K component  ;)

Have a good one!

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #3 –
Thanks for your feedback!
HiFiMAN Goldenwave Serenade collects lots of positive feedback, mainly of its R2R section of the DAC. So it is good to have this missing knowledge. It would be great to make it working as a DLNA renderer.

The fact that it is working with ROON shows that is is purely software issue, and only on the HiFiMAN side.
Of course you can try contacting Peter regarding the foo_out_upnp plugin but I think he has nothing to do here.
And remember - ROON and UPnP/DLNA are using different network protocols which are completely incompatible. ROON is a closed, proprietary licensed and paid solution. UPnP/DLNA is the solution from the free and open source software domain. Money counts...
So I'd rather attack HiFiMAN to update its embedded streaming software in order to extend its functionality to be also UPnP/DLNA renderer. I hope their deal with ROON doesn't forbid this... You never know... Money counts...

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #4 –
Yep, it looks like ROON being paid solution works with everything it found in its environment  8)

Regarding HFM Serenade - I read somewhere it works via FTP, but nothing more was said there unfortunately.
I think You're right regarding an attack of HFM support, cuz on their support driver page they placed only drivers for FB2K and nothing more (see screenshot), but theese drivers not covers all device abilities. I'll try to ask 'em  ;)

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #5 –
Attached screenshot covers only connecting HiFiMAN through USB - the XMOS driver. The rest are common fb2k plugins, you should look for their latest versions, btw.

Regarding FTP - I think this means something different than you hope. FTP doesn't serve here to control the device in any way.

I suspect, that you can configure HiFiMAN to read audio files from different sources: be it locally connected USB drive, or a NAS mapped share, or a FTP directory, where you store your audio library. FTP server only serves them, but it doesn't push them do the device. It is the device which pulls files from FTP directory and processes them. And only in this context you should understand its "FTP support". - "I can read from FTP".

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #6 –
Also you don't need AsioProxyInstall anymore. It is obsolete now.
Use foo_out_asio+dsd and foo_input_sacd from here.

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #7 –
Quote from: papavlos on
Attached screenshot covers only connecting HiFiMAN through USB - the XMOS driver. The rest are common fb2k plugins, you should look for their latest versions, btw.

Regarding FTP - I think this means something different than you hope. FTP doesn't serve here to control the device in any way.

I suspect, that you can configure HiFiMAN to read audio files from different sources: be it locally connected USB drive, or a NAS mapped share, or a FTP directory, where you store your audio library. FTP server only serves them, but it doesn't push them do the device. It is the device which pulls files from FTP directory and processes them. And only in this context you should understand its "FTP support". - "I can read from FTP".
Yep, with USB-port it greatly works in all three ways: ASIO/ASIO+DSD/ASIOProxy (used version 0.9.4), and regarding ASIOProxy - I was thinking that it's the thing what I need, just because the word "Proxy" smells with networking, and I circled around it, but it was a bad idea  :D  8)

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #8 –
Suprisingly little information about the functionality of that device online and nothing in the manual. But I saw few mentions that the device should support UPnP on random review sites.
Your network setup however sounds rather weird. I believe the foo_out_upnp component doesn't handle your computer's rather unique network setup, so chances are that it doesn't even attempt to find anything for you behind the second card. Is there a reason for such configuration? Wouldn't it make more sense to plug the Hifiman to a switch or directly to the router, if it has enough ports?

I'm fairly certain you won't be able to send DSD to UPnP with existing foobar2000 components.

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #9 –
Quote from: eEzZ on
Looking at the installed components screenshot: actually you can uninstall foo_out_asio component because the second foo_out_asio+dsd already does the same.

I second Case remark: can you connect HiFiMAN to the router? or use a switch? To be sure that your computer uses just one network card at a time.

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Case on
Suprisingly little information about the functionality of that device online and nothing in the manual. But I saw few mentions that the device should support UPnP on random review sites.
Your network setup however sounds rather weird. I believe the foo_out_upnp component doesn't handle your computer's rather unique network setup, so chances are that it doesn't even attempt to find anything for you behind the second card. Is there a reason for such configuration? Wouldn't it make more sense to plug the Hifiman to a switch or directly to the router, if it has enough ports?
Just for the sake of experiment, to check your hypothesis about the "strange network configuration", it is certainly possible to connect the DAC to the router, although for this I will have to make a cable about 15 meters long, which will undoubtedly affect the signal quality, or another way - to connect switch between my PC and router, and DAC connect to this one also.
My task was to connect the DAC to the computer directly, using a high-quality  7th Cat patch cord, in order to get maximum sound quality, cuz only with LAN connection this DAC is able to provide full support of DSD512 and PCM 768kHz output, otherwise USB connection is quite enough. From other side even using USB I'm able to get PCM 768kHz, despite of these features were undocumented.
Quote from: Case on
I'm fairly certain you won't be able to send DSD to UPnP with existing foobar2000 components.
is it worth continuing the fight in this case?

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #11 –
Quote from: papavlos on
Looking at the installed components screenshot: actually you can uninstall foo_out_asio component because the second foo_out_asio+dsd already does the same.
Yep, I know, although these components do not interfere with each other, anyways thank You for advice  ;)
Quote from: papavlos on
I second Case remark: can you connect HiFiMAN to the router? or use a switch? To be sure that your computer uses just one network card at a time.
For sure, but it requires some time to make 15m cable or find a switch  :)

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #12 –
Quote from: eEzZ on
although for this I will have to make a cable about 15 meters long, which will undoubtedly affect the signal quality
You could leave the DAC connected next to to the router with any short cable. Just having it connected and powered up would be enough to see if it gets detected. I'd recommend powering it up after it is connected to the network. It may only try IP-acquisition one time on boot.
Longer cable will do nothing to quality. Normal gigabit ethernet cable can be 100 meters long and it will still move the bits flawlessly. Hifiman specs and none of the reviews tell what kind of ethernet port it has, but I assume it's a gigabit port. DSD requires a lot of bandwidth to transfer, only for most of it to be filtered out before playing.

Quote from: eEzZ on
My task was to connect the DAC to the computer directly, using a high-quality  7th Cat patch cord, in order to get maximum sound quality
Category 7 just validates the cable to be able to transfer data with higher speeds. It will do nothing to the quality when used with slower transmissions. You can use the cheapest Cat5e cable and there won't be a difference in output.

Quote from: eEzZ on
is it worth continuing the fight in this case?
Certainly. And perhaps the foo_input_sacd author creates UPnP output equivalent too, if he already hasn't.
 

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #13 –
Hi, guys!
So, I tried to connect the DAC to the router, first with a long cable that I made (see photo). In this case, the DAC received a new IP address via DHCP, and began to be recognized by both ROON and FB2K (see screenshots), so You're right in your assumption that the network configuration is of decisive importance for FB2K in this case, as well as in the fact that this is a UPnP device. The LAN port in the DAC has a 100 Mbit interface. In addition, the length of the cable, and its quality, are of great importance. Even ROON couldnt play audio on a long cable, then I took the DAC outside, to the router, and connected it with a short shielded cable, ROON began to play tracks, stuttering very badly, and lowering the playback quality to PCM 44.1 kHz. FB2K couldnt play anything. I'm sure that the reason is in the router, I have the SERCOMM RV6699 model, while in all other respects this router is quiet good to me. Perhaps, for streaming audio in the router I need to create a separate profile, while it provides cable TV and Internet at maximum speed without delays and interruptions.

Conclusions:
1. HiFiMAN Goldenwave Serenade is a UPnP device.
2. For correct operation with FB2K it must be connected to a router.
3. The length of the cable and its quality, as well as the router model, matter.

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #14 –
If your cable is correctly constructed so that the twisted pairs are what they should be (see for example here) the cable would definitely not be a problem. Also your router seems to have gigabit ethernet ports and I don't see any complaints about its switch chipset not being able to do simple switching fast enough.

If you have two computers you can easily measure the transmission speed of the cable and the router's switch. Run iperf3 server on one machine and plug another computer to the router with this cable and run iperf3 client there. The client can measure transmission speed both ways. With gigabit ethernet you should get 900+ Mbps transfer speeds. That is definitely enough to play <10 Mbps audio streams without stuttering.

The foo_out_upnp screenshot troubles me. If even querying the supported formats fails, it sounds like the device has very loose definition of standard compliance.

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #15 –
Quote from: eEzZ on
Hi, guys!
...
Conclusions:
1. HiFiMAN Goldenwave Serenade is a UPnP device.
...

Thank you very much for your report!
You may be THE FIRST in the whole Internet who has checked and published this fact!
Which is - as a matter of fact - great news for everyone! We have a very decent device to chose as a UPnP/DLNA renderer.

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Case on
....
The foo_out_upnp screenshot troubles me. If even querying the supported formats fails, it sounds like the device has very loose definition of standard compliance.

For me - there is great hope, that the manufacturer will update the software.
They are not blind and deaf for the market of free and open source software.

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Case on
If your cable is correctly constructed so that the twisted pairs are what they should be (see for example here) the cable would definitely not be a problem. Also your router seems to have gigabit ethernet ports and I don't see any complaints about its switch chipset not being able to do simple switching fast enough.

If you have two computers you can easily measure the transmission speed of the cable and the router's switch. Run iperf3 server on one machine and plug another computer to the router with this cable and run iperf3 client there. The client can measure transmission speed both ways. With gigabit ethernet you should get 900+ Mbps transfer speeds. That is definitely enough to play <10 Mbps audio streams without stuttering.
For sure everything is good with cable, I'm making ethernet cables since 1991 and have made thousand of 'em, and of course it was checked with network tester. Moreover new short shielded factory patch cord gave almost the same result (a bit better - ROON began to playback, if this can be named this way). As well as everything is good with router, but it looks like it's some way incompatible with DAC, or should be configured for streeming, but every audiophil knows that for Hi-Fi streeming should be used special switches and routers, for example something like Silent Angel Bonn N8, also if You read FAQ from HiFiMAN, You will know what attention they pay to the network cables quality.
Quote from: Case on
The foo_out_upnp screenshot troubles me. If even querying the supported formats fails, it sounds like the device has very loose definition of standard compliance.
Don't worry - this device properties page was opened when device was offline already, so I think everything was good there.

Anyways thank You so much for Your help and support, and be sure now I'll found a way to make it working, and will post a final result here, at least now I know which direction to dig in  ;)

Re: FB2K playing on LAN port - is it possible???

Reply #18 –
The network tester in your picture just shows that all pairs work. It doesn't check signal loss or anything else. The network cable works over long distances because the twisted pairs cancel any interference.

The audiophile knowledge regarding anything digital is unfortunately complete bogus. Audiophile network equipment is special only in their ability to make ignorant people spend excessive amounts of money. If you work or are familiar with technology you should know how simple it is to transmit bits losslessly over a cable. Here we are losslessly communicating over probably thousands of kilometers through internet. No audiophile networking gear involved. And it's much easier for your computer to send the audio data to your DAC's network port. The device will then buffer the data for N milliseconds and start playing. It doesn't even need to get a constant stream of bits, just enough every now and then not to empty its buffer. Also router is not involved in local area network playback. There is no routing, only super fast switching.

But I do hope you get the UPnP playback working. Though I'm curious about the decision that DSD512 only works over network and not through USB. USB2 has much more bandwidth than 100 Mbps network.